To have a child or not to have a child

[Xantippe]

Here’s one practical note on the subject of Dave Ramsey and families.

In his Baby Steps, DR teaches a $1,000 emergency fund as baby step one:

daveramsey.com/baby-steps

You’re supposed to do baby step two (aggressive debt payment) with only that $1,000 emergency fund.

I think it’s a fair criticism that the $1,000 emergency fund is not actually enough for a family, and particularly not for a bigger family, and it may also not be enough for homeowners. When we paid off our debt, we were a family of four, and I felt much better about doing a variant on the system where we had almost one month of expenses on hand at all times.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Sonorous–congratulations on your recent marriage! We can’t make this decision for you and your wife, but we can share our experiences and some of our thoughts for you to consider.

My husband and I conceived our first child and bought a home within our first year of marriage. Our oldest child is probably around your age, so that all happened a long time ago. Looking back, if we made any mistake there, the mistake was buying the house–which we sold less than two years later for less than we’d paid due to a job transfer. We bought a different house at the new locations, and within a couple of years, we were upside down on* that *mortgage as well. (It turned around before we sold.) Fortunately, my husband’s career and our family life has proved to be better than our real estate investments.

As you calculate your financial spread sheet, there are several unknowns, such as the future housing market and future job opportunities. People responding on this thread faced all kinds of different experiences. We don’t really know what your experiences will be. Will you be promoted at work–or fired? Will the kind of house you want go up in value–or down? Will you stay the house 20 years–or 2? If you put off childbearing in order to save for a mortgage, then lose on that housing investment or need to move and then later discover you face infertility, you will probably deeply regret your choice to postpone. If you have a child and you both lose your jobs and the housing market takes off, you likely won’t be financially comfortable about your choice, (but you’ll love your child.) Who knows what’s ahead for the housing market and the economy?

We can’t predict the future, but we can watch trends and take guesses at what will happen. The overall trend of the last several decades is that the child birth rate for people such as you and your wife has declined with people postponing childbearing for a number of reasons, like attending college and establishing careers, while at the same time there’s been a dramatic increase in the out-of-wedlock birthrate. This will affect all kinds of things in our larger economic future. As individuals (and couples) we take a financial risk when we have children–but our society takes a huge financial risk when encouraging bright, young couples such as yourself to post-pone child bearing.

So, from my perspective as a member of society, I want people such as you and your wife to have children. Lots and lots of children–and waiting makes “lots of children” less likely as fertility declines as women age. You sound smart. You sound faithful. If possible, please contribute generously to the gene pool.

As you and your wife think and pray about having a child, here’s an interesting book that presents some of the larger economical and cultural aspects of this very personal decision. amazon.com/What-Expect-When-Ones-Expecting/dp/1594037310/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1444401670&sr=1-1&keywords=what+to+expect+when+no+one%27s+expecting

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

DR is actually very friendly to starting a family under pretty much any and all circumstances, except for the most dire. He says he never tells people to delay starting a family because of financial circumstances. (Although I’m sure you could probably think one up that would stump him.) He sees having children as being a priority no matter what, just as giving (10% is his recommendation) is a priority, no matter what.

In the Crisis quote Becker gives, DR is just pointing out the obvious–that a larger family is not going to be able to get out of debt as fast as a smaller family, all else being equal.

The argument in the Crisis article is essentially:

1. Dave Ramsey teaches extreme measures to get out of debt.
2. Large families can’t do those extreme measures.
3. Therefore Dave Ramsey is against large families.

I don’t think that that follows.

Also, come to think of it, I’ve heard an awful lot of debt free screams from large families on the show, so #2 is dubious.

I’m not very impressed by the author of that Crisis piece:

“Even the Pew Research Center gets this, as demonstrated in their study on parents and kids. “When it comes to feeling happy,” the study concludes, “time with children … beats time at work.” Does this create a paradox for those trying to follow the Ramsey way? You bet! Dave would have those parents out working a second job in order to pare down their debt and work toward a life of leisure in the future. But what does our gut tell us? Second or third job? Naah. Instead, follow Pope Francis’ advice: “Waste time with your children.” And, indeed, welcome another child while you’re at it—the more the merrier! Irresponsible, you say? Imprudent? Perhaps. But you can’t plan for every contingency, and since Catholics—i.e., Catholics who choose to follow the teaching of the Church forbidding contraception—can’t exactly plan ahead anyway, why not throw caution to the wind, and lean heavily on the Providence of God. If He decides to bless you with another child, then it’s His problem to help you make ends meet.”

I come from a family with lots of workaholic dads (which I’m kind of negative about) and you’ll find no greater advocate on CAF than me for the idea that dads need to spend time with their families, but as a former poor kid, Mr. Becker’s phrasing ticks me off. You have a larger family, you work harder and longer to feed and take care of them–that’s how this thing works.

I figured you would not like anything that was not DR approved.
I think dave Ramsey gives excellent advice. And I also think that if everyone followed his advice that we would all die. Literally. There would be a meltdown of economies all over the world. So it is advice that only a certain number can follow. It also follows that to protect his brand and his system, he has to toe the line and give advice that for the sake of consistency may not be the best to an individual or family. I think Dave hides his importance placed on money within a Christian background so as not to catch flack for his systems. But I think there is a danger that many don’t see. Especially those of us who are suckers for the logical and the systematic and the details. I have never met a dave ramsey follower who focused on anything more than money. Even personal spirituality. I also think the Pope and DR would be at severe odds in many issues and I also think Dave should have always had a strict policy to NEVER get involved in this particular subject between a Husband and wife. Perhaps that is the protestant in him, perhaps it is that money guides his every decision… I don’t know but I do know that DR can help many many Catholics who are in trouble and he can also be taken too far. And example of this is his amazingly smart advice to a family who is expecting. Even if it was not “planned” That he encourages you to STOP his program and save save save for mom and baby is smart. So are his tips for keeping the costs down. But that is where it should stop. Even for the couple themselves. In my opinion, if DR is in your bedroom then you are not doing the program right.

 

[Book_Worm]

. . .I’m not very impressed by the author of that Crisis piece:

. . .Imprudent? Perhaps. But you can’t plan for every contingency, and since Catholics—i.e., Catholics who choose to follow the teaching of the Church forbidding contraception—can’t exactly plan ahead anyway, why not throw caution to the wind, and lean heavily on the Providence of God. If He decides to bless you with another child, then it’s His problem to help you make ends meet."

I come from a family with lots of workaholic dads (which I’m kind of negative about) and you’ll find no greater advocate on CAF than me for the idea that dads need to spend time with their families, but as a former poor kid, Mr. Becker’s phrasing ticks me off. You have a larger family, you work harder and longer to feed and take care of them–that’s how this thing works.

I agree. I find this article infuriating. I have relatives who believed that their seven children were “His problem.” Except they were very good at seeing God in everyone and everything around them. Their family helped them over the trouble spots time and again, even their aging parents, who sacrificed their comfort in their old age to provide for their grandchildren. They are first-class moochers, who have passed the tradition on to the next generation. Their oldest DD wrote to all her friends and family asking them to support her for three months when she finished college so she could have a sabbatical after all her hard work. When we sent a lovely engagement gift to their DS, he wrote a very nice TY note that mentioned that he would have appreciated money more. Oh, and every one of the seven children of these very, very conservative Catholics has left the Church.

 

[Xantippe]

I think dave Ramsey gives excellent advice. And I also think that if everyone followed his advice that we would all die. Literally. There would be a meltdown of economies all over the world. So it is advice that only a certain number can follow. It also follows that to protect his brand and his system, he has to toe the line and give advice that for the sake of consistency may not be the best to an individual or family. I think Dave hides his importance placed on money within a Christian background so as not to catch flack for his systems. But I think there is a danger that many don’t see. Especially those of us who are suckers for the logical and the systematic and the details. I have never met a dave ramsey follower who focused on anything more than money. Even personal spirituality. I also think the Pope and DR would be at severe odds in many issues and I also think Dave should have always had a strict policy to NEVER get involved in this particular subject between a Husband and wife. Perhaps that is the protestant in him, perhaps it is that money guides his every decision… I don’t know but I do know that DR can help many many Catholics who are in trouble and he can also be taken too far. And example of this is his amazingly smart advice to a family who is expecting. Even if it was not “planned” That he encourages you to STOP his program and save save save for mom and baby is smart. So are his tips for keeping the costs down. But that is where it should stop. Even for the couple themselves. In my opinion, if DR is in your bedroom then you are not doing the program right.

Some thoughts:

1. DR does tend to nuance things on the radio program when dealing with individuals, as opposed to the books, which tend to be more one-size-fits-all.
2. I don’t know that following DR’s advice would lead to a meltdown of the world economy. We as a family are still spending a lot of money, it’s just that we save it up and spend it in a lump, rather than buying something like a car via payments–we spend money that we already have, rather than money that we expect to have. Also, in some sense it’s safer for the world economy, because we’re not going to default on our loan if there isn’t a loan. Ditto with a home mortgage–a family with substantial equity is much less likely to go into foreclosure. As you may have noticed with the 2008 housing meltdown, low downpayment home loans are inherently more volatile than high downpayment loans.
3. I don’t go around self-identifying as a Dave Ramsey fan in real life. It’s not my primary identity. Also, come to think of it, at least a number of self-described DR fans aren’t really doing the program and are actually just stingy. An example that comes to mind is a friend’s husband, who is very big on their family not spending much on groceries, but wasn’t doing a budget, and had a tendency to randomly go out and buy expensive man toys…I showed my friend my budget sheets and told her that if you’re not doing a budget, it’s not Dave Ramsey.

Also, I have to mention that doing Dave Ramsey immediately increased our family’s charitable giving. We went from $5-10 in the collection plate a week plus irregular giving to nearly 10% (net) charitable giving every month. That’s true for a lot of people.

1. One of the very positive things about DR is that he’s a fantastic marriage guy, even though that isn’t his main deal. He encourages spouses to see the best in each other (nerd and free spirit) and to value each other’s gifts and contributions.

daveramsey.com/blog/nerds-and-free-spirits-can-unite-over-the-budget/

Also, he’s very big on both spouses being involved in the budgeting process, doing a monthly budget meeting every month, planning together, making an agreement together and then sticking to it. This is HUGE.

With my particular background, I had never seen my parents do a budget together and as a child probably never saw or heard a money discussion that didn’t involve a lot of yelling and crying. My mom frequently tried to sneak purchases and financial SNAFUs past my dad–but not very successfully. When my husband and I got married, I immediately defaulted to my parents’ marriage model of “husband as daddy, wife as child,” at least with regard to money. (Ewww.) When I handed over our finances to him when we got married, I totally checked out of adult responsibility for the next 8/9 years. One of the things that Dave Ramsey has given me personally is getting my adulthood back and learning to be a financially responsible partner to my husband. (And believe it or not, DR also helped my parents a lot. I almost don’t recognize my mom these days. She’s so responsible about money!)

There’s also the issue that my husband and I are (usually!) able to model peaceful money discussions to our children and speaking as someone that didn’t grow up with that, that’s absolutely invaluable.

1. I’ve literally never heard DR tell a couple not to have a baby or to delay having a baby. He is pretty explicit about not delaying for money reasons, particularly when talking to young couples that are just starting their families. Here, I think I’m actually more cautious than DR. And part of that is because birth control is part of DR’s Protestant world, and it’s not part of ours. The stakes are much higher for us than they are for standard issue US Evangelicals–if they get into hot water with three closely spaced kids, they can just get sterilized, mom goes to work, and everything is hunky dory (economically speaking, at least). Meanwhile, the faithful Catholic couple has a much longer and tougher road to hoe.
2. I expect Pope Benedict and Dave Ramsey would have a lot of disagreements about political issues. The stuff we’re talking about here isn’t political, though. I bet they’d also agree about a lot, though.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Some thoughts:

1. DR does tend to nuance things on the radio program when dealing with individuals, as opposed to the books, which tend to be more one-size-fits-all.
2. I don’t know that following DR’s advice would lead to a meltdown of the world economy. We as a family are still spending a lot of money, it’s just that we save it up and spend it in a lump, rather than buying something like a car via payments–we spend money that we already have, rather than money that we expect to have. Also, in some sense it’s safer for the world economy, because we’re not going to default on our loan if there isn’t a loan. Ditto with a home mortgage–a family with substantial equity is much less likely to go into foreclosure. As you may have noticed with the 2008 housing meltdown, low downpayment home loans are inherently more volatile than high downpayment loans.
3. I don’t go around self-identifying as a Dave Ramsey fan in real life. It’s not my primary identity. Also, come to think of it, at least a number of self-described DR fans aren’t really doing the program and are actually just stingy. An example that comes to mind is a friend’s husband, who is very big on their family not spending much on groceries, but wasn’t doing a budget, and had a tendency to randomly go out and buy expensive man toys…I showed my friend my budget sheets and told her that if you’re not doing a budget, it’s not Dave Ramsey.

Also, I have to mention that doing Dave Ramsey immediately increased our family’s charitable giving. We went from $5-10 in the collection plate a week plus irregular giving to nearly 10% (net) charitable giving every month. That’s true for a lot of people.

1. One of the very positive things about DR is that he’s a fantastic marriage guy, even though that isn’t his main deal. He encourages spouses to see the best in each other (nerd and free spirit) and to value each other’s gifts and contributions.

daveramsey.com/blog/nerds-and-free-spirits-can-unite-over-the-budget/

Also, he’s very big on both spouses being involved in the budgeting process, doing a monthly budget meeting every month, planning together, making an agreement together and then sticking to it. This is HUGE.

With my particular background, I had never seen my parents do a budget together and as a child probably never saw or heard a money discussion that didn’t involve a lot of yelling and crying. My mom frequently tried to sneak purchases and financial SNAFUs past my dad–but not very successfully. When my husband and I got married, I immediately defaulted to my parents’ marriage model of “husband as daddy, wife as child,” at least with regard to money. (Ewww.) When I handed over our finances to him when we got married, I totally checked out of adult responsibility for the next 8/9 years. One of the things that Dave Ramsey has given me personally is getting my adulthood back and learning to be a financially responsible partner to my husband. (And believe it or not, DR also helped my parents a lot. I almost don’t recognize my mom these days. She’s so responsible about money!)

There’s also the issue that my husband and I are (usually!) able to model peaceful money discussions to our children and speaking as someone that didn’t grow up with that, that’s absolutely invaluable.

1. I’ve literally never heard DR tell a couple not to have a baby or to delay having a baby. He is pretty explicit about not delaying for money reasons, particularly when talking to young couples that are just starting their families. Here, I think I’m actually more cautious than DR. And part of that is because birth control is part of DR’s Protestant world, and it’s not part of ours. The stakes are much higher for us than they are for standard issue US Evangelicals–if they get into hot water with three closely spaced kids, they can just get sterilized, mom goes to work, and everything is hunky dory (economically speaking, at least). Meanwhile, the faithful Catholic couple has a much longer and tougher road to hoe.
2. I expect Pope Benedict and Dave Ramsey would have a lot of disagreements about political issues. The stuff we’re talking about here isn’t political, though. I bet they’d also agree about a lot, though.

I am aware you are a fan.

 

[Xantippe]

I just looked up the transcript with the “incriminating” advice from Dave Ramsey to a mother of 7 in Los Angeles. The piece is entitled “The Clydesdale Pace.” In DR’s Baby Steps, DR talks about “gazelle intensity” in paying off debt, here he offers a slower but still steady alternate pace for the large family. The question (which seems to be a paraphrase more than a quote) is, “Which parts of Dave Ramsey’s program work for large families?”

Here’s Dave Ramsey’s answer in the transcript:

"The program doesn’t change one ounce. What does change is—and you already knew this long before you met Dave Ramsey—when you choose to have seven children, that is called a lot of financial burden. It’s not a criticism; it’s just a mathematical fact. When you break the three- or four-kid plane over into the five, six, seven, eight, nine plane and above, the numbers change pretty dramatically. From one to two to three, you don’t feel it—much. One to three, the cost of raising a kid is not that much different. But when you kick it into overdrive like that, you’ve done two things. One is you extend the time that you’re going to be dealing with kids financially. Two is you’ve got a lot of baby birds to feed. It slows down the plan. It slows down you hitting big financial goals or little financial goals because you’ve got this drain on the math. It’s a wonderful drain; it’s a glorious drain, but it’s a drain.

"It does work, and it works exactly the same, but the point is it’s going to work slower. You don’t have any choice but to do a budget. Just because you have seven kids doesn’t mean that gives you an excuse to live out of control or that living out of control with no game plan is the definition of success. No way. Everybody gets a broken car around the time they start this stuff. It’s like a federal law.

"All of the things that have to do with this, you’ve got to set more emergency categories aside in your budget. You’ve got to budget heavier for food. You’ve got to budget heavier for medical. You’ve got to budget heavier for transportation. You’ve got all these different things pulling at this, and the reality is it doesn’t mean you don’t live with a plan. It just means that your plan clearly states that you’re going to move slowly. You already knew this instinctively. **You’re not going to be fleet of foot and run from the cheetah [of debt] because you’re carrying too much. **You’re going to be a Clydesdale, but the Clydesdale wins. They just win in a different fashion than the gazelle wins.

“Your only option is to work a plan, because working a plan will always get you further than not working a plan.”

daveramsey.com/index.cfm?event=askdave/&intContentItemId=119391

The part I bolded was the part that Mr. Becker (the Crisis author) found damning. I think that in context, it’s really not. DR says that larger families have heavier food, medical, and transportation needs than smaller families and may need more time to pay off debt–not exactly controversial.

 

[heidi_storage]

I am aware you are a fan.

I think it’s a bit weird that I’ve seen Xantippe enthusiastically referencing Dave Ramsey considerably more than I’ve seen her reference the Bible, or other Catholic sources.

 

[pensmama87]

I think it’s a bit weird that I’ve seen Xantippe enthusiastically referencing Dave Ramsey considerably more than I’ve seen her reference the Bible, or other Catholic sources.

Oh, come on.

That’s seriously uncalled for.

 

[heidi_storage]

Oh, come on.

That’s seriously uncalled for.

Sorry, it wasn’t meant to be insulting; it’s just a general observation I’ve made following the Family Life threads. It just seems a bit weird from a Catholic on a Catholic forum.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I think it’s a bit weird that I’ve seen Xantippe enthusiastically referencing Dave Ramsey considerably more than I’ve seen her reference the Bible, or other Catholic sources.

I would give a little more charity to her than that. I think Xantippe is a wonderful woman who is terrific and knowledgeable about many subjects. And money management is indeed one of her strengths. I disagree with her on some issues but I respect her. I think her priorities of money and how it affects her life decisions are between her and her husband and God. I also think she has dispensed very good advice to many on these forums in regards to financial matters. One might even say she has helped many. And that is a good thing. Her views on childbirth and NFP differ from my own and don’t really theologically jive with my view of logic. But she is remarkably consistent. Sure I would like it if her posts had more theology and less “spock” like advice but then she wouldn’t be her. And though I disagree with her now and then, I consider her a good christian woman who has her heart in the right place. She defends DR like I would defend my favorite sports team. And no one could accuse me of loving football more than God…

I think she is right many times and has the all too common human quality that you and I also have of not ever thinking she is wrong…

Cut her a break even if her approach is not to your liking. I have no honest view of her soul nor does anyone else on here have a view of mine. So, lets agree that she is probably the foremost expert on financial advice on these boards even if her theology may not always come through. Perhaps her logic gets in the way. As a scientist I can definitely appreciate that!

 

[Xantippe]

I think it’s a bit weird that I’ve seen Xantippe enthusiastically referencing Dave Ramsey considerably more than I’ve seen her reference the Bible, or other Catholic sources.

In this thread, which happens to be on personal finance.

If you want Bible quotes, let’s do Bible quotes.

Proverbs 22:7 “The borrower is slave to the lender.”

Proverbs 13:22 "A good man leaves an inheritance to his children’s children, but the sinner’s wealth is laid up for the righteous. "

1 Timothy 5:8 “If any one does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.”

2 Thessalonians 3:6-12: “6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us. 7 For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us; we were not idle when we were with you, 8 we did not eat any one’s bread without paying, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not burden any of you. 9 It was not because we have not that right, but to give you in our conduct an example to imitate. 10 For even when we were with you, we gave you this command: If any one will not work, let him not eat. 11 For we hear that some of you are living in idleness, mere busybodies, not doing any work. 12 Now such persons we command and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work in quietness and to earn their own living.”

I don’t have the time to do a really thorough search, but there’s lots more where those came from. St. Paul and the authors of Proverbs would have had very little patience for Mr. Becker.

 

[heidi_storage]

In this thread, which happens to be on personal finance.

If you want Bible quotes, let’s do Bible quotes.

Proverbs 22:7 “The borrower is slave to the lender.”

Proverbs 13:22 "A good man leaves an inheritance to his children’s children, but the sinner’s wealth is laid up for the righteous. "

1 Timothy 5:8 “If any one does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.”

2 Thessalonians 3:6-12: “6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us. 7 For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us; we were not idle when we were with you, 8 we did not eat any one’s bread without paying, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not burden any of you. 9 It was not because we have not that right, but to give you in our conduct an example to imitate. 10 For even when we were with you, we gave you this command: If any one will not work, let him not eat. 11 For we hear that some of you are living in idleness, mere busybodies, not doing any work. 12 Now such persons we command and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work in quietness and to earn their own living.”

I don’t have the time to do a really thorough search, but there’s lots more where those came from. St. Paul and the authors of Proverbs would have had very little patience for Mr. Becker.

Fine quotes! It’s good to see you listing Bible verses.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Sorry, it wasn’t meant to be insulting; it’s just a general observation I’ve made following the Family Life threads. It just seems a bit weird from a Catholic on a Catholic forum.

Perhaps your observation is founded perhaps not. But I will tell you this. Rarely is the level of Bible reference or CCC reference up to the level it should be in peoples lives and indeed on this forum. Catholic are criticized for this often and perhaps not without cause. But to single her out in particular is indeed unfair. Were I you, I would apologize and move on. If you wish to engage her on a theological matter I am sure you will be satisfied with her defense of her position. though it may or may not be wrong…

 

[Xantippe]

I would give a little more charity to her than that. I think Xantippe is a wonderful woman who is terrific and knowledgeable about many subjects. And money management is indeed one of her strengths. I disagree with her on some issues but I respect her. I think her priorities of money and how it affects her life decisions are between her and her husband and God. I also think she has dispensed very good advice to many on these forums in regards to financial matters. One might even say she has helped many. And that is a good thing. Her views on childbirth and NFP differ from my own and don’t really theologically jive with my view of logic. But she is remarkably consistent. Sure I would like it if her posts had more theology and less “spock” like advice but then she wouldn’t be her. And though I disagree with her now and then, I consider her a good christian woman who has her heart in the right place. She defends DR like I would defend my favorite sports team. And no one could accuse me of loving football more than God…

I think she is right many times and has the all too common human quality that you and I also have of not ever thinking she is wrong…

Cut her a break even if her approach is not to your liking. I have no honest view of her soul nor does anyone else on here have a view of mine. So, lets agree that she is probably the foremost expert on financial advice on these boards even if her theology may not always come through. Perhaps her logic gets in the way. As a scientist I can definitely appreciate that!

That’s very sweet, HD!

I’m sure lots of people on CAF have a better sense of the finer points of finance than I do and know more math than I do, but I think I do have a good handle on the behavioral and relational side of personal finance. As DR would say, personal finance is personal–it’s about people, it’s not about math.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

In this thread, which happens to be on personal finance.

If you want Bible quotes, let’s do Bible quotes.

Proverbs 22:7 “The borrower is slave to the lender.”

Proverbs 13:22 "A good man leaves an inheritance to his children’s children, but the sinner’s wealth is laid up for the righteous. "

1 Timothy 5:8 “If any one does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.”

2 Thessalonians 3:6-12: “6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us. 7 For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us; we were not idle when we were with you, 8 we did not eat any one’s bread without paying, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not burden any of you. 9 It was not because we have not that right, but to give you in our conduct an example to imitate. 10 For even when we were with you, we gave you this command: If any one will not work, let him not eat. 11 For we hear that some of you are living in idleness, mere busybodies, not doing any work. 12 Now such persons we command and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work in quietness and to earn their own living.”

I don’t have the time to do a really thorough search, but there’s lots more where those came from. St. Paul and the authors of Proverbs would have had very little patience for Mr. Becker.

Ha! I knew you would come through. Good show old sport!

Now, Xantippe, here is a test for your sense of humor…

Meaning the following is a JOKE!

I don’t have the time to do a really thorough search, but there’s lots more where those came from.

Unless it was a DR column, then you would have the time right…

 

[Xantippe]

Ha! I knew you would come through. Good show old sport!

Now, Xantippe, here is a test for your sense of humor…

Meaning the following is a JOKE!

Unless it was a DR column, then you would have the time right…

Well, combing through the whole Bible is a pretty big job…

Just Proverbs would be a good start, though.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Well, combing through the whole Bible is a pretty big job…

Just Proverbs would be a good start, though.

As soon as you get the time I would appreciate a theological dissertation that DR is indeed a reincarnation of the author of proverbs…

Proverbs is the DR and Dr. Laura of the OT books, if they had only had radio back then…

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

To the OP,

How about an update or the results of the pregnancy test…

 

[Xantippe]

Pretty close.

I haven’t read the whole thing recently, but I also get the feeling that Proverbs is major OT cheerleading for lifelong monogamous marriage. Hey, young men, don’t be helping yourself to your neighbor’s hot wife when your neighbor is out of town on business! Hey, older men, don’t be buying 15-year-old slave girls and putting your faithful old wives out on the curb! (It doesn’t actually say the part about 15-year-old slave girls, but that’s the drift I get from Proverbs 31–it’s selling the reader or listener on the merits of the older, experienced, loyal married woman.)

As soon as you get the time I would appreciate a theological dissertation that DR is indeed a reincarnation of the author of proverbs…

Proverbs is the DR and Dr. Laura of the OT books, if they had only had radio back then…