To have a child or not to have a child

[LongingSoul]

I’ve read a Sinner’s Guide to Natural Family Planning. I still don’t have peace about choosing either option. I’m curious and would like to ask for help and advice.

I’ve never heard of that book but if its authentic, its probably a good thing it didn’t influence you one way or the other in what should be a whole of life and personal decision between your wife and yourself.

My experience of deciding when to start (which started 26 years ago) didn’t really involve the financial factor because I’ve never been someone who likes shopping or fancy things. (That’s just me and I’m not agin the appreciation of material things) I did want to get a good grasp of NFP though so decided to practice periodic abstinence for the first 6 months or so. I’m glad I did that. The day I started to think ‘I wonder if we should get pregnant now’ was the day we started trying for a baby because I generally have a good trust in my gut instincts. God always makes things work when I do that.

The other thing about how to plan that I found was… don’t be too anal about it. I always wanted to have a large family of bouncy kids and lots of happiness with the hard work. Before marriage my husband couldn’t care less about the question and was happy to leave it with me. Gradually though, things emerged that altered all the ‘anything goes-ness’. (My first was stillborn and that threw my faith in God and my confidence in my own body, into the mightiest of tailspins). When we brought my second baby home, I realised quite quickly that I’m a pretty hopeless mother practically speaking. I had no clue about the things that all my friends seemed to be sailing through instinctively with their babies.

I had two more children and life just got more and more horrible, but I kept faith that it all meant something. By this time my husband could see that having more children was not ideal. It wasn’t till the school years came that two of the three were promptly officially diagnosed autistic spectrum. That made sense of a lot of the earlier confusion and problems but that became my focus of parental attention after that. We could have financially supported a lot more children because my husband began studying for a computer science degree the year we got married and got a great job at the 7 year mark of marriage. But physically, emotionally and spiritually, I can see I wasn’t equipped to be the mother of a large family.

All turned out reasonably well for the two who struggled with autistic spectrum but the middle one who was neglected by me which I didn’t realise at the time but can see in the horrible light of retrospect, has a lot of resentment and rebellion issues that plague our relationship. I wish I could have been better at that but you don’t know everything when you start out.

What was the point of all that rambling? I can’t remember. Just I guess my advice would be give your instincts a fair hearing as well as all the other considerations which are also important. When you get that warm feeling of what it would be like with a little family and wanting to have a little baby to cuddle, that’s a good message. Thinking too hard on ‘are we ready’ or being too concerned with wanting to be ‘holy’ through having lots of kids… those probably aren’t meant to be the primary messages.

 

[Kelfa28]

A lot of the people who are more blase about that kind of thing had most or all of their kids before car seat regulations became so challenging in the 1980s. If you had your kid(s) before Bush 1 was President, you got to toss however many kids in and just go. Whole different world.

Exactly.

Baby would be in mom’s arms on the trip home from the hospital.

I’ve seen pictures of my BIL’s oldest sister in their mom’s arms heading home…and that was taken in 79’ I think.

Now the hospital literally won’t let you leave until you have a car seat and they’ve inspected it and watched you put your baby in it.

Some maternity floors will escort you to the car to see you put the baby in.

Also…if you get into even a fender bender and the kid gets taken to the hospital you can’t leave without obtaining a new car seat.

Even if the car seat and the kid are perfectly fine…it’s a liability for the hospital and they can report you if you don’t comply.

 

[Book_Worm]

I cannot believe for one moment that on my deathbed I will lament: “Oh Lord! why didn’t we wait until my husband finished his graduate degree to have Johnny! We’d have been such a happier family. Please, take him back.”

Have the child, struggle, and be grateful. Can you imagine the people living in Christ’s time who wanted to put off a child until they could afford a bigger donkey?

My DD was born almost nine years to the day after we were married for a variety of reasons. It was quite a good thing that it happened that way. The younger me had a very difficult time adjusting to marriage and I was much more self-centered and had much less patience. I cannot tell you how many times DD has told me that I was a remarkable mother and that she looks to me as a model she hopes to emulate. That would not be true if she had entered our lives six or seven or eight years earlier.

I do not regret for one minute that I had that time to grow and mature before I had a child. I may have regrets on my death bed, but not having a child early in our marriage will not be one of them.

 

[jlc2k2]

NFP

My wife and I (married last december) just got out of debt. We’ve finally paid off our student loans and we’ve now entered the debate onto wheather to have kids now or wait a little bit. I would like to know what you all think.

My wife is planning on staying at home with the kids. Right now, she is working a good science job, and I’m working in engineering. We are right out of college, so we have no significant savings. Two cars, both paid off. We are currently debating to have kids now (stop abstaining during fertle periods) or wait 6 months, then start to try for kids. We really want a house eventually, as we’re planning on having a good amount of kids if everything works out.

We aren’t in any particular financial hardship. I calculate with our current spending, on just my salary, we have an extra buffer of about 300/month. This can be increased with reduced entertainment and reduced chartiy contributions if necessary. Right now though, with her working, we have an extra of 3000/month! We used that windfall to pay off our debt quickly, and now are eyeing a downpayment on a house after we build an emergency fund. Turns out these are super expsensive. For a $180,000 house (nothing fancy), it’s $36,000 for a good downpayment. On my salary, that will take years and years to save for. We wouldn’t have much extra for college savings, car replacements when they break down, ect.

If we waited just a little bit, we could have a near downpayment by the time the baby was born. 6 months of waiting, and we have half the downpayment saved up before we start trying to concieve. Assuming we concieve right away, that’s the whole thing by the time the baby is born. We could bide our time and stay in our apartment for awhile (one baby doesn’t need a house), but we’d be secure and when we need a house, we can get one.

We are torn as to whether this is an acceptable reason to wait to have kids. We can save literally 10x better with her working, and it is very important for us for her to be able to stay home and quit her job with the kid. Of course, read around the internet on Catholic sites and you’ll find widly varying points of view. From “the couple knows best”, to if you aren’t in absolute poverty, you are committing sin by abstaining during the fertile period. I’ve prayed about the decision, I’ve read a Sinner’s Guide to Natural Family Planning. I still don’t have peace about choosing either option. I’m curious and would like to ask for help and advice.

Have you thought about not just flipping a switch? Instead of saying “this month we’re using NFP and next month we’re not”, you can just loosen the rules a bit. Yes, you may conceive that first cycle but you don’t sound like you would be in a bad position if it did happen. And by just loosening the rules, you do decrease the chances that you’ll conceive right away.

That’s pretty much how we ended up with the kids we have so far. (In other words, this is the part that describes what we did, not necessarily what anyone else should or shouldn’t do.) Financially, we were in a decent position when we got married but that fell apart when the recession hit. We never stopped using NFP really, but as our financial position improved we would take chances on questionable nights and push the limits a bit more. And one night, that pushing turned into my oldest.

18 months later things were looking better again. We took another chance one night and bam. Twins. At that point, finances were the least of our reasons to avoid.

Now my twins are 3 years old. We’ve made great strides in our financial portfolio (paid off the van, are set to pay off all of our credit card debt by the spring, and have built some ok savings). For the first time in 8 years of marriage, we are actively trying to conceive. Technically, the only time we haven’t used NFP in our marriage was when I was pregnant. And yet we have 2 not-quite-surprise, not-quite-planned kids and one complete surprise (AKA twin B). So there can be middle ground between strict use of NFP to avoid and just seeing what happens (or actively trying to conceive).

 

[jlc2k2]

We are saving for one now, TYVM. Nothing fancy mind you, probably just a small burro. But it’ll be OUR burro.

 

[Xantippe]

My DD was born almost nine years to the day after we were married for a variety of reasons. It was quite a good thing that it happened that way. The younger me had a very difficult time adjusting to marriage and I was much more self-centered and had much less patience. I cannot tell you how many times DD has told me that I was a remarkable mother and that she looks to me as a model she hopes to emulate. That would not be true if she had entered our lives six or seven or eight years earlier.

I do not regret for one minute that I had that time to grow and mature before I had a child. I may have regrets on my death bed, but not having a child early in our marriage will not be one of them.

I think there are some philosophical and practical issues with wishing that one had more kids.

For instance, if I had had some earlier kids, would I still have the kids I’ve got (genetically speaking)? Almost certainly not.

Also, even if I had genetically identical children to the ones I have now, but in a different birth order, I’m afraid they would be profoundly different children.

 

[Convert_in_99]

A lot of the people who are more blase about that kind of thing had most or all of their kids before car seat regulations became so challenging in the 1980s. If you had your kid(s) before Bush 1 was President, you got to toss however many kids in and just go. Whole different world.

While I firmly believe car seat regulations as being one of the few good things our government did, it is very true that it’s the “little laws here” and the “little laws there” of our modern society that has made kids intrinsically less affordable and more difficult to raise. Take as another example letting kids go play freely at neighbors houses without having to think much about it save a curfew. I miss those days (which still existed in the 80’s and early 90’s.) I’m sure those endless hours of play at other peoples yards or houses gave my mother a much needed respit, almost daily in the summer!

 

[Xantippe]

Have you thought about not just flipping a switch? Instead of saying “this month we’re using NFP and next month we’re not”, you can just loosen the rules a bit. Yes, you may conceive that first cycle but you don’t sound like you would be in a bad position if it did happen. And by just loosening the rules, you do decrease the chances that you’ll conceive right away.

That’s very reasonable.

 

[Xantippe]

While I firmly believe car seat regulations as being one of the few good things our government did, it is very true that it’s the little laws here and little laws there of our modern society that has made kids intrinsically less affordable and more difficult to raise. Take as another example letting kids go play freely at neighbors houses without having to think much about it save a curfew. I miss those days (which still existed in the 80’s and early 90’s. I’m sure those endless hours of play at other peoples yards or houses gave my mother a much needed respit, almost daily in the summer!

And then there’s the issue of leaving kids alone.

You can’t leave children alone in cars anymore. (That’s definitely a good thing in hotter climates.)

Likewise, you have to think carefully about leaving pre-teens alone at home for almost any length of time. I was just reading that in Illinois, it’s against the law to leave children under 14 home alone.

childwelfare.gov/pubpdfs/homealone.pdf

 

[Convert_in_99]

And then there’s the issue of leaving kids alone.

You can’t leave children alone in cars anymore. (That’s definitely a good thing in hotter climates.)

Likewise, you have to think carefully about leaving pre-teens alone at home for almost any length of time. I was just reading that in Illinois, it’s against the law to leave children under 14 home alone.

childwelfare.gov/pubpdfs/homealone.pdf

Your kidding! That’s ridiculous! I was babysitting for neighbors at 12. Also you can’t stay home alone until 14, but you can join the army at 18! Say WHAT?

Also, I ENJOYED staying in the car and not having to go inside every store my mom needed to go to. I’m certain I was doing this by age 10/11 at least. And my mom always trusted me enough to leave the keys in the car so I could turn on the air conditioning if need be. Never a second thought about it. You trusted kids more and earlier back then. Kids in general were far more grown up and responsible and trustworthy. You had to be, it was just a way of life.

 

[PhiloMed]

Ooh! Goody gumdrops another fight thread for NFP!!! :bounce:

Where do you keep coming up with this? Nobody here is debating the pros and cons of NFP. This is about the necessity of having a sound financial platform.

Why do you insist on finding a problem where there isn’t one?

 

[Convert_in_99]

Where do you keep coming up with this? Nobody here is debating the pros and cons of NFP. This is about the necessity of having a sound financial platform.

Why do you insist on finding a problem where there isn’t one?

People are using it to say whether or not NFP is justifiable if you are in a certain financial position. Other people seemed to get that out of it too. The OP was wanting to know if he had a serious enough reason to continue postponing pregnancy for six more months (using NFP.)

I can see how you would see it your way too.

 

[lax16]

I think it is possible to split the difference–or at least I hope it is!

When I was a newish mom, I did it in the opposite direction. We were continually buying stuff for the kids–toys, craft supplies, whatever. Round about the time my oldest was 5 or 6 and I was getting into Dave Ramsey, I got sick and tired of the way she was wasting construction paper, coloring books (color three pages and discard), tape (wad scotch tape up into balls, ask for more), etc. I also got sick and tired of the continual panhandling from the kids at gift shops and the grocery store. At that point, I decided that the free ride was over–the kids were going to start buying their own craft supplies and toys (except for Christmas and birthdays) and they could get one $2-3 item each at the grocery store.

I know what you are saying and you make an interesting point.

The difference is the environment the older kids were raised in vs the younger one. We truly didn’t have the money and the older kids knew that. They were grateful for the little things. We were around families in similar situations. They were just simpler. Life was simple. Entertainment was walks to the park and learning to ride a bike.

The younger one is pushing for a cell phone (she’s almost 10) and is very aware of what everyone else has. I wish we could live around like-minded families again. Ones that are educated but really and truly appreciate the simple things in life.

At the same time, I started creating money-making opportunities for the kids in addition to the birthday and Christmas checks they get from grandparents. They could clean their rooms and the living room or do a page of workbook (25 cents each per 100% correct Kumon page) and get paid. It’s been years since we started that program, and it’s had miraculous results. The kids are no longer gimme-gimme fiends in stores. If they want something, they can earn the money and buy it with their own money, and they understand that perfectly. If they aren’t willing to do that, they don’t really want it that bad. My oldest is just starting to save (she’s a spender like her mommy), but her younger brother already has substantial savings for a 10-year-old. (There is a bit of an art form in deciding how much to pay, though, and I know a lot of families have moral concerns with regard to paying kids for stuff they feel the kids ought to be doing anyway. We have so far dealt with this by having two different categories of chores–the mandatory “free” ones and the usually optional paid ones.)

Great ideas. I have to warn you though (call me negative if you wish ) - when kids know that they have money they talk about it with their classmates, they can brag. Some kids even use money to buy things their parents don’t approve of once they turn 18.

Not every kid grows up and buys a car with his hard earned money, or buys a car mom and dad approve of. Some buy electronics or tattoos. Suddenly, mom and dad can’t tell their kids to buy a new car with air bags and shoulder belts - they want the classic camero with no airbags and lap belts. Hey, it’s my money and I earned it and you can’t tell me what to do.

I am totally against kids having money. It has served us very well when our son wanted to buy the unsafe car, wanted a tattoo and a trip to Europe instead of college. I want control when my kids are young adults and this is the only way to do it with some kids.

We continue to pay for the stuff we want for them–private school, therapy, camps, classes, music lessons, sheet music, etc. (There is some sneakiness with regard to the camps and classes–our oldest has done a lot of home ec type stuff there, which our family has benefited from a lot.)

As the big kids (13 and 10) have gotten bigger, we’re able to be more and more ambitious as to what kind of projects we can pay them for. This summer, for instance, our smudgy windows in the kitchen and playroom were starting to drive me nuts. We bid the job out to our kids for $15 each and my husband set them up with supplies and a little help here and there. They did a fine job. Next summer, I’d like to do the same thing with regard to heavy cleaning.

My kids do chores too but they earn: the keys to the car for the night, a ride to a friend’s house, spending money for the church festival…

We maintain “savings accounts” for the kids and we’ve decided that we as the bank will give them 3% interest every year to encourage them.

Aside from the character-building aspect of child labor, the kids actually do have some upcoming expenses to save for. My 10-year-old son is already saving seriously for his first car. My 13-year-old daughter is excited about the senior trip to Rome. We have already warned the kids not to expect us to pay for either of those things, given upcoming college expenses.

Dave Ramsey’s book Smart Money, Smart Kids has a lot of good ideas for dealing with kids and money.

I love the idea of teaching kids how to work and develop a strong work ethic. I am totally opposed to them having their own money. I think they should earn privileges and money to go the movies or for a dance.

Our kids have a savings account where birthday money from grandma and grandpa gets deposited. Just the other day my youngest asked if she had money in a savings account and how much did she have. She obviously had been discussing this with some classmates. I shrugged and said I had no idea.

Please be warned - for some kids knowing they have money is not the best thing for them. Each family will have to decide how they are going to handle it, but parents need to be prepared for the day when jr turns 18.

 

[Xantippe]

lax16,

Here are some thoughts I was having while reading your post.

1. We already had an episode of classmates sharing unhelpful info. My older daughter has been mother’s helpering from time to time for $5 an hour, which is a lot of money for an older tween/young teen (given that she’s used to making a dollar or two here or there and that she doesn’t have a lot of needs). Then a kid at school informed her that that was below minimum wage, so daughter was suddenly no longer so pleased with her earnings.

Thanks for nothing, kid at school!

1. Dave Ramsey suggests a matching program for car purchases, which is what he did for his kids. That would help avoid the Camaro issue.

(My parents had a two-door Camaro as their family car back in the 1980s until their third child was born. I assume that was my dad’s pick…)

1. My kids are way littler than yours, but the tattoo story reminds me of the Robin Williams quote, “Cocaine is God’s way of telling you you are making too much money.” I feel the same way about tattoos. Either that or a motorcycle would tempt me to pull the plug on college help, at least for a while.
2. A lot of our kids’ birthday money goes straight into savings. I normally give them 20% in cash and then ask if they’d like to put the rest into the family travel fund, their own savings, etc. I try to make sure that the kids don’t have more than $70-$100 in cash just sitting around, and once it goes into savings, it’s not going to emerge except for an approved item.
3. I have some history with money that makes me determined to make sure our kids have lots of real experiences with it from an early age. When I was a little kid, I’d get small amounts of birthday money from grandmas, but I didn’t really have any other reliable source of income. For the most part, money was just something that would appear at intervals. There wasn’t a strong work-money connection and I don’t think I ever saved for anything as I child, because I had no income to save with. Also, my parents were broke. By the time I was in my mid/later-teens, my parents were less broke and I did have earning opportunities. However, I still didn’t know about saving or budgeting, and frankly, my parents didn’t either. When I got money, it was easy come, easy go. By 16, I was off to college, but worked summers for the family business. By 20, I was a Peace Corps Volunteer working overseas and actually did a very decent job with an envelope system. However, by 22, I was back in the US, married and going hog wild on our combined household income of about $24k. Wheee! It was more money than I had ever had my hands on, and it really went to my head. My husband eventually took over bill-paying and I was very much in the dark about the details of our finances from then on. It was even worse when I wasn’t working anymore and we had a baby, even though our income went up–I just didn’t know anything about our money but I was sure that our income was going up soon, so there wasn’t any point in doing anything different for now. I finally came to my senses one kid later, after we’d been living in free housing for several years and I realized that we had more debt than when we’d started and no house downpayment. We were supposed to be saving for a downpayment while living free on campus, but at the time, I was very unclear about the meaning of the word “saving.” I thought the money would just appear magically all by itself, without us doing anything in particular… I started to listen to Dave Ramsey and read the Total Money Makeover. Then we spent the next 6+ years clawing our way out of debt, saving an emergency fund, doing therapy for our autistic oldest, having a third baby, saving a downpayment and then finally buying our house two years ago.

Anyway, from some of my reading, a lot of the problematic behaviors that I was guilty of are classic poor people problems: lack of future orientation and a feast or famine mentality where the money just burns a hole in your pocket once you get it.

Anyway, apologies for the epic, but that’s why I’m willing to roll the dice and let our kids have earning opportunities, (controlled) access to money, and opportunities to save up for large optional purchases. I’m also hoping to get all of them through Financial Peace University at some point and if they live at home during college, I’d really like to put in a mandatory savings program of something like $100 or $200 a month (if at all feasible). They’re going to be legal adults really soon, they’ll probably be out of the house soon, and any of them may wind up marrying young and having children fairly young, so I feel a certain amount of pressure to get this part of their education right.

 

[lax16]

lax16,

Here are some thoughts I was having while reading your post.

1. We already had an episode of classmates sharing unhelpful info. My older daughter has been mother’s helpering from time to time for $5 an hour, which is a lot of money for an older tween/young teen (given that she’s used to making a dollar or two here or there and that she doesn’t have a lot of needs). Then a kid at school informed her that that was below minimum wage, so daughter was suddenly no longer so pleased with her earnings.

Thanks for nothing, kid at school!

That’s hilarious! This is exactly the kind of stuff my kids would react to. The oldest (21) was always telling us his rights and the youngest is always telling us how it’s not fair that so and so has this or that and she doesn’t.

1. Dave Ramsey suggests a matching program for car purchases, which is what he did for his kids. That would help avoid the Camaro issue.

That sounds like it might work, except our oldest would still insist that he is taking his half and buying some piece of junk cool muscle car without airbags and proper seatbelts and that he doesn’t need our half to buy a better car.

He doesn’t talk like that now. But when he was younger the only thing that kept him from making bad decisions was being broke.

1. My kids are way littler than yours, but the tattoo story reminds me of the Robin Williams quote, “Cocaine is God’s way of telling you you are making too much money.” I feel the same way about tattoos. Either that or a motorcycle would tempt me to pull the plug on college help, at least for a while.

Our oldest son would have gotten the tattoo and skipped college if it was up to him.

However, he is currently tattoo-less in college. No small feat I might add.

1. A lot of our kids’ birthday money goes straight into savings. I normally give them 20% in cash and then ask if they’d like to put the rest into the family travel fund, their own savings, etc. I try to make sure that the kids don’t have more than $70-$100 in cash just sitting around, and once it goes into savings, it’s not going to emerge except for an approved item.

My kids do not have their own cash. They have to ask for it. I then get to say things like “where are you going? With who? What do you need money for? If you want money for the movie you need to clean your bathroom.” It really works.

 

[Xantippe]

Our oldest son would have gotten the tattoo and skipped college if it was up to him.

However, he is currently tattoo-less in college. No small feat I might add.

Congratulations!

Here is one of my favorite treatments of tattoos (some non-CAF language):

cracked.com/funny-298-tattoos/

Sample quote: “Tattoos are reverse time machines: with time travel you can send a warning back to your younger self, with tattoos you send a mistake forward to your older self.”

It also has a hilarious map of what different tattoo locations mean.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

One of the things I have liked about Francis is that he is reorienting our perspective on money, wealth, and Catholicism. I think this could be played out in the arena of childbearing as well. i have issues with the current Pope and my own theology but his criticism of western capitalism is not one of them. What it does to our own hearts is nothing more than poison. And this is played out in some marriages in the form of “planning” a family.

As far as good ol dave ramsey. I think some of his “followers” can take it too far and be a little extreme. Just like any real cult of personality…

Here Crisis Magazine zings Ramsey…

crisismagazine.com/2013/of-dave-ramsey-babies-and-birth-control

I find myself in the middle between Dave and Crisis…

But this thread is bound to get nasty at some point. The OP is better off financially now than I was with my third child… So how is it right for one situation but not another…?

Someone will always be offended. Either reacting out of guilt or feeling attracted for not being as “open” to life as one should be or for irresponsibly breeding like rabbits. with no responsible financial plan. Which is why the OPs question is ultimately futile.

 

[lax16]

1. I have some history with money that makes me determined to make sure our kids have lots of real experiences with it from an early age. When I was a little kid, I’d get small amounts of birthday money from grandmas, but I didn’t really have any other reliable source of income. For the most part, money was just something that would appear at intervals. There wasn’t a strong work-money connection and I don’t think I ever saved for anything as I child, because I had no income to save with. Also, my parents were broke. By the time I was in my mid/later-teens, my parents were less broke and I did have earning opportunities. However, I still didn’t know about saving or budgeting, and frankly, my parents didn’t either. When I got money, it was easy come, easy go. By 16, I was off to college, but worked summers for the family business. By 20, I was a Peace Corps Volunteer working overseas and actually did a very decent job with an envelope system. However, by 22, I was back in the US, married and going hog wild on our combined household income of about $24k. Wheee! It was more money than I had ever had my hands on, and it really went to my head. My husband eventually took over bill-paying and I was very much in the dark about the details of our finances from then on. It was even worse when I wasn’t working anymore and we had a baby, even though our income went up–I just didn’t know anything about our money but I was sure that our income was going up soon, so there wasn’t any point in doing anything different for now. I finally came to my senses one kid later, after we’d been living in free housing for several years and I realized that we had more debt than when we’d started and no house downpayment. We were supposed to be saving for a downpayment while living free on campus, but at the time, I was very unclear about the meaning of the word “saving.” I thought the money would just appear magically all by itself, without us doing anything in particular… I started to listen to Dave Ramsey and read the Total Money Makeover. Then we spent the next 6+ years clawing our way out of debt, saving an emergency fund, doing therapy for our autistic oldest, having a third baby, saving a downpayment and then finally buying our house two years ago.

I can really relate to this. However, I have to blame myself and my overly optimistic personality that the money will always be there because my brother and sister are not at all like me. My husband now pays the bills because he goes in to panic mode about not having enough money to cover - much better than my it-will-all-work-out attitude.

The thing is, Dave Ramsey and I would have to agree to disagree on a couple of big issues.

1. Nobody and I mean nobody in my family is driving a clunker to save money. There is no way in heck I would sacrifice putting my loved ones in an old car without the latest safest features that are on the newer cars. I would rather be broke.
2. We are almost going broke paying for Catholic school but there is no way in heck my kids are attending public school in Utah. I think you get my drift on that one.

Anyway, from some of my reading, a lot of the problematic behaviors that I was guilty of are classic poor people problems: lack of future orientation and a feast or famine mentality where the money just burns a hole in your pocket once you get it.

Yes, that sounds familiar.

Anyway, apologies for the epic, but that’s why I’m willing to roll the dice and let our kids have earning opportunities, (controlled) access to money, and opportunities to save up for large optional purchases. I’m also hoping to get all of them through Financial Peace University at some point and if they live at home during college, I’d really like to put in a mandatory savings program of something like $100 or $200 a month (if at all feasible). They’re going to be legal adults really soon, they’ll probably be out of the house soon, and any of them may wind up marrying young and having children fairly young, so I feel a certain amount of pressure to get this part of their education right.

Sounds great! Like I said, each family has to do what works for them.

My husband and I plan on doing Dave Ramsey’s program in the future when I am not so busy bucking the rules.

I would like my children to do it as well once they are more mature.

Bottom line though - things don’t have to be perfect to have a baby. We were really broke and like I said I wouldn’t have changed it for the world. We were all really close and happy.

 

[lax16]

Congratulations!

Here is one of my favorite treatments of tattoos (some non-CAF language):

cracked.com/funny-298-tattoos/

Sample quote: “Tattoos are reverse time machines: with time travel you can send a warning back to your younger self, with tattoos you send a mistake forward to your older self.”

It also has a hilarious map of what different tattoo locations mean.

That is hilarious!!!

At least my son was aiming for “socially acceptable rebellious tattoo zone” and he wanted a Celtic cross- I guess it could have been worse!

 

[Xantippe]

One of the things I have liked about Francis is that he is reorienting our perspective on money, wealth, and Catholicism. I think this could be played out in the arena of childbearing as well. i have issues with the current Pope and my own theology but his criticism of western capitalism is not one of them. What it does to our own hearts is nothing more than poison. And this is played out in some marriages in the form of “planning” a family.

As far as good ol dave ramsey. I think some of his “followers” can take it too far and be a little extreme. Just like any real cult of personality…

Here Crisis Magazine zings Ramsey…

crisismagazine.com/2013/of-dave-ramsey-babies-and-birth-control

I find myself in the middle between Dave and Crisis…

But this thread is bound to get nasty at some point. The OP is better off financially now than I was with my third child… So how is it right for one situation but not another…?

Someone will always be offended. Either reacting out of guilt or feeling attracted for not being as “open” to life as one should be or for irresponsibly breeding like rabbits. with no responsible financial plan. Which is why the OPs question is ultimately futile.

DR is actually very friendly to starting a family under pretty much any and all circumstances, except for the most dire. He says he never tells people to delay starting a family because of financial circumstances. (Although I’m sure you could probably think one up that would stump him.) He sees having children as being a priority no matter what, just as giving (10% is his recommendation) is a priority, no matter what.

In the Crisis quote Becker gives, DR is just pointing out the obvious–that a larger family is not going to be able to get out of debt as fast as a smaller family, all else being equal.

The argument in the Crisis article is essentially:

1. Dave Ramsey teaches extreme measures to get out of debt.
2. Large families can’t do those extreme measures.
3. Therefore Dave Ramsey is against large families.

I don’t think that that follows.

Also, come to think of it, I’ve heard an awful lot of debt free screams from large families on the show, so #2 is dubious.

I’m not very impressed by the author of that Crisis piece:

“Even the Pew Research Center gets this, as demonstrated in their study on parents and kids. “When it comes to feeling happy,” the study concludes, “time with children … beats time at work.” Does this create a paradox for those trying to follow the Ramsey way? You bet! Dave would have those parents out working a second job in order to pare down their debt and work toward a life of leisure in the future. But what does our gut tell us? Second or third job? Naah. Instead, follow Pope Francis’ advice: “Waste time with your children.” And, indeed, welcome another child while you’re at it—the more the merrier! Irresponsible, you say? Imprudent? Perhaps. But you can’t plan for every contingency, and since Catholics—i.e., Catholics who choose to follow the teaching of the Church forbidding contraception—can’t exactly plan ahead anyway, why not throw caution to the wind, and lean heavily on the Providence of God. If He decides to bless you with another child, then it’s His problem to help you make ends meet.”

I come from a family with lots of workaholic dads (which I’m kind of negative about) and you’ll find no greater advocate on CAF than me for the idea that dads need to spend time with their families, but as a former poor kid, Mr. Becker’s phrasing ticks me off. You have a larger family, you work harder and longer to feed and take care of them–that’s how this thing works.