To have a child or not to have a child

[Xantippe]

HD,

Come to think of it, we could do a CAF reading group on Proverbs. We could discuss one chapter a day in the Family Life forum.

I’d be up for that if you set it up.

Proverbs is quite appropriate for the Family Life forum, so no qualms about that.

 

[silver_moon]

I would give a little more charity to her than that. I think Xantippe is a wonderful woman who is terrific and knowledgeable about many subjects. And money management is indeed one of her strengths. I disagree with her on some issues but I respect her. I think her priorities of money and how it affects her life decisions are between her and her husband and God. I also think she has dispensed very good advice to many on these forums in regards to financial matters. One might even say she has helped many. And that is a good thing. Her views on childbirth and NFP differ from my own and don’t really theologically jive with my view of logic. But she is remarkably consistent. Sure I would like it if her posts had more theology and less “spock” like advice but then she wouldn’t be her. And though I disagree with her now and then, I consider her a good christian woman who has her heart in the right place. She defends DR like I would defend my favorite sports team. And no one could accuse me of loving football more than God…

I think she is right many times and has the all too common human quality that you and I also have of not ever thinking she is wrong…

Cut her a break even if her approach is not to your liking. I have no honest view of her soul nor does anyone else on here have a view of mine. So, lets agree that she is probably the foremost expert on financial advice on these boards even if her theology may not always come through. Perhaps her logic gets in the way. As a scientist I can definitely appreciate that!

I think Xantippe posts with experience of raising her children, including one with special needs. She’s always said, as I read her, that it was fortunate they could afford the therapies that are/were necessary for her child’s development, and that her daughter has made a lot of progress. Realistically, most parents of children with disabilities/special needs do end up with many more expenses than they would with typically developing children.

I don’t think money by itself or a desire for luxury motivates her b/c Xantippe has said several times that it’s very rewarding to see her daughter’s progress.

back to topic: I’d appreciate an update from the OP also if he feels like it.

 

[gardenswithkids]

In this thread, which happens to be on personal finance.

If you want Bible quotes, let’s do Bible quotes.

Proverbs 22:7 “The borrower is slave to the lender.”

Proverbs 13:22 "A good man leaves an inheritance to his children’s children, but the sinner’s wealth is laid up for the righteous. …

I thought this thread topic was a about more than just finances but rather about having a child or postponing a child while saving for a home.

I appreciate that you climbed out of a financial mess, but your experience doesn’t sound like the op’s. He sounds like he’s got a good handle on their financial picture and they aren’t digging themselves into or out of debt.

The op claims to have no debt at this time, and the only potential debt is a mortgage he hopes to have in the not -so - distant future.

The Bible quote you shared here from Proverbs 13:22 implies that one has children to leave an inheritance to, but the op has no children at this time.

 

[1990Domer]

No, the $180,000 house will not cut it. You should probably wait until you can purchase a $400,000 house. That would be much better for raising a large Catholic family. But do not take on unnecessary debt to do it. You should wait until you can pay cash for the entire thing. And don’t skimp on the furniture - if you purchase quality, it will pay for itself in time. That too, you will want to purchase with cash. Don’t fall back into debt!

Then you have to consider the cars. They are paid off now, but do you have the savings for their replacements? You have to figure that you will want a couple of decent vehicles, but remain in conformity with our moral responsibility to the environment. But get something you will enjoy - after all, next to your home, your car will be your biggest asset. Figure $43,000 each for a pair of BMW i3 electric cars. Moral, responsible, and stylish. You can’t go wrong there.

Now, let’s say you are planning on 8 children. Of course, you will want to send them to the finest schools. Don’t skimp on their education! Figure roughly $50,000 per year each at a decent university, that’s $200,000 per child or $1,600,000 to put all eight through their undergraduate years. You might want to put aside a little extra for graduate schools. Everyone else’s kid will also have a BS/BA so they will need that little edge to remain competitive.

You might want to wait just a little while more until you have put aside a little nest egg to cover these incidental expenses.

Or, if you view children as gifts from God that are more priceless than any Earthly treasure, you could simply trust in God’s grace and welcome new life into your family.

Whatever works for you.

No offense, but I would not consider this sound advice. Few people, except in select parts of the country NEED a $400,000 house. Money is of this world. The new couple should put their faith in God, and I am sure he will meet their needs. Granted, they may not be their ideal needs, but he will meet their needs.

 

[1990Domer]

I would give a little more charity to her than that. I think Xantippe is a wonderful woman who is terrific and knowledgeable about many subjects. And money management is indeed one of her strengths. I disagree with her on some issues but I respect her. I think her priorities of money and how it affects her life decisions are between her and her husband and God. I also think she has dispensed very good advice to many on these forums in regards to financial matters. One might even say she has helped many. And that is a good thing. Her views on childbirth and NFP differ from my own and don’t really theologically jive with my view of logic. But she is remarkably consistent. Sure I would like it if her posts had more theology and less “spock” like advice but then she wouldn’t be her. And though I disagree with her now and then, I consider her a good christian woman who has her heart in the right place. She defends DR like I would defend my favorite sports team. And no one could accuse me of loving football more than God…

I think she is right many times and has the all too common human quality that you and I also have of not ever thinking she is wrong…

Cut her a break even if her approach is not to your liking. I have no honest view of her soul nor does anyone else on here have a view of mine. So, lets agree that she is probably the foremost expert on financial advice on these boards even if her theology may not always come through. Perhaps her logic gets in the way. As a scientist I can definitely appreciate that!

Xantippe and I both have special need children who do not get nearly the educational help they need. I am sure DR taught her how to care for the “least of God’s children.” I don’t quote any one financial planner, although I tend towards Suzie Orman. However, self-sacrifice is the name of the game, and I see far too little of it in my community…a modest one with, yes, smaller but doable $180,000 houses.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Xantippe and I both have special need children who do not get nearly the educational help they need. I am sure DR taught her how to care for the “least of God’s children.” I don’t quote any one financial planner, although I tend towards Suzie Orman. However, self-sacrifice is the name of the game, and I see far too little of it in my community…a modest one with, yes, smaller but doable $180,000 houses.

My second daughter had a life threatening disability. In 2 years, over 400000 dollars of medical and therapy bills had piled up. Insurance paid its part but we were left with a substantial bill. We had just purchased a house as well. In our state there is a Medicaid program that does not take income into account but rather just “disability” they covered everything the insurance did not completely. Even retroactively covered her birth at the hospital. We were fortunate to have such a program! It was a state version of the Katie Beckett program. I hear tell that they actually charge a premium now but it hovers around an average of 54 dollars a month. With a cap at 78 dollars s month…

 

[Convert_in_99]

No offense, but I would not consider this sound advice. Few people, except in select parts of the country NEED a $400,000 house. Money is of this world. The new couple should put their faith in God, and I am sure he will meet their needs. Granted, they may not be their ideal needs, but he will meet their needs.

I think the poster was being sarcastic.

 

[Xantippe]

I think Xantippe posts with experience of raising her children, including one with special needs. She’s always said, as I read her, that it was fortunate they could afford the therapies that are/were necessary for her child’s development, and that her daughter has made a lot of progress. Realistically, most parents of children with disabilities/special needs do end up with many more expenses than they would with typically developing children.

Right.

We’ve also been very fortunate to be able to afford a small private school where everybody knows our special needs daughter and is committed to her success.

A lot of special needs parents are making do with very inadequate situations.

 

[Xantippe]

I thought this thread topic was a about more than just finances but rather about having a child or postponing a child while saving for a home.

I appreciate that you climbed out of a financial mess, but your experience doesn’t sound like the op’s. He sounds like he’s got a good handle on their financial picture and they aren’t digging themselves into or out of debt.

The op claims to have no debt at this time, and the only potential debt is a mortgage he hopes to have in the not -so - distant future.

The Bible quote you shared here from Proverbs 13:22 implies that one has children to leave an inheritance to, but the op has no children at this time.

The OP’s financial situation is excellent with both him and his wife working. However, the OP said that once his wife stops working, they will only have $300 of surplus funds a month. Now, it’s possible that there is more fat to be found in their budget, but if they can only afford $300 a month in savings, a $36,000 downpayment will take them 10 years to acquire, by which time housing prices will have presumably gone up…There’s also the issue that PolarGuy noted that $300 may evaporate with the appearance of a new baby. In fact, it is quite possible (and I know this from experience) that they will start operating heavily in the red once they have children. So there is reason for concern. And, yes, it is possible to buy a house with less than a 20% downpayment, but the less equity they have in the house, the more dangerous their situation is. There were a lot of really sad stories out of the 2008 housing meltdown. The average US home lost something like 30% of value during the last housing crisis, but there were areas of the US where home values fell upwards of 50%. And even if the OP and his wife are comfortable with low equity, they still need an emergency fund of some kind. I don’t know how expensive their area is, but in our fairly low-cost area, we find that an emergency fund of $10k is the absolute minimum we feel comfortable with as homeowners–and it’s quite a job keeping that topped up.

That said, if she is over 30, they should probably not wait. But if she’s well under 30, there is substantial benefit in her continued working–they can save literally 10X faster with her income and just one year of saving will produce an excellent downpayment. Even a partial year of higher savings could make a big difference in the speed they’ll be able to buy a house.

 

[TheFraggle]

“We aren’t in any particular financial hardship.”

This right here says it. Marriage is for children. Have one.

 

[Xantippe]

As soon as she quits her job, financial hardship is pretty much guaranteed. Their current comfy situation is by virtue of her income.

I’m not saying that they shouldn’t have a baby right away, but they should go into it with their eyes open.

OP, $300 surplus per month is not enough–get that number up as soon as you can, either by increased income or decreased lifestyle.

“We aren’t in any particular financial hardship.”

This right here says it. Marriage is for children. Have one.

 

[Stilldreamn]

He doubly laughed at us when we thought “how can we possibly afford still another child”; he sent us twins.

This made me laugh. Our youngest are twins and they were born just before my 42nd birthday. My husband said, “well there goes the retirement plans”

 

[Graceful_Lamb]

I know you are asking for people’s opinions, but I strongly believe that this is a subject between a husband and his wife.

 

[MomaMary8]

As soon as she quits her job, financial hardship is pretty much guaranteed. Their current comfy situation is by virtue of her income.

I’m not saying that they shouldn’t have a baby right away, but they should go into it with their eyes open.

OP, $300 surplus per month is not enough–get that number up as soon as you can, either by increased income or decreased lifestyle.

Many families have a stay at home parent and it does not guarantee hardship. It may mean sacrifice, but that is very different than hardship. The OP sounds rather financially savvy.

 

[Walking_Home]

As soon as she quits her job, financial hardship is pretty much guaranteed. Their current comfy situation is by virtue of her income.

I’m not saying that they shouldn’t have a baby right away, but they should go into it with their eyes open.

OP, $300 surplus per month is not enough–get that number up as soon as you can, either by increased income or decreased lifestyle.

---

Ditto.

 

[pensmama87]

Many families have a stay at home parent and it does not guarantee hardship. It may mean sacrifice, but that is very different than hardship. The OP sounds rather financially savvy.

Only having a cushion of a few hundred dollars is very, very hard on the family. My family has been living that for four years and it is exhausting. We can afford very little “fun” and even that cushion is dependent on some really intense thrift on my part. If I wasn’t an “extreme couponer” we’d have zero cushion. Zero. As it is I have several things on the “waiting list” that many people would consider immediate necessities - and I’m talking about things like car and house repairs, NOT vacations.

While I’d be thrilled to hear the OP had a blessing on the way, I would very seriously advise him and his wife to figure out some ways to increase that $300, whether that’s by increasing his income or adjusting their standard of living or both.

 

[MomaMary8]

Only having a cushion of a few hundred dollars is very, very hard on the family. My family has been living that for four years and it is exhausting. We can afford very little “fun” and even that cushion is dependent on some really intense thrift on my part. If I wasn’t an “extreme couponer” we’d have zero cushion. Zero. As it is I have several things on the “waiting list” that many people would consider immediate necessities - and I’m talking about things like car and house repairs, NOT vacations.

While I’d be thrilled to hear the OP had a blessing on the way, I would very seriously advise him and his wife to figure out some ways to increase that $300, whether that’s by increasing his income or adjusting their standard of living or both.

I guess we have differing views on what constitutes a hardship. What you describe, I see as tight, not a hardship. My husband’s family lost their family home and 85% of their possessions. They kept their clothes and some dishes. That is a hardship. We had a time where money was so tight, we could not afford paper for the kids reports. We found old, discarded paper and ironed it so it would go through the printer. That was difficult. Having a small cushion in the early years of a family helps one to realize what is truly needed and what is not. That, at least, has been my experience. I never expected my family to start at the same financial level at which I left my parents’ home. I knew we would have to work to get there, and we have. I have been given the spiritual advice that we should all feel the “pinch of poverty.” Some have to work at avoiding luxuries. Some of us are blessed to not be able to afford them in the first place! I guess it’s all a matter of perspective. God bless

 

[Xantippe]

I guess we have differing views on what constitutes a hardship. What you describe, I see as tight, not a hardship. My husband’s family lost their family home and 85% of their possessions. They kept their clothes and some dishes. That is a hardship. We had a time where money was so tight, we could not afford paper for the kids reports. We found old, discarded paper and ironed it so it would go through the printer. That was difficult. Having a small cushion in the early years of a family helps one to realize what is truly needed and what is not. That, at least, has been my experience. I never expected my family to start at the same financial level at which I left my parents’ home. I knew we would have to work to get there, and we have. I have been given the spiritual advice that we should all feel the “pinch of poverty.” Some have to work at avoiding luxuries. Some of us are blessed to not be able to afford them in the first place! I guess it’s all a matter of perspective. God bless

I hope the OP is sticking around and taking notes…

It is a hardship to lose 1/2 or 1/3 of household income, which is what is going to happen when the OP’s wife quits her job. It’s not impossible to deal with (and I think you’re correct that the OP is financially savvy), but it is a substantial obstacle. If they currently have $300 extra a month counting just his salary, even fairly basic baby expenses will evaporate that. For example, let’s say that they have $50 a month diaper expenses plus an extra $150-$200 a month in food expenses once the baby starts eating a lot of table food. Add in a wobble in the cost of utilities or gas, and their $300 is gone and they have no money to save toward the purchase of a home or to save for emergencies. I was just looking at a foodstamp eligibility site, and they add $154 a month in food stamp allowance when going from a 2 person to a 3 person household, so I think we have to assume that the OP and his wife will need at least that.

fns.usda.gov/snap/eligibility

Then add another child (with accompanying diaper and food costs), and this family is headed into the red. And that’s just two kids and assuming no major disabilities or prolonged periods of unemployment… I hope to goodness that their current budget is pretty fat.

We have so many CAF posters who grapple with exactly this math, which is very, very unforgiving.

 

[Xantippe]

I guess we have differing views on what constitutes a hardship. What you describe, I see as tight, not a hardship.

If pensmama87’s lifestyle doesn’t count as a hardship in the US, I don’t know what does.

Because it’s somewhat related, here’s Monty Python and the Four Yorkshiremen.

youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo

 

[pensmama87]

I guess we have differing views on what constitutes a hardship. What you describe, I see as tight, not a hardship. My husband’s family lost their family home and 85% of their possessions. They kept their clothes and some dishes. That is a hardship. We had a time where money was so tight, we could not afford paper for the kids reports. We found old, discarded paper and ironed it so it would go through the printer. That was difficult. Having a small cushion in the early years of a family helps one to realize what is truly needed and what is not. That, at least, has been my experience. I never expected my family to start at the same financial level at which I left my parents’ home. I knew we would have to work to get there, and we have. I have been given the spiritual advice that we should all feel the “pinch of poverty.” Some have to work at avoiding luxuries. Some of us are blessed to not be able to afford them in the first place! I guess it’s all a matter of perspective. God bless

I’m aware that it could be a lot worse. That doesn’t mean what I do now isn’t hard (and acknowledging that it is very hard doesn’t also mean that I can’t count my blessings.)

If the OP can do a little now to avoid extreme measures (and I mean extreme - you can see examples on other threads about the things I do to save money) then I think that’s going to be better for his family’s financial and emotional health. Of course crises are unavoidable, but it’s not wise to invite one in. (And like I said, they’ve got at least nine months anyway to learn a bit.)