To live by faith

[benedictus2]

Thanks Benedictus2,

Yes, I have read the article link you provided.

Are you suggesting, then, that God not only preserved Mary from ORIGINAL SIN, but also infallibly preserved Mary from all sin right throughout her earthly life?

The thought of this is staggering - if Mary never committed any sin ie she was never rude, arrogant, boastful, prideful, selfish, impatient, irritable or said a wrong word etc, then she never committed one sin which means that she was not a sinner. Is this what you are suggesting?

Furthermore, if Mary was not a sinner, then it follows that she did not need to be redeemed by the blood of Christ and, therefore, Christ did not shed His blood for her. Can you please explain this?

God bless you, In Christ Craig

She was redeemed by Christ pre-emptively. She was saved by Christ, but I don’t think we can explain it all that well because we are in linear time. The way they explain it, it is He paid her her debt before it was incurred.

And yes, without original sin, she never committed a sin. If I understand original sin correctly, it is our fallen state that makes it so easy for us to sin. Because Christ redeemed her prior to her conception then she did not experience the consequences that arose out of original sin.

I suppose an analogy would be Christ jumping in and catching her before she fell rather than going down and picking her up from the bottom of the pit.

Kimberly Hahn (a presbyterian who converted to Catholicism) found this one of the hardest to accept. Then one day she realized that there have been instances when she knew God had stepped in to stop her from commiting a sin. After this, she realized that yes, if God can do that for her, it is not impossible for God to do that for Mary.

And yes, the thought of that is staggering.

As an aside.

Her Immaculate Conception was proclaimed as dogma in 1854.

In 1858 she appeared to an uneducated peasant girl named Bernadette Soubirous in Lourdes. Bernadette was really convinced that it was Mary who was appearing to her.

The priest told Bernadette to ask the Lady for her name.

When Bernadette asked her, she replied “I am the Immaculate Conception”.

Bernadette went back to the priest sad. She said it wasn’t Mary after all because she said her name was the Immaculate Conception. It was then that the priest realized that the apparitions were real.

Lourdes has become a Marian pilgrimage site and many have been healed since then.

What is great about Lourdes is that they established a medical bureau to investigate the healings and they are extensively documented. The panel of doctors and scientists come from all faiths and some of them are agnostics.

 

[Craig_Kennedy]

She was redeemed by Christ pre-emptively. She was saved by Christ, but I don’t think we can explain it all that well because we are in linear time. The way they explain it, it is He paid her her debt before it was incurred.

And yes, without original sin, she never committed a sin. If I understand original sin correctly, it is our fallen state that makes it so easy for us to sin. Because Christ redeemed her prior to her conception then she did not experience the consequences that arose out of original sin.

I suppose an analogy would be Christ jumping in and catching her before she fell rather than going down and picking her up from the bottom of the pit.

Kimberly Hahn (a presbyterian who converted to Catholicism) found this one of the hardest to accept. Then one day she realized that there have been instances when she knew God had stepped in to stop her from commiting a sin. After this, she realized that yes, if God can do that for her, it is not impossible for God to do that for Mary.

And yes, the thought of that is staggering.

As an aside.

Her Immaculate Conception was proclaimed as dogma in 1854.

In 1858 she appeared to an uneducated peasant girl named Bernadette Soubirous in Lourdes. Bernadette was really convinced that it was Mary who was appearing to her.

The priest told Bernadette to ask the Lady for her name.

When Bernadette asked her, she replied “I am the Immaculate Conception”.

Bernadette went back to the priest sad. She said it wasn’t Mary after all because she said her name was the Immaculate Conception. It was then that the priest realized that the apparitions were real.

Lourdes has become a Marian pilgrimage site and many have been healed since then.

What is great about Lourdes is that they established a medical bureau to investigate the healings and they are extensively documented. The panel of doctors and scientists come from all faiths and some of them are agnostics.

Thanks Benedictus2,

I have read your post in answer to my questions very carefully.

I appreciate your answers and the thinking you put into them.

You say in your post:

“She was redeemed by Christ pre-emptively. She was saved by Christ, but I don’t think we can explain it all that well because we are in linear time. The way they explain it, it is He paid her her debt before it was incurred.”

But how did Christ die for Mary, if she committed no sin? How could Mary be redeemed pre-emptively, if in God’s infallible foreknowledge Mary was without ORIGINAL SIN and committed no sin ie she was sinless? Did Christ die on the Cross for Mary in a way that he did not for all other humans?

God bless you, In Christ Craig

 

[benedictus2]

Thanks Benedictus2,

I have read your post in answer to my questions very carefully.

I appreciate your answers and the thinking you put into them.

You say in your post:

“She was redeemed by Christ pre-emptively. She was saved by Christ, but I don’t think we can explain it all that well because we are in linear time. The way they explain it, it is He paid her her debt before it was incurred.”

But how did Christ die for Mary, if she committed no sin? How could Mary be redeemed pre-emptively, if in God’s infallible foreknowledge Mary was without ORIGINAL SIN and committed no sin ie she was sinless? Did Christ die on the Cross for Mary in a way that he did not for all other humans?

God bless you, In Christ Craig

Actually, the reason she commited no sin was because He died for her. It is the fact of Christ dying (say after 45 years) that she was conceived without sin (45 years before. His dying was actually the one that ensured her being born without sin even though His dying happened way after her conception. It was like in her case, the remission was retroactive to prior to her conception.

I suppose the difference between us and her is that Christ’s death and resurrection saved us from sin after the fact, but in her case, so that she would not fall at all.

That is why I said it is a bit difficult to think around it because time is linear and it is hard to think how salvation which is the result of Christ’s death and resurrection could be effected when the event (conception) happened way before this.

I suppose you could look at it this way, Christ’s death and resurrection brought about the outpouring of saving grace. In Mary’s case, God made the saving grace of His death and resurrection, available to her even before she was conceived even though the saving event has not yet taken place.

I have to sort this out in my head more because it is not very organized as yet. And even then I doubt if it would make much more sense but I’ll post another reply (which hopefully will be more coherent).

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Thanks Benedictus2,

I have read your post in answer to my questions very carefully.

I appreciate your answers and the thinking you put into them.

You say in your post:

“She was redeemed by Christ pre-emptively. She was saved by Christ, but I don’t think we can explain it all that well because we are in linear time. The way they explain it, it is He paid her her debt before it was incurred.”

But how did Christ die for Mary, if she committed no sin? How could Mary be redeemed pre-emptively, if in God’s infallible foreknowledge Mary was without ORIGINAL SIN and committed no sin ie she was sinless? Did Christ die on the Cross for Mary in a way that he did not for all other humans?

God bless you, In Christ Craig

This is probably best explained through an analogy that has been in use in the Church for over a thousand years. The analogy is to a man falling into a pit.

A man falls into a pit with slime and mud at the bottom. Then another man comes and saves him by dragging him out of the pit.

Then a woman comes along and is about to fall into the pit, when the man who rescued the first person catches her, saving her by preventing her from ever falling into the pit.

You and I have sinned- we are the man who first fell into the pit. We have been stained by the slime of sin. Jesus saves us by dragging us out of the pit.

By the same blood, Jesus saves Mary, only He saves her by snatching her up at the brink of the pit before she fell, so that she never would be stained with sin. He saved her from experiencing sin. If not for His blood, she never could have entered Heaven, much less been pure from conception. She was as completely saved as you and I, only she was saved early, so that from the first moment of her conception, she was immaculate. You and I will one day experience the same grace she received. We will be immaculate and fully righteous in every thought, word and deed, foreigners to sin. Mary simply received that grace at an earlier stage in existence than any of the rest of us except Jesus, Adam and Eve: Conception.

This was a miracle of Jesus by which He made use of His power to overcome the laws of time that He wrote.

This is not the only time Jesus has broken the laws of time by offering His blood to people early, either. He actually offered His body and blood to His disciples, and they ate and drank it, before He even had suffered on the cross! This was at the Last Supper. At the Last Supper, Jesus broke the laws of time by offering them the wine of His Passion early, making them true participants in an event that had not even physically taken place yet.

 

[Cinette]

She was redeemed by Christ pre-emptively. She was saved by Christ, but I don’t think we can explain it all that well because we are in linear time. The way they explain it, it is He paid her her debt before it was incurred.

…

What is great about Lourdes is that they established a medical bureau to investigate the healings and they are extensively documented. The panel of doctors and scientists come from all faiths and some of them are agnostics.

Our Blessed Mother (like Jesus who chose simple fishermen) always appeared to simple folk. Juan Diego was an ignorant man and reported to the Bishop that the “Lady” said she was the “Immaculate Conception” - the same thing with Bernadette and I am not sure if it was the same with the children at Fatima. The Church is always very careful before pronouncing a miracle and we have seen some outstanding fruit from Mary’s apparitions - this is a testimony to her standing with God.

 

[benedictus2]

A man falls into a pit with slime and mud at the bottom. Then another man comes and saves him by dragging him out of the pit.

Then a woman comes along and is about to fall into the pit, when the man who rescued the first person catches her, saving her by preventing her from ever falling into the pit.

Hey, that is exactly the same analogy I used in my post # 197. What do you know, I think like someone 1000 years old. (and I feel like it too sometimes)

 

[twb1621]

Thanks Benedictus2,

I have read your post in answer to my questions very carefully.

I appreciate your answers and the thinking you put into them.

You say in your post:

“She was redeemed by Christ pre-emptively. She was saved by Christ, but I don’t think we can explain it all that well because we are in linear time. The way they explain it, it is He paid her her debt before it was incurred.”

But how did Christ die for Mary, if she committed no sin? How could Mary be redeemed pre-emptively, if in God’s infallible foreknowledge Mary was without ORIGINAL SIN and committed no sin ie she was sinless? Did Christ die on the Cross for Mary in a way that he did not for all other humans?

God bless you, In Christ Craig

Craig, Perhaps it would help to understand also and to keep in mind not only that the “woman” spoken of in the OT was Mary in the prophecies but also that she was predestined to suffer the pain of the sword as prophesied by Simeon at the temple. This was the reason Jesus referred to her as “woman” at times. In fact, if you compare, Mary’s life was to parallel the life of Jesus right down to the passion and suffering yet she remained as silent in her pain as Jesus in His. It is a fact recognized by all Christians that the Blood of Christ is the Blood of our salvation. Mary was born full of grace and created by God with purity to be the ark of the new covenant just as God directed the construction of the ark of the old covenant. Mary was even more precious because it would be the Son of God who she would carry.
But most importantly, it should not be difficult to understand that if the blood of Jesus is the source of our salvation, this very blood pulsating through the veins of Jesus flowed through the veins of Mary and from her through Him. Her devotion and her immaculate nature could not have been flawed to start with and certainly could not have been soiled after sharing the living blood of Christ. If it were, there would be no salvation at all from the spilling of this very same blood and their shared torment and suffering.

Some excerpts to ponder;
64. “Through the prophets, God forms his people in the hope of salvation, in the expectation of a new and everlasting Covenant intended for all, to be written on their hearts. [Cf. Is 2:2-4 ; Jer 31:31-34 ; Heb 10:16 .] The prophets proclaim a radical redemption of the People of God, purification from all their infidelities, a salvation, which will include all the nations. [Cf. Ezek 3:6; Is 49:5-6; Is 53:11 .] Above all, the poor and humble of the Lord will bear this hope. Such holy women as Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel, Miriam, Deborah, Hannah, Judith and Esther kept alive the hope of Israel’s salvation. The purest figure among them is Mary. [Cf. Ezek 2:3 ; Lk 1:38 .]”
148. “The Virgin Mary most perfectly embodies the obedience of faith. By faith Mary welcomes the tidings and promise brought by the angel Gabriel, believing that ‘with God nothing will be impossible’ and so giving her assent: ‘Behold I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be (done) to me according to your word.’ [Lk 1:37-38; cf. Gen 18:14.] Elizabeth greeted her: ‘Blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfilment of what was spoken to her from the Lord.’ [Lk 1:45 .] It is for this faith that all generations have called Mary blessed. [Cf. Lk 1:48.]”
273. “Only faith can embrace the mysterious ways of God’s almighty power. This faith glories in its weaknesses in order to draw to itself Christ’s power. [Cf. 2 Cor 12:9 ; Phil 4:13.] The Virgin Mary is the supreme model of this faith, for she believed that ‘nothing will be impossible with God’, and was able to magnify the Lord: ‘For he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name.’ [Lk 1:37, 49.]”
487. “What the Catholic faith believes about Mary is based on what it believes about Christ, and what it teaches about Mary illumines in turn its faith in Christ.”
490. “To become the mother of the Saviour, Mary ‘was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role.’ [LG 56.] The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as ‘full of grace’. [Lk 1:28 .] In fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God’s grace.”
491. “Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, ‘full of grace’ through God, [Lk 1:28 .] was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854: The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin. [Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus (1854): DS 2803.]”
catscans.com/catholicsite/mary.htm

 

[benedictus2]

But most importantly, it should not be difficult to understand that if the blood of Jesus is the source of our salvation, this very blood pulsating through the veins of Jesus flowed through the veins of Mary and from her through Him.

I love this insight.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Me too.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Hey, that is exactly the same analogy I used in my post # 197. What do you know, I think like someone 1000 years old. (and I feel like it too sometimes)

Lol!

 

[twb1621]

I love this insight.

and to Lief Erikson

Thank you for that acknowledgment.
Its something to focus on at times.

 

[Craig_Kennedy]

Actually, the reason she commited no sin was because He died for her. It is the fact of Christ dying (say after 45 years) that she was conceived without sin (45 years before. His dying was actually the one that ensured her being born without sin even though His dying happened way after her conception. It was like in her case, the remission was retroactive to prior to her conception.

I suppose the difference between us and her is that Christ’s death and resurrection saved us from sin after the fact, but in her case, so that she would not fall at all.

That is why I said it is a bit difficult to think around it because time is linear and it is hard to think how salvation which is the result of Christ’s death and resurrection could be effected when the event (conception) happened way before this.

I suppose you could look at it this way, Christ’s death and resurrection brought about the outpouring of saving grace. In Mary’s case, God made the saving grace of His death and resurrection, available to her even before she was conceived even though the saving event has not yet taken place.

I have to sort this out in my head more because it is not very organized as yet. And even then I doubt if it would make much more sense but I’ll post another reply (which hopefully will be more coherent).

Most insightful post!

Hey, this makes sense and I am open to exploring these truths more.

In your post you wrote:

“. In Mary’s case, God made the saving grace of His death and resurrection, available to her even before she was conceived even though the saving event has not yet taken place.”

Yes, I can see this! The wonderful GRACE and providential blessings of God. Surely, indeed, God’s ways are past finding out!

God bless you, In Christ Craig

 

[Craig_Kennedy]

This is probably best explained through an analogy that has been in use in the Church for over a thousand years. The analogy is to a man falling into a pit.

A man falls into a pit with slime and mud at the bottom. Then another man comes and saves him by dragging him out of the pit.

Then a woman comes along and is about to fall into the pit, when the man who rescued the first person catches her, saving her by preventing her from ever falling into the pit.

You and I have sinned- we are the man who first fell into the pit. We have been stained by the slime of sin. Jesus saves us by dragging us out of the pit.

By the same blood, Jesus saves Mary, only He saves her by snatching her up at the brink of the pit before she fell, so that she never would be stained with sin. He saved her from experiencing sin. If not for His blood, she never could have entered Heaven, much less been pure from conception. She was as completely saved as you and I, only she was saved early, so that from the first moment of her conception, she was immaculate. You and I will one day experience the same grace she received. We will be immaculate and fully righteous in every thought, word and deed, foreigners to sin. Mary simply received that grace at an earlier stage in existence than any of the rest of us except Jesus, Adam and Eve: Conception.

This was a miracle of Jesus by which He made use of His power to overcome the laws of time that He wrote.

This is not the only time Jesus has broken the laws of time by offering His blood to people early, either. He actually offered His body and blood to His disciples, and they ate and drank it, before He even had suffered on the cross! This was at the Last Supper. At the Last Supper, Jesus broke the laws of time by offering them the wine of His Passion early, making them true participants in an event that had not even physically taken place yet.

Hi Lief,

I appreciated this post very much. It was most moving to read your analogy of a man falling into a pit and the GRACE of Christ dragging us out of the pit.

I love it, dear brother in Christ, when you write with such devotion about Mary. This comes through in your posts and, incidentally, this is one key reason why I so respect you. In this post you assert:

“By the same blood, Jesus saves Mary, only He saves her by snatching her up at the brink of the pit before she fell, so that she never would be stained with sin. He saved her from experiencing sin. If not for His blood, she never could have entered Heaven, much less been pure from conception. She was as completely saved as you and I, only she was saved early, so that from the first moment of her conception, she was immaculate. You and I will one day experience the same grace she received. We will be immaculate and fully righteous in every thought, word and deed, foreigners to sin. Mary simply received that grace at an earlier stage in existence than any of the rest of us except Jesus, Adam and Eve: Conception.”

Great Stuff!

I actually don’t disagree with this. It does not clash with any scriptural teaching and my spiritual instincts are heightened at the contemplation of these sublime truths. You acknowledge that Mary was SAVED BY CHRIST’S PRECIOUS BLOOD and received God’s grace; and, can I add, all of this according to God’s infallible foreknowledge and predestined plan! Praise God!

There is one part of your post, though, that I would need to give more consideration and thought. You wrote:

“This is not the only time Jesus has broken the laws of time by offering His blood to people early, either. He actually offered His body and blood to His disciples, and they ate and drank it, before He even had suffered on the cross! This was at the Last Supper. At the Last Supper, Jesus broke the laws of time by offering them the wine of His Passion early, making them true participants in an event that had not even physically taken place yet.”

On the Last Supper aspect of your postulation, I am not sure.

We may discuss this aspect more, perhaps, on another day; on another occasion.

May God bless you, In Christ Craig

 

[Craig_Kennedy]

Our Blessed Mother (like Jesus who chose simple fishermen) always appeared to simple folk. Juan Diego was an ignorant man and reported to the Bishop that the “Lady” said she was the “Immaculate Conception” - the same thing with Bernadette and I am not sure if it was the same with the children at Fatima. The Church is always very careful before pronouncing a miracle and we have seen some outstanding fruit from Mary’s apparitions - this is a testimony to her standing with God.

I have always been open about the appearances of Mary.

Out of interest, though, what criteria does the Church use in ascertaining whether a miracle is credible or not? Who gets to decide? What is the process involved?

God bless you, In Christ Craig

 

[Craig_Kennedy]

Craig, Perhaps it would help to understand also and to keep in mind not only that the “woman” spoken of in the OT was Mary in the prophecies but also that she was predestined to suffer the pain of the sword as prophesied by Simeon at the temple. This was the reason Jesus referred to her as “woman” at times. In fact, if you compare, Mary’s life was to parallel the life of Jesus right down to the passion and suffering yet she remained as silent in her pain as Jesus in His. It is a fact recognized by all Christians that the Blood of Christ is the Blood of our salvation. Mary was born full of grace and created by God with purity to be the ark of the new covenant just as God directed the construction of the ark of the old covenant. Mary was even more precious because it would be the Son of God who she would carry.
But most importantly, it should not be difficult to understand that if the blood of Jesus is the source of our salvation, this very blood pulsating through the veins of Jesus flowed through the veins of Mary and from her through Him. Her devotion and her immaculate nature could not have been flawed to start with and certainly could not have been soiled after sharing the living blood of Christ. If it were, there would be no salvation at all from the spilling of this very same blood and their shared torment and suffering.

Some excerpts to ponder;
64. “Through the prophets, God forms his people in the hope of salvation, in the expectation of a new and everlasting Covenant intended for all, to be written on their hearts. [Cf. Is 2:2-4 ; Jer 31:31-34 ; Heb 10:16 .] The prophets proclaim a radical redemption of the People of God, purification from all their infidelities, a salvation, which will include all the nations. [Cf. Ezek 3:6; Is 49:5-6; Is 53:11 .] Above all, the poor and humble of the Lord will bear this hope. Such holy women as Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel, Miriam, Deborah, Hannah, Judith and Esther kept alive the hope of Israel’s salvation. The purest figure among them is Mary. [Cf. Ezek 2:3 ; Lk 1:38 .]”
148. “The Virgin Mary most perfectly embodies the obedience of faith. By faith Mary welcomes the tidings and promise brought by the angel Gabriel, believing that ‘with God nothing will be impossible’ and so giving her assent: ‘Behold I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be (done) to me according to your word.’ [Lk 1:37-38; cf. Gen 18:14.] Elizabeth greeted her: ‘Blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfilment of what was spoken to her from the Lord.’ [Lk 1:45 .] It is for this faith that all generations have called Mary blessed. [Cf. Lk 1:48.]”
273. “Only faith can embrace the mysterious ways of God’s almighty power. This faith glories in its weaknesses in order to draw to itself Christ’s power. [Cf. 2 Cor 12:9 ; Phil 4:13.] The Virgin Mary is the supreme model of this faith, for she believed that ‘nothing will be impossible with God’, and was able to magnify the Lord: ‘For he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name.’ [Lk 1:37, 49.]”
487. “What the Catholic faith believes about Mary is based on what it believes about Christ, and what it teaches about Mary illumines in turn its faith in Christ.”
490. “To become the mother of the Saviour, Mary ‘was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role.’ [LG 56.] The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as ‘full of grace’. [Lk 1:28 .] In fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God’s grace.”
491. “Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, ‘full of grace’ through God, [Lk 1:28 .] was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854: The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin. [Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus (1854): DS 2803.]”
catscans.com/catholicsite/mary.htm

Hi Tom,

I’m really learning some new truths here! I am also being blessed!

In your post you wrote:

“In fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God’s grace.”

Yes, I like that - Mary’s role to be the Virgin Mother of our Lord was God’s predestined plan and her special VOCATION. Indeed, this was her unique purpose and special gifting.

Praise to the Holiest in the height!

God bless, In Christ Craig

 

[Craig_Kennedy]

For TOM,

By the way, I forgot to thank you for the excellent link you gave on the Virgin Mary, found here:

catscans.com/catholicsite/mary.htm

There’s some great material here.

God bless, In Christ Craig

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Thank-you, Craig. I’m glad you liked our posts. Discovering and through devotion becoming involved in the wonders of what God did for the Virgin Mary is indeed one of the greatest gifts God has given me by bringing me to Catholicism. I’d have to say that Mary, the Catholic Eucharist (Jesus Christ) and being swallowed up in the majesty of absolute truth (Magesterium + Tradition + Scripture), in unity of Church, without any subjectivism remaining on matters important to the Christian faith are the highest of all the many blessings God has poured out on me in this change.

At some point we should indeed discuss the phenomenal glories of the Eucharist, as you suggest.

I think I have some time this evening or tomorrow to email you again about Sola Scriptura.

 

[benedictus2]

Most insightful post!

Hey, this makes sense and I am open to exploring these truths more.

In your post you wrote:

“. In Mary’s case, God made the saving grace of His death and resurrection, available to her even before she was conceived even though the saving event has not yet taken place.”

Yes, I can see this! The wonderful GRACE and providential blessings of God. Surely, indeed, God’s ways are past finding out!

God bless you, In Christ Craig

I am glad that’s helpful. On my way home last night I was trying to work out how to make what I wrote make sense and I got to thinking of the Transfiguraton and His descent into Hell before the ressurection. Those who have died before His coming were still saved by his life death and resurrection. Moses and Elijah were still saved by Him and so was Abraham.

The more I think about it, Mary’s Immaculate Conception only makes sense when we look at the overall economy of salvation. And the more I think about it, the more flabbergasted I am by the love and mercy of God.

There is a book called “Why Does God permit Evil” by Dom Brunno Web which clinched everything for me. The economy of salvation finally made sense. It is only a small book but an excellent one.

I have always been open about the appearances of Mary.

Out of interest, though, what criteria does the Church use in ascertaining whether a miracle is credible or not? Who gets to decide? What is the process involved?

God bless you, In Christ Craig

Here is a link on apparitions which answers some of your questions
Apparitions

 

[Craig_Kennedy]

Thank-you, Craig. I’m glad you liked our posts. Discovering and through devotion becoming involved in the wonders of what God did for the Virgin Mary is indeed one of the greatest gifts God has given me by bringing me to Catholicism. I’d have to say that Mary, the Catholic Eucharist (Jesus Christ) and being swallowed up in the majesty of absolute truth (Magesterium + Tradition + Scripture), in unity of Church, without any subjectivism remaining on matters important to the Christian faith are the highest of all the many blessings God has poured out on me in this change.

At some point we should indeed discuss the phenomenal glories of the Eucharist, as you suggest.

I think I have some time this evening or tomorrow to email you again about Sola Scriptura.

Thanks Lief,

I do appreciate your posts, as you know.

I also respect your journey in faith, as I’ve rehearsed to you many times.

As I’ve told you, I am attracted to some aspects of Roman Catholicism and, indeed, in the overall sense share large amounts of common theological ground with you.

I do not think, therefore, it will surprise you when I say that I agree with the proper devotion accorded to Mary. Although I still hold to SOLA SCRIPTURA, I see no hypocrisy or inconsistency in holding Mary in “high” honour as presented in these posts. In fact, I have even began in my personal devotions to include some appropriate Marian spirituality. All of this serves to heighten my love of the gospel of Christ!

Alas, from your point of view, I cannot share fully your view:

"…the Catholic Eucharist (Jesus Christ) and being swallowed up in the majesty of absolute truth (Magesterium + Tradition + Scripture), in unity of Church, without any subjectivism remaining on matters important to the Christian faith are the highest of all the many blessings God has poured out on me in this change. "

I do not say this, of course, to agitate you or annoy you. I say this out of honesty. I cannot concede that Scripture shares its authority with Sacred Tradition and I do not believe that Scripture affords a PLACE or SPACE to a MAGISTERIUM.

These, my friend, are the differences between us. However, they will not prevent us from being united in the Church Triumphant, in heaven.

Cheers, In Christ Craig

 

[Craig_Kennedy]

I am glad that’s helpful. On my way home last night I was trying to work out how to make what I wrote make sense and I got to thinking of the Transfiguraton and His descent into Hell before the ressurection. Those who have died before His coming were still saved by his life death and resurrection. Moses and Elijah were still saved by Him and so was Abraham.

The more I think about it, Mary’s Immaculate Conception only makes sense when we look at the overall economy of salvation. And the more I think about it, the more flabbergasted I am by the love and mercy of God.

There is a book called “Why Does God permit Evil” by Dom Brunno Web which clinched everything for me. The economy of salvation finally made sense. It is only a small book but an excellent one.

Here is a link on apparitions which answers some of your questions
Apparitions

Thanks Benedictus2,

Your points are well made, and I do accept them in this connection.

The link on apparitions is also most helpful.

I’m learning and growing here.

In Christ, Craig