To Non-Catholics: Miracles and Holy Relics

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I don’t know why that last post came out in bold letters?

But one more thing ChurchMouse. You keep saying you remember well from you Catholic days. Maybe you were taught wrong. Someone told me Catholics don’t believe that they are saints. That was wrong. You have said we “pass the line” and worship Mary. I know in My heart at least, you are wrong. Is it possible you are wrong about others also?

God Bless
Maria
 
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MariaG:
I don’t know why that last post came out in bold letters?

But one more thing ChurchMouse. You keep saying you remember well from you Catholic days. Maybe you were taught wrong. Someone told me Catholics don’t believe that they are saints. That was wrong. You have said we “pass the line” and worship Mary. I know in My heart at least, you are wrong. Is it possible you are wrong about others also?

God Bless
Maria
When Protestants make this particular claim as to why Marian devotions are improper, they are subscribing to what I like to call the “fixed-sum fallacy” concerning love. Specifically, people like churchmouse believe that any devotion we show to Mary must necessarily take something away from our worship to Jesus. In other words, any love we have for Mary must take away from the love we have for Jesus. This is completely counter to the way love really works. For example, If I’m married and eventually have a child, does my love for the newborn take away from my love of my wife? Of course not. If I have another child a couple years later, does my love for the new baby somehow take away from the love I have for the first born? Of course not. That’s simply not the way things work.

Human beings are infinite sources of love. Honoring Mary takes nothing away from worshipping Jesus. To the contrary, I would argue that it brings one closer to Him. If one wants to have a personal relationship with Jesus, it certainly couldn’t hurt to get to know his mother…
 
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Wormwood:
They place the shroud at sometime closer to the middle ages. Not that it is a fake, it just isn’t the cloth in which christ was wrapped. 🙂
Code:
The dating of the middle ages is what I was talking about. Did they speak of the bioplastic coating? Did they mention the false reading of the Mayan artifact? How about the Egyptian’s shroud?

"As Garza-Valdes was aware, if the ‘Itzamna’ were genuine it would have been used in special ritual in which the Mayan king anointed it with his own blood and, on noting patches of brownish detritus in the ‘Itzamna’s’ crevices, he took scraping of these and had them analyzed, finding them indeed positive for blood and for human DNA. When he sent samples to Arizona’s radiocarbon-dating labarotary, he learned that they dated to c.AD400, thereby conclusively overturning the dismissal of the carving as a modern fake by the two New York ‘connoisseurs’.
Even so, the puzzle about this date was that it was some six centuries later that the particular Mayan period suggested by the carving’s artistic style and it was here that Dr Garza-Valdes’s bioplastic coating discovery came into its own. Because the coating’s steady accumulation had covered all surfaces of the carving and, like plaque on teeth, is virtually invisible unless its presence is revealed by a disclosing medium, the Arizona labarotory had completely unwittingly dated this coating with the blood. The combined result therefore made the carving seem several centuries younger than it actually was.’ P224

What cannot be be emphasized enough is that if Dr G-V’s findings are valid (and at the time of writing they have yet to be fully developed and published for proper independant scrutiny), their raminifications range far beyond just the Shroud. As he himself stressed: ‘Every single ancient artefact has a covering of the bacteria or bioplastic covering. It is not a thing peculiar to the Shroud.’ P229

In which regard, and confirming that this is no mere pseudo-scientific quackery, one person to have taken a very serious interest indeed in these ideas is the already mentioned world-respected Egyptologist Dr Rosalie David of the Manchester Museum. As may be recalled, during her intensive examination of the Manchester collection’s Egyptian mummy no. 1770, Dr David had been puzzled by the British Museum radiocarbon-dating labarotory’s finding that his mummy’s bandages purportedly dated 800 to 1000 years younger than the body. Although it could not be completely ruled out that the mummy had been rewrapped 1000 years after its first interment, she did not think this likely.
Accordingly, this and other aberrant radiocarbon-dating findings, particular pertaining to linen, led her to suspect that there might be some as yet unrecognized contaminant to such wrappings that made them seem very substantially younger than they really were. However, she had no real idea what this contaminant might be until she heard of Dr Garza-Valdea buiplastic coating.’ P228

Blessings,
Shoshana
 
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Wormwood:
The only way the shroud as a relic could prove anything about the churches validity, would be if we used the blood to clone Jesus, then we could ask him ourselves 🙂
Code:
😛
 
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MariaG:
I have had “Restored Saints” (a person that believes in the book of Mormon but is not Mormon) tell me the same thing. That the Holy Spirit has guided them to all truth. I have had AoG who speak tongues who say the Spirit led them. I had a Nazarene pastor say tongues are from Satan and the Spirit led him. How can a person trust whose spirit the illumination is coming from when very God fearing men teach exactly opposite things? All can not have been led by the Holy Spirit.
Code:
You will know them by their fruits.

Blessings,
Shoshana
 
About the Shroud, it is believed that it was burned in the 13th century which would also change the carbon dating. As of this spring, the Catholic Church ceased all scientific studies on the Shroud because the image is decaying quickly. It is unlikely that it will ever be allowed for scientific study again.
 
Andrew Larkoski:
About the Shroud, it is believed that it was burned in the 13th century which would also change the carbon dating. As of this spring, the Catholic Church ceased all scientific studies on the Shroud because the image is decaying quickly. It is unlikely that it will ever be allowed for scientific study again.
Code:
Yes, the fire was already a known factor with the scientists. Actually, there was more than one fire. The central issue is the bioplastic coating. Until they are able to deal with this, radiocarbon-dating will be misconstrued…and that is for any artefact! It makes sense, that over the centuries, bacteria and protein would cover said artifact with a veneer. And this veneer is not seen with naked eye. This is where the confusion lay.

Maybe, down the road there will a simple way of carbon dating that would give us the exact date (more or less) even with bioplastic coverings.

I reinstate that the Shroud remains a mystery. The body on the Shroud cannot be duplicated in whatever means…they have tried everything to their knowledge up to this point. NO ONE can do this. Let alone all of the medical facts of this being the picture of a man crucified and it passes their tests 100%. I repeat the blood (AB) marks and the path that it took could not have been known in the period that the carbon dating suggests. The human anatomy was not known then.

What is intriguing is that the early icons were depicted as some Appollo-type of Jesus but that changed quickly to pictures that resemble the picture on the Shroud. The number 3 on the forehead of the man from the Shroud is replicated on the later icons. This is only one of the similarities. Medical people have explained the ‘3’ on the forehaed and why that ‘3’ was formed. Just another piece of the puzzle. Time will tell…

Blessings,
Shoshana
 
God can work through physical objects.

"So extraordinary were the mighty deeds God accomplished at the hands of Paul tht when face cloths or aprons that touched his skin were applied to the sick, their diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them. Acts 19:11-12."

"Insomuch as they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them. There came also a multitude out of teh cities roudn about unto Jerusalem bringing sick folks, and them who were vexed with unclean spirits; and they were healed every one." Acts 5:15-16 KJV


"And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulcher of Elisha; and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet." 2 Kings 13:21

"And a certain woman, who had an issue of blood twelve years, and had suffered many things of many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was no better, but rather grew worse, When she had heard of Jesus, come in the crowd behind, and touched his garment. For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be well. And straightway the fountain of her blood was dreid up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague." Mark 5:25-29
Her faith that by touching the mere garment would heal her, ended her plaque, Jesus gave her healing Grace through his garments.

Grace that is received from holy or blessed objects or relics is not due to the objects themselves, but because of God’s grace working through the object. This holds true with the relics of Saints, relics of Christ ie, the cross, the shroud, medals and scapulars and other Holy Objects, especially the Eucharist, which becomes the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ. It is totally Biblical to believe this, in fact I would go so far as to say it is unBiblical not to believe it. As usual I am sure a lot of people will disregard the Biblical nature of this doctrine because it does not follow the man-made traditons of Martin Luther, who objected to the use of relics and Holy and blessed objects.
 
The dating of the middle ages is what I was talking about. Did they speak of the bioplastic coating? Did they mention the false reading of the Mayan artifact? How about the Egyptian’s shroud?
Yes, and they mentioned a NEW shroud that IS carbon dated to within 30 years of christs death. It was found in an EMPTY(as in no body) tomb that had not been raided. It was on those sacred cliffs in Isreal (the ones that the orthodox jews get very upset when they are excavated.)
I repeat the blood (AB) marks and the path that it took could not have been known in the period that the carbon dating suggests. The human anatomy was not known then.
The source acredited with being the first to study anatomy is Homer (ancient Greece) 800 b.c.e. The father of anatomy was Hippocrates (who lived from 460-377 B.C.E.)The first human vivisections were in Alexandria in 332 B.C.E. The list goes on. The total number of contributions to anatomy BEFORE the birth of Christ number 25 or so. Are you saying by the middle ages they wouldn’t have known where the blood would have run? The understanding of the scientific community as of today, is that the shroud is from a later time than that suggested by the church. Also, the mere age of the cloth does not assert ownership. Like I said… lets just clone Jesus and ask him 🙂
 
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Wormwood:
Yes, and they mentioned a NEW shroud that IS carbon dated to within 30 years of christs death. It was found in an EMPTY(as in no body) tomb that had not been raided. It was on those sacred cliffs in Isreal (the ones that the orthodox jews get very upset when they are excavated.)

The source acredited with being the first to study anatomy is Homer (ancient Greece) 800 b.c.e. The father of anatomy was Hippocrates (who lived from 460-377 B.C.E.)The first human vivisections were in Alexandria in 332 B.C.E. The list goes on. The total number of contributions to anatomy BEFORE the birth of Christ number 25 or so. Are you saying by the middle ages they wouldn’t have known where the blood would have run? The understanding of the scientific community as of today, is that the shroud is from a later time than that suggested by the church. Also, the mere age of the cloth does not assert ownership. Like I said… lets just clone Jesus and ask him 🙂
Code:
That is exactly what I am saying…how the blood would’ve run due to gravity on the body of a crucified person ergo corpse. To quote the book…‘But for a cunning painter back in the 1350’s to have single-mindedly thought out the wrist-nailing feature, and to have known of the ‘snapping of the thumbs into the palms effect’ that this would cause, also to have painted on bloodflows consistent with the principles of gravity (the discovery of which lay three centuries into the future) simply beggars belief.’ P36 Ibib

You are right in saying that the mere age of the cloth does not necessarily point to Jesus’. The medical people up to now have all agreed that this was a crucified human body who was beaten and whipped to a pulp…it could not have been forged. Their statements have not been recanted even with the news of the carbondating tests. Although, this bioplastic coating will keep them pondering, and even if all the tests did prove that the Shroud was from Jesus’ era, and it certainly was a crucified corpse that lay on it in the vicinities of Jerusalem. And even the chemical signature of limestone dust from the underside of the Shroud with dust from a Jerusalem tomb match impeccably, etc etc, this still would not prove it to be Jesus’ body on this linen.

But, this is on the scientific level. And yes, you need common sense. I believe, Wormwood, that in the future, maybe not in our time, they will be able to possibly make a replica with future science technology. How, if it couldn’t be done up to now? Well, you are aware what the possible end is, don’t you? That Jesus when He was raised from the dead, the ‘nuclear’ energy that would have emanated from His body as He resurrected would’ve left the imprint on the Shroud. This in time will be replicated. I’ll bet my bottom dollar…which is not too far off! The best to you my friend!

Blessings,
Shoshnaa
 
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