To Be in Heaven, You Must Be Catholic

[Rob03]

Ok. I get the ‘and’ part. I guess my question is what happens when tradition doesn’t follow the Bible? What takes precedent, the Bible or tradition? For instance, Jesus having bothers and sisters. In Mark it talks about Jesus having brothers and sisters but Catholic tradition teaches Mary only conceived Jesus.

 

[clem456]

So when Jesus came we became the catholic, which means universal in greek. I get we are united in the body of Christ. But to take the word catholic and turn it into religion blows my mind. There are so many scriptures in the new and Old Testament that say to trust in religion, which is man made, is just foolishness. I just don’t get it.

Think about this for a second.

The Scriptures were not handed to us intact. We can all agree on that. (that in itself blows sola scriptura right out of the water, but…)

Jesus Christ died and ascended to heaven, leaving who to carry on his mission?
Human beings. Jesus himself entrusted his mission to human beings. To trust in Christ is to also trust in Tradition. You can’t separate the two.
He might, if he wished, be sitting on a visible throne even today, guiding the world’s affairs. He does not. He handed off trust and authority to people.

 

[Genesis315]

Christianity is a religion. You believe it is necessary to have faith in Christ to be saved right? Then religion matters. When did “religion” become a bad word for Christians?

It’s necessary to belong to the Catholic Church because it is necessary to belong to Christ’s Body. Being born again refers to Baptism. Through baptism, we essentially die as a member of Adam’s body, subject to sin and death, and are born again as a member of Christ’s body, receiving salvation from Him, the Head of His Body. Since the Catholic Church is the body of Christ, Baptism is therefore like the “door” to enter the Church.

Of course, Baptism itself is not enough. Even if one believes in Jesus and is baptized, but one makes a perverse act of the will to separate oneself from His Body (though heresy, schism, or apostacy), then one cannot be saved. Furthermore, one must persevere in grace and charity to be saved–just being born again won’t save you if you don’t finish the race.

 

[Rob03]

My salvation is in Jesus. I put my full faith and trust in him because I’ve seen what he has done in my life. Once I put my trust in him he delivered me through so many trails and tribulations. Not only does God’s word tell me to put my faith and trust into him but I’ve also experienced his love and power. Religion or tradition couldn’t deliver me like Jesus did.

 

[Rob03]

Christianity is a religion. You believe it is necessary to have faith in Christ to be saved right? Then religion matters. When did “religion” become a bad word for Christians?

It’s necessary to belong to the Catholic Church because it is necessary to belong to Christ’s Body. Being born again refers to Baptism. Through baptism, we essentially die as a member of Adam’s body, subject to sin and death, and are born again as a member of Christ’s body, receiving salvation from Him, the Head of His Body. Since the Catholic Church is the body of Christ, Baptism is therefore like the “door” to enter the Church.

Of course, Baptism itself is not enough. Even if one believes in Jesus and is baptized, but one makes a perverse act of the will to separate oneself from His Body (though heresy, schism, or apostacy), then one cannot be saved. Furthermore, one must persevere in grace and charity to be saved–just being born again won’t save you if you don’t finish the race.

I agree with you that just because you believe doesn’t mean you get eternal salvation if you continue to live in sin. I also agree that Christianity is a form of religion. Religion means the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God. So what you are saying is if I’m not Catholic I’m not a part of Christ’s body and the only way to become part of his body is to convert to Catholicism?

 

[clem456]

My salvation is in Jesus. I put my full faith and trust in him because I’ve seen what he has done in my life. Once I put my trust in him he delivered me through so many trails and tribulations. Not only does God’s word tell me to put my faith and trust into him but I’ve also experienced his love and power. Religion or tradition couldn’t deliver me like Jesus did.

You trust in Jesus. How do YOU know Jesus? He is not here in his human form to rule us and get to know us through conversation etc…He has died, resurrected, and ascended.
How do you know him? That knowledge is tradition for you.

 

[ffg]

Ok. I get the ‘and’ part. I guess my question is what happens when tradition doesn’t follow the Bible? What takes precedent, the Bible or tradition? For instance, Jesus having bothers and sisters. In Mark it talks about Jesus having brothers and sisters but Catholic tradition teaches Mary only conceived Jesus.

Sorry, had to step away.

You are my brother (I guess I shouldn’t assume you are Male), I don’t believe our mother’s were the same as I have only sisters.

Why is it important to take this passage from Mark literally, but not John 6?

If you believe in Jesus, why not believe Jesus?

 

[ProdigalSun]

Provocative title, eh?

I hoped to get your attention, because I’m floating this argument which I put together this morning.

1. Jesus only has one body.
2. To be in heaven, one must be a member of the body of Christ
3. The body of Christ is the Church.
4. The Church instituted by Christ has a name – the Catholic Church.
   Therefore, to be in heaven, one must be a member of the Catholic Church.

I anticipate some possible objection to 1 and much rejection to 4, but let’s see how it unfolds.

I look forward to reading your thoughts for and against.

Technically this is correct. Everyone is Catholic when they get to heaven some just don’t know it yet.

Peace!

 

[ProdigalSun]

Ok. I get the ‘and’ part. I guess my question is what happens when tradition doesn’t follow the Bible? What takes precedent, the Bible or tradition? For instance, Jesus having bothers and sisters. In Mark it talks about Jesus having brothers and sisters but Catholic tradition teaches Mary only conceived Jesus.

Bible comes out of Tradition, If read in the light of tradition the Bible does not contradict tradition.

 

[Rob03]

Read the book of Acts. Jesus appeared to Paul after ascending into heaven. It is still possible to have a personal relationship with Jesus. He speaks and appears all the time with those he knows. “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ (Matthew 7:21-23 NKJV)

 

[Rob03]

Sorry, had to step away.

You are my brother (I guess I shouldn’t assume you are Male), I don’t believe our mother’s were the same as I have only sisters.

Why is it important to take this passage from Mark literally, but not John 6?

If you believe in Jesus, why not believe Jesus?

Yes we are brothers in Christ. But this passage “Is this not the carpenter, the Son of Mary, and brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon? And are not His sisters here with us?” So they were offended at Him.” (Mark 6:3) specifically talks about his biological brothers and sisters.

 

[Randy_Carson]

This is just ridiculous. The Bible, the one true source, states in John 3:5, “Most assuredly I say to you , unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” You MUST BE BORN AGAIN TO ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. It has nothing to do if you are catholic or not. Salvation is not determined by religion. Joel 2:32 states, “whoever call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” Romans 10:9-10 states, “that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”
Also, I’ve seen posts where they say, “pray the rosary. It’s powerful.” Pleas show me where in the Bible it states Mary can grant you salvation. Acts 4:11-12 states, “The stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ Nor is there salvation in any other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” Hebrews 1:5-15 states, “For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son”? But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.” And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.” But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.” And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment; Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail.” But to which of the angels has He ever said: “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”? Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?:” Jesus has the power. All the saints and angels bow down to Jesus Christ!
Colossians 2:8 reads, “Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.” Believing anything besides the Bible is foolishness! I beg and plead to every one of you to just open up your Bible and read his word. Reading the Bible would put an end to all this foolishness.

I beg and plead to you to just READ the thread more carefully.

 

[Randy_Carson]

As a non-Catholic Christian, I am so confused by this… Where in the Bible does it say that the Church was to be named “Catholic”?

See post #513.

Why do Catholics believe that all others who claim Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and have been baptised in the Holy Trinity, and who partake of the Eucharist, and who pray to the same God, giving Him honor and glory in all they do and say to the best of their ability, are going to Hell? Are those Christians pagan?

We don’t. And this entire thread is exactly about that.

I agree with #s 1, 2 and 3. I just have a hard time understanding #4 because of #s 1, 2 and 3. Please explain to me so that I can be more informed, not because I don’t believe in one church in Jesus’ name.

Is the Church the body of Christ?
How many bodies does Jesus have?
Does the Church, the Body of Christ, have a name?

See post #513.

 

[Randy_Carson]

So the argument is there is going to be religion in heaven?

Nope. Just Catholics.

Seriously…read the thread.

 

[clem456]

I’ve always loved this prayer of Jesus’. I like to think of it as the “hand-off” prayer.

Prayer for the Son

1THESE things Jesus spoke, and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said: Father, the hour is come, glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee. 2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he may give eternal life to all whom thou hast given him. 3Now this is eternal life: That they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4I have glorified thee on the earth;** I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do**. 5And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself, with the glory which I had, before the world was, with thee.

Prayer for the Disciples

6 **I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou hast given me **out of the world. Thine they were, and to me thou gavest them; and they have kept thy word. 7Now they have known, that all things which thou hast given me, are from thee: 8Because the words which thou gavest me, I have given to them; and they have received them, and have known in very deed that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them whom thou hast given me: because they are thine: 10And all my things are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. 11And now I am not in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name whom thou has given me; that they may be one, as we also are. 12While I was with them, I kept them in thy name. Those whom thou gavest me have I kept; and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the scripture may be fulfilled.

13And now I come to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy filled in themselves. 14I have given them thy word, and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world; as I also am not of the world. 15I pray not that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from evil. 16They are not of the world, as I also am not of the world. 17Sanctify them in truth. Thy word is truth. 18As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19And for them do I sanctify myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth.

Prayer for all Believers

20And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me; 21That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, as we also are one: 23I in them, and thou in me; that they may be made perfect in one: and the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast also loved me. 24Father, I will that where I am, they also whom thou hast given me may be with me; that they may see my glory which thou hast given me, because thou hast loved me before the creation of the world.

25Just Father, the world hath not known thee; but I have known thee: and these have known that thou hast sent me. 26And I have made known thy name to them, and will make it known; that the love wherewith thou hast loved me, may be in them, and I in them.

 

[PRmerger]

Ok. I get the ‘and’ part. I guess my question is what happens when tradition doesn’t follow the Bible? What takes precedent, the Bible or tradition? For instance, Jesus having bothers and sisters. In Mark it talks about Jesus having brothers and sisters but Catholic tradition teaches Mary only conceived Jesus.

They may have been Jesus’ brothers and sisters, but they did not come from Mary.

There is nothing in the Bible that says that Mary had other children.

That, ironically, is a tradition that you have believed that doesn’t follow the Bible.

 

[PRmerger]

My salvation is in Jesus. I put my full faith and trust in him because I’ve seen what he has done in my life. Once I put my trust in him he delivered me through so many trails and tribulations. Not only does God’s word tell me to put my faith and trust into him but I’ve also experienced his love and power.

This is very Catholic, Rob!

Religion or tradition couldn’t deliver me like Jesus did.

Well, yes and no. Only Christ delivers us, that is true.

But everyone and everything that is in Christ also delivers you. Thus, the Catholic Church and Sacred Tradition deliver you.

How so?

Well, you would not know a single word that Jesus uttered, or any of the Evangelists uttered…except through the Catholic Church declaring for you that these were the words of God.

 

[jmcrae]

As a non-Catholic Christian, I am so confused by this… Where in the Bible does it say that the Church was to be named “Catholic”?

The name is not the important thing - the important thing is, where it comes from.

When you look at the history of the Catholic Church, you see an unbroken line of Popes going back to the Apostle Peter. Then you ask, “How did the Apostle Peter get to be the Pope of the Catholic Church?” and you find in the Scriptures, in two places, Jesus gives authority to Peter to act in His name as Shepherd of the Church - first, in Matthew 16, and then in John 21.

Then you look at other churches to see where they came from, and you find that they were break-away sects from other churches, and you trace all this breaking away back, and you come to four churches that broke away from the Catholic Church during the 16th century (the 1500s) - they were, the Lutherans, the Anglicans, the Mennonites, and lastly, the Calvinists (including the Presbyterians, who were the English-speaking branch of the Calvinists).

When these groups of people broke away from the Church, they lost the Christian priesthood, which then took away their ability to have the Sacraments, which are the ordinary means of grace to transmit God’s salvation into our lives.

Why do Catholics believe that all others who claim Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and have been baptised in the Holy Trinity, and who partake of the Eucharist, and who pray to the same God, giving Him honor and glory in all they do and say to the best of their ability, are going to Hell? Are those Christians pagan?

We have no way of knowing what their eternal destiny might be. All we know is that they don’t receive grace in the way that Christ established for us to receive it. Does this mean they can’t receive it at all? That part is a mystery. We simply have no way of knowing.

 

[jmcrae]

What you are referring to is the New Testament. Read the Old Testament. Do you believe anything the Bible has to say or is are beliefs based off catholic tradition? I’m interested in how catholic tradition differs from the Bible?

Why would it? The Bible is a Catholic book. The over-all context of the Scriptures is the Holy Tradition of the Catholic Church. We understand what we read in the Bible through the lens of the Holy Tradition given to us by the Apostles, which is transmitted to us through the rites and prayers of the Church.

 

[jmcrae]

So when Jesus came we became the catholic, which means universal in greek. I get we are united in the body of Christ. But to take the word catholic and turn it into religion blows my mind. There are so many scriptures in the new and Old Testament that say to trust in religion, which is man made, is just foolishness. I just don’t get it.

To trust in man-made religion is foolish, yes. But not all religion is man-made. Jesus created the Catholic Church and gave it to the Apostle Peter.