To live by faith

  • Thread starter Thread starter Craig_Kennedy
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
guanophore said:
This is Catholic teaching also. God is not bound by the sacraments. They are avenues of His grace, but His grace is boundless. đź‘Ť
Click to expand...
Great Stuff, guanophore!

We are in total agreement, then, on this issue!

In Christ, Craig
 
guanophore said:
Magesterium is a Latin rendering that has passed into the Roman Catholic language. The Eastern Catholics do not use this term. However, all Catholics believe in the teaching authority appointed by Christ.

Jesus hand picked and trained the 12:

John 15:15-17
"I do not call you servants any longer, because the servant does not know what the master is doing; but I have called you friends, because I have made known to you everything that I have heard from my Father. 16 You did not choose me but I chose you. And I appointed you to go and bear fruit, fruit that will last, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask him in my name. 17 I am giving you these commands so that you may love one another. "

He made known to them everything. He then commissioned them.

Matt 28:18-20
“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Their authority is based on His, and extends to "teaching them (disciples) to obey all that He has commanded. He places them in charge of the teaching. This is reflected in the Latin term “magisterium”, or teaching authority.
Click to expand...
Hi guanophore,

I can agree, within the limits you have set in this post, that Christ instituted a Teaching Authority. I have never disputed this.

The thing I have disputed is that Christ set up a promised infallible teaching authority to the Pope, Cardinals and Bishops of THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH ALONE.

Cheers, In Christ Craig
 
benedictus2 said:
Vunderabar!! I am so happy.

I have been praying for peace for you as I felt your wearinesss yesterday,

Praised be to our most loving God.!
Click to expand...
Thank you for praying for me, Benedictus2.

Blessings, In Christ Craig
 
Hi Craig - Viva - welcome!

I woke up this morning and was pleasantly surprised!

I was reading the Church bulletin in my bath a few minutes ago and just had to share this with you:) 🙂

Thank God for church ladies with typewriters. These sentences actually
appeared in church bulletins or were announced in church services:

The Fasting & Prayer Conference includes meals. Low Self Esteem
Support Group will meet Thursday at 7pm. Please use the back door.

Ladies, don’t forget the rummage sale. It’s a chance to get rid of
those things not worth keeping around the house. Bring your husbands.

Don’t let worry kill you off - let the Church help…!

Miss Charlene Mason sang “I will not pass this way again” giving
obvious pleasure to the congregation".

At the evening service tonight, the sermon topic will be “What
is Hell”? Come early and listen to our choir practice.

The ladies of the Church have cast off clothing of every kind. They
may be seen in the basement on Friday afternoon.

:gopray2: I am also praying for you and for all on this thread :gopray2:

God bless you all
Cinette:)
 
Cinette said:
Hi Craig - Viva - welcome!

I woke up this morning and was pleasantly surprised!

I was reading the Church bulletin in my bath a few minutes ago and just had to share this with you:) 🙂

Thank God for church ladies with typewriters. These sentences actually
appeared in church bulletins or were announced in church services:

The Fasting & Prayer Conference includes meals. Low Self Esteem
Support Group will meet Thursday at 7pm. Please use the back door.

Ladies, don’t forget the rummage sale. It’s a chance to get rid of
those things not worth keeping around the house. Bring your husbands.

Don’t let worry kill you off - let the Church help…!

Miss Charlene Mason sang “I will not pass this way again” giving
obvious pleasure to the congregation".

At the evening service tonight, the sermon topic will be “What
is Hell”? Come early and listen to our choir practice.

The ladies of the Church have cast off clothing of every kind. They
may be seen in the basement on Friday afternoon.

:gopray2: I am also praying for you and for all on this thread :gopray2:

God bless you all
Cinette:)
Click to expand...
Thanks Cinette,

Yes, I see your point. LOL.

It reminds us all of the superficiality of much of modern Christianity; a Christianity devoid of substance, serious thinking and biblical doctrine.

I share with you, along with others on this forum, a love of true Christianity and a devotion to our blessed Lord Jesus Christ.

May we continue to learn and grow together in these precious things.

God bless you, In Christ Craig
 
Craig_Kennedy said:
Thanks Cinette,

Yes, I see your point. LOL.

It reminds us all of the superficiality of much of modern Christianity; a Christianity devoid of substance, serious thinking and biblical doctrine.

I share with you, along with others on this forum, a love of true Christianity and a devotion to our blessed Lord Jesus Christ.

May we continue to learn and grow together in these precious things.

God bless you, In Christ Craig
Click to expand...
Dear Craig -

We have just got home from early morning Mass. I prayed for humility and faithfullness and my heart was filled with sadness and I knew that I had to communicate my apology for my harsh words yesterday. You did not deserve it.

God bless you
Cinette:)
 
Lief_Erikson said:
That theory is not supported by anything in the Bible I know of. And it directly contradicts Revelation 21, which says that the apostles are the permanent foundation of the Church, that no one enters the city of God except through the apostles!

Revelation 21:12 says that in the city of God there are 12 gates, representing the 12 tribes of Israel (which also represent the completeness of the Church. People must pass through those gates, in other words be a part of the Church, to enter the city of God.

Then, in Rev. 21:14, it says, “And the wall of the city has twelve foundations, and on them are the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”

The gates, representing the Church, or the true paths of the Church, are of course supported by and built in the wall, the foundation of which is the apostles. Every believer must pass through the wall, the foundations of the apostles, to enter the city of God. Therefore this foundation of the apostles is an eternal bulwark for the Church, not a temporary one limited to the 1st century. Every Christian must pass through this wall to enter the city, both then and now. And this is the wall that, according to Rev. 21, keeps all that is unclean out of the Church.
Click to expand...
Hi Lief,

I believe that the Church is “built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the CHIEF CORNERSTONE.” (Ephesians 2:20)

I do not deny and, indeed, affirm that the TWELVE APOSTLES FOUNDATION given to us in Revelation 21 is that their testimony to the Lord is the foundation of the Church in all ages, Ephesians 2:20. The lord selected and combined their personalities to be effective for His purposes.

Thank you, Lief, for pointing this out. It made me go back to the scriptures and rely on God for guidance. Your comments here, as usual for you, show keen insight and analysis.

God bless you, In Christ Craig
 
Cinette said:
Dear Craig -

We have just got home from early morning Mass. I prayed for humility and faithfullness and my heart was filled with sadness and I knew that I had to communicate my apology for my harsh words yesterday. You did not deserve it.

God bless you
Cinette:)
Click to expand...
Hi Cinette,

Thanks for that - I appreciate it!

Cheers, In Christ Craig
 
Lief_Erikson said:
When you have shepherds and sheep, leaders and followers, you have a hierarchy. That’s what a hierarchy is.

I agreed with you that the Church itself is the “temple of the living God,” not an institution. It is made up of human beings. The institutional elements are the process by which the Church’s government is managed. They are not the Church itself but are the tools of the Church. Does that make sense to you?
Click to expand...
Hi Lief,

Yes, all of this makes sense to me.

Even if you allowed for a “congregational type Church polity” (and I know you DO NOT!) your words: "When you have shepherds and sheep, leaders and followers, you have a hierarchy. That’s what a hierarchy is…"do make sense. I can go along with this.

Your further words, also, make sense when you affirm the Church as a living organism but which is outwardly managed.

These principles, which you have so ably presented, of course do not settle the question of the ROMAN CATHOLIC MAGISTERIUM; but I understand that was not your intention in raising these principles.

I can see your logic here. I agree with it. Christ did institute a “teaching authority”; its just that I see it as an eldership, whereas you see it as a Magisterium.

God bless, In Christ Craig
 
Craig_Kennedy said:
I can see your logic here. I agree with it. Christ did institute a “teaching authority”; its just that I see it as an eldership, whereas you see it as a Magisterium.

God bless, In Christ Craig
Click to expand...
Can I but in and ask how you see eldership in terms of structure and function?

Does it function as a teaching authority i.e. it’s teaching is binding on the faithful?
 
guanophore said:
Magesterium is a Latin rendering that has passed into the Roman Catholic language. The Eastern Catholics do not use this term. However, all Catholics believe in the teaching authority appointed by Christ.

Jesus hand picked and trained the 12:

John 15:15-17
"I do not call you servants any longer, because the servant does not know what the master is doing; but I have called you friends, because I have made known to you everything that I have heard from my Father. 16 You did not choose me but I chose you. And I appointed you to go and bear fruit, fruit that will last, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask him in my name. 17 I am giving you these commands so that you may love one another. "

He made known to them everything. He then commissioned them.

Matt 28:18-20
“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Their authority is based on His, and extends to "teaching them (disciples) to obey all that He has commanded. He places them in charge of the teaching. This is reflected in the Latin term “magisterium”, or teaching authority.
Click to expand...
Hi guanophore,

This was a most helpful post. Thank you.

I do believe that Christ instituted a TEACHING AUTHORITY.

However, as I see it, the English word BISHOP is derived from the Greek word EPISKOPOS which literally means OVERSEER.

The OVERSEER in the New Testament is a very different person from the ecclesiastical position of BISHOP as it has developed in the Roman Catholic Church. The work of the OVERSEER is interchangeable with the word ELDER, which is derived from the Greek word PRESBUTEROS.

The word Overseer describes the nature of the work, which is spiritual and has to do with the care of souls; the word Elder, which describes the same office as Overseer, emphasises the spiritual maturity that marks the person who seeks to care for the flock.

The Overseer is a guide or leader in the Church assembly or congregation. Such a person must be, of course, blameless in character and in life, see 1 Timothy 3 and Titus1.

The scriptures also teach a plurality of Overseers or Elders in each assembly, see Philippians 1:1 and Acts 20:17. It is not ONE BISHOP over one Church or a number of Churches, but more than one Bishop (at least) caring for the spiritual needs of each Church.

In the context of which you write, viz: that the Latin term “MAGISTERIUM” means TEACHING AUTHORITY, I could subscribe that the New Testament teaches such a thing. However, my interpretation of what that teaching authority actually is and what it looks like is very different from your interpretation.

It is only your interpretation of a SPECIFIC ROMAN CATHOLIC MAGISTERIUM that I reject as being not in accord with the New Testament witness.

God bless you, In Christ Craig
 
benedictus2 said:
Can I but in and ask how you see eldership in terms of structure and function?

Does it function as a teaching authority i.e. it’s teaching is binding on the faithful?
Click to expand...
Hi Benedictus 2,

Please see my Post Number 371 in answer to guanophore. This answers your questions fully.

Blessings, In Christ Craig
 
Hi Craig, I’ve just logged in and would like to ask if you can see the practical point of God appointing one man to “hold the key” versus several or many.
Yours in Christ,
Mark
 
Thanks, Craig, for returning the favor. I always try to remember to do the sign of the cross before starting to type, otherwise…

Do you subscribe to a denomination? (Just curious.) You don’t sound like the born-again Christians I know. They would have me roasting in Hell in a jiffy just for believing in the Mother of God.
benedictus2 said:
Some are given a childlike faith and that will be all that will be asked of them. But God put on this earth great minds like St Thomas et al, because he has also created people who will need logical reasoning to come into faith.
Click to expand...
Thanks, Benedictus 2, I do respect theologians. As far as I can tell, though, the only thing they can prove through reason is the existence of a very “generic” God that created the Universe from scratch, and with that as your only weapon you are not going to convince anyone who doesn’t want to believe in the first place. Most of my life I’ve been an atheist (not an antitheist), and if I hadn’t taken the first step I doubt that God would have graced me with faith. To me, what proves Christianity without the need of faith is human experience: if the apostles hadn’t seen Jesus dead and resurrected, there’s no way they would have put themselves through martyrdom to spread his teachings.

The more I learn about Catholicism beyond the Gospels, the thinner my capacity for faith gets stretched. If you have reasonable theological proof, for example, that Mary ascended to Heaven bones and all, I’d like to hear it. I would still have faith in her if the Church taught that she was a representation of God’s feminity, or something New-Agey like that. (Having faith in her is the least we can do for our sisters.)
 
Snowy said:
…

Thanks, Benedictus 2, I do respect theologians. As far as I can tell, though, the only thing they can prove through reason is the existence of a very “generic” God that created the Universe from scratch, and with that as your only weapon you are not going to convince anyone who doesn’t want to believe in the first place. Most of my life I’ve been an atheist (not an antitheist), and if I hadn’t taken the first step I doubt that God would have graced me with faith. To me, what proves Christianity without the need of faith is human experience: if the apostles hadn’t seen Jesus dead and resurrected, there’s no way they would have put themselves through martyrdom to spread his teachings.

The more I learn about Catholicism beyond the Gospels, the thinner my capacity for faith gets stretched. If you have reasonable theological proof, for example, that Mary ascended to Heaven bones and all, I’d like to hear it. I would still have faith in her if the Church taught that she was a representation of God’s feminity, or something New-Agey like that. (Having faith in her is the least we can do for our sisters.)
Click to expand...
“To me, what proves Christianity without the need of faith is human experience” – . I love the way you say “without the need of faith……………” we see the evidence all around us every day.

*“If you have reasonable theological proof, for example, that Mary ascended to Heaven bones and all, I’d like to hear it.” *

When I was a little girl I remember learning the definition of Faith from the “Penny Catechism” – “Faith is believing without doubting whatever God has revealed”. If we understood everything there would be no need for Faith. You, Snowy claim proof without the need of faith – that is wonderful. Faith is a mystery just like the mysteries in which we believe: The Incarnation, the Paschal mystery (passion, crucifixion death, burial, descent into hell, resurrection and ascension) – we find the latter in our Creed.

The Catechism tells us that Jesus’ whole life is a Mystery. Our Faith is a mystery.

As I grew older I began to question more and I would insist that I needed to understand everything until a friend quoted Augustine to me, “Seek not to understand that you may believe but believe that you may understand.” Of course!

So, if you believe the Blessed Mother to be pure, good, full of grace, the Mother of our Lord, immaculately conceived and you also look at the many miracles and apparitions and what she teaches and stands for as she leads us to Jesus, then to believe in her ascension into heaven “bones and all” is not difficult to accept.

My husband was an atheist for many years. He converted to the Catholic Church 3 years ago. A Jewish scientist led him to believe in God. He then attended Mass with me for 11 years before he “swam the Tiber”. He would be moved during Mass by the reverence of the faithful around us. I would notice him taking off his glasses and rubbing his eyes with the palm of his hand and I knew that he was wiping away tears. I see his Faith now and his acceptance of the Church’s teachings and there is a childlike belief that is so pure and so beautiful.

Jesus told us to be like little children.

Cheers
Cinette:)
 
Craig Kennedy:
Hi Lief,

Yes, all of this makes sense to me.

Even if you allowed for a “congregational type Church polity” (and I know you DO NOT!) your words: "When you have shepherds and sheep, leaders and followers, you have a hierarchy. That’s what a hierarchy is…"do make sense. I can go along with this.

Your further words, also, make sense when you affirm the Church as a living organism but which is outwardly managed.

These principles, which you have so ably presented, of course do not settle the question of the ROMAN CATHOLIC MAGISTERIUM; but I understand that was not your intention in raising these principles.

I can see your logic here. I agree with it. Christ did institute a “teaching authority”; its just that I see it as an eldership, whereas you see it as a Magisterium.
Click to expand...
Right.

I’m very glad this much common ground is now cleared :). It makes me very happy :). That’s one more little piece of unity we now share.

And by the way, we don’t reject the role of the elders at all. The word for “elder,” in the Greek, is “presbuteros.” The English words, “presbyter,” “priest,” and “elder” all come from that word. New Testament “elders” are our “priests.” Those two words are just different English translations of the original Greek word, “presbuteros.”

It’s the same job: leadership of a local Christian community. We also recognize the other biblical roles, “episcopos” (bishop) and deacon. The meaning of these scriptural roles, while not always altogether clear in the New Testament itself, was clearly defined in the Church by the end of the first century, as we can see from the writings of St. Ignatius. And we still use them, in that original form :). Some more positions have been created when necessary, because of the simple fact of the Church’s size, nowadays, but it’s still the same basic structure. This 1st century, Bible and Fathers based structure is the closest to a scriptural model of government that can be gotten.

The same is true of the Magesterium and Papacy, as I know we’ll discuss further. They too are part of that original Biblical and Patristic model of Church government, a stupendous blessing given through the Spirit to all believers. We’ll talk about that more in the future, I know.
Craig_Kennedy said:
Hi Lief,

I believe that the Church is “built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the CHIEF CORNERSTONE.” (Ephesians 2:20)

I do not deny and, indeed, affirm that the TWELVE APOSTLES FOUNDATION given to us in Revelation 21 is that their testimony to the Lord is the foundation of the Church in all ages, Ephesians 2:20. The lord selected and combined their personalities to be effective for His purposes.

Thank you, Lief, for pointing this out. It made me go back to the scriptures and rely on God for guidance. Your comments here, as usual for you, show keen insight and analysis.

God bless you, In Christ Craig
Click to expand...
Thanks. I’m glad we can agree on some more things, now! Though I don’t agree with your interpretive shift of the word “apostles” to “apostolic testimony.” I have three points regarding this, for you.
  1. What do you do with the lack of scriptural support for this interpretation? Neither of the two passages that refer to the foundation of the apostles refers to “testimony.” The two passages that explicitly talk about it just refer to “the apostles” themselves. Their “names” are written on the foundations that support the wall, not their books of the Bible.
  2. Also, we still have Acts 1:20, which shows Matthias receive the place of “apostleship” that Judas left vacant. So we know, scripturally, that the apostles were appointing successors. And we also, of course, have heard about the reality of apostolic succession from the Early Church (the best interpretive source we could hope for), the friends of the apostles who went to martyrdom for the faith, men of great integrity who claimed to be duly appointed successors of the apostles. Whether or not you believe in their infallibility regarding matters of Sacred Tradition, they still are the very best available interpretive and historical witness to the meanings and deeds of the apostles.
  3. I have one further point, regarding this. The names of all twelve of the apostles were written on the foundations of the wall, in Revelation. However, only three of the original 12 apostles wrote books of the New Testament (John, Peter and Matthew). Nonetheless, apostles like Simon the Zealot, Matthias and Bartholemew have their names written on foundation stones of the Church, even though they aren’t even quoted in the Scripture. It is very hard for me to see the scriptural testimony of the apostles as the way they serve as eternal foundations of the Church, when only three of them wrote books of the Bible, and some of them aren’t even quoted in Scripture. Doesn’t that make sense to you?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top