To Planten or any other Muslim

[De_Maria]

…The Israellite consider the offspring to follow the line of the Father not the Mother, I think…

Correct. Which is why it is incredible that even in Genesis 3, the prophecy speaks of the “seed of the woman”.

In addition, if the mother marries a nonHebrew, the child is still considered Hebrew.

*Because in the case of a Jewish man taking a non-Jewish wife the children will not be Jewish, this prohibition is considered more serious; it is considered as if the man had become a “mechuttan” with the avodah zarah. This is the end of the line! The tradition of Jewishness transmitted from Mt. Sinai from generation to generation will not be able to continue.

*This assumes that the children will be raised by the nonJewish woman in the woman’s faith. But St. Joseph was a just man married to a Jewish woman. The Scriptures would not call him a Just man if he had married a nonJew. He would have broken the law.

• But when a Jewish woman marries a non-Jewish man, the children will be Jewish; the transmission of Jewishness will continue. The woman has violated a serious aveira, but this is not a case of yehoreig ve’al ya’avor.
  torahweb.org/torah/2006/parsha/rsch_vaeschanan.html

Note that Ruth had already converted to Judaism and had accepted her mother in law as her own mother.

Ruth 3
1 *After she was returned to her mother in law, Noemi said to her: My daughter, I will seek rest for thee, and will provide that it may be well with thee. *

Boaz, being a shrewd man, did not reveal this to his kin when he negotiated for her hand with her closest of kin:

Ruth 4 5 *And Booz said to him: When thou shalt buy the field at the woman’s hand, thou must take also Ruth the Moabitess, who was the wife of the deceased: to raise up the name of thy kinsman in his inheritance. *6 He answered: I yield up my right of next akin: for I must not cut off the posterity of my own family. Do thou make use of my privilege, which I profess I do willingly forego.

And the rest is history. A beautiful love story.

11 *Then all the people that were in the gate, and the ancients answered: We are witnesses: The Lord make this woman who cometh into thy house, like Rachel, and Lia, who built up the house of Israel: that she may be an example of virtue in Ephrata, and may have a famous name in Bethlehem: *

God be praised!

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[FaithofAbraham]

She was born of St. Joachim and St. Anne. They were faithful and devout Jews.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Where is Joachim named in the lineages of Matthew or Luke?

 

[De_Maria]

Where is Joachim named in the lineages of Matthew or Luke?

Luke 3:23 And Jesus himself was beginning about the age of thirty years; being (as it was supposed) the son of Joseph, who was of Heli

The name Eli is short for Eliakim which is a form of the name Joachim.

We know this because in the Old Testament, the high priest Joakim is also called Eliakim:
***The fact that the name ****Joakim is interchangeable with *Eliakim- and *a fortiori that **Joakim the high priest is otherwise named *Eliakim in the Douay version of Judith - leads me to identify him with Hezekiah’s chief official, Eliakim (http://www.specialtyinterests.net/eliakim.JPG) son of Hilkiah (2 Kings 18:18; Isaiah 36:3). …
specialtyinterests.net/judith.html

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Luke 3:23 And Jesus himself was beginning about the age of thirty years; being (as it was supposed) the son of Joseph, who was of Heli

The name Eli is short for Eliakim which is a form of the name Joachim.

We know this because in the Old Testament, the high priest Joakim is also called Eliakim:
***The fact that the name ****Joakim is interchangeable with *Eliakim- and *a fortiori that **Joakim the high priest is otherwise named *Eliakim in the Douay version of Judith - leads me to identify him with Hezekiah’s chief official, Eliakim (http://www.specialtyinterests.net/eliakim.JPG) son of Hilkiah (2 Kings 18:18; Isaiah 36:3). …
specialtyinterests.net/judith.html

Sincerely,

De Maria

If true, the lineage still only names a Joseph, not Mary who still appears to be a Levite.

Marc Antony put King Herod in power but Herod kind of double-crossed Antony with his support of Octavian. So naturally Herod might be on the watch for any of Antony’s offspring should they become adults and seek revenge. Herod was known to brutally eliminate any suspected opposition to his power, including his own wife and children.

Antony and Cleopatra, leaders of Rome and Egypt, had a son Alexander Helios that kind of disappeared from history after they died.

Moses was sent from Levites to Egyptians to save him from Egyptians.

Jesus was tempted by Satan to seek after worldly kingdoms. Which included Rome and Egypt, with Egypt being the inheritor of Greek, Persian, and Babylonian empires up the line.

Egypt and Rome were also the first and last persecutors of Israel.

Jesus refused Satan and for his obedience God gave him all the kingdoms of the world.

Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

 

[inJESUS]

Unless there is an absolute proof that Mary is not from David’s lineage, the point still stands.

 

[De_Maria]

If true, the lineage still only names a Joseph, not Mary who still appears to be a Levite.

True. Notice that in the original Greek, Luke does not say Joseph the son of Heli. But simply says, "Jesus…the supposed son of Joseph of Heli of Mattat etc
**blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Luk&chapter=3&verse=24&version=KJV#24

**As I mentioned before, lineage was never traced through the Mother but through the Father. Therefore it would have been rude to leave Joseph out of the lineage. And it would have been scandalous to put Mary’s name in the lineage because only illegitimate children were called “sons of the mother”.

**…***In other words Matthew is reminding the Jews of the legacy of David’s line. Why? Because what was the scuttlebutt about this young 13-year-old Jewess named Mary getting pregnant before she was married? Messing around, right? *Whenever you see in the New Testament, Jesus called “the son of Mary,” that’s derogatory. Why? It was an illegitimate birth in the eyes of the townspeople, probably…
zuserver2.star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m4/m.html
**
So, although Joseph is not the son of Heli’s loins but he is Heli’s son *in law. *Luke solved the problem by simply leaving out Mary’s name.

Marc Antony put King Herod in power but Herod kind of double-crossed Antony with his support of Octavian. So naturally Herod might be on the watch for any of Antony’s offspring should they become adults and seek revenge. … Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

I don’t understand what that has to do with anything we are discussing.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[FaithofAbraham]

De_Maria:
As I mentioned before, lineage was never traced through the Mother but through the Father. Therefore it would have been rude to leave Joseph out of the lineage. And it would have been scandalous to put Mary’s name in the lineage because only illegitimate children were called “sons of the mother”.

Rude and scandalous for who, since we are told anyway it was a virgin birth. I think the lineages are more likely for Joseph the Carpenter and Joseph of Arimathea, the two Josephs who acted as a father to Jesus.

 

[De_Maria]

If true, the lineage still only names a Joseph, not Mary who still appears to be a Levite.

I missed this statement. Why do you consider Mary a Levite?

 

[De_Maria]

Rude and scandalous for who, since we are told anyway it was a virgin birth.

For the Jews.

I think the lineages are more likely for Joseph the Carpenter and Joseph of Arimathea, the two Josephs who acted as a father to Jesus.

But you are reading Scripture according to Islamic presuppositions which have no foundation in fact.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[FaithofAbraham]

I missed this statement. Why do you consider Mary a Levite?

Elizabeth is called a daughter of Aaron and cousin to Mary in Luke. Mary is called a sister of Aaron in the Quran. So we have two definite Aarons and no David/Judah stated as relatives of Mary.

Besides all the symbolic things I’ve talked about.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

For the Jews.

Since Matthew and Luke say Jesus is born of a virgin why would it be rude for them to leave Joseph out of the lineage if it wasn’t his, since we are told anyway he isn’t the real father?

The only Jews it would be rude to are the ones who didn’t believe the virgin birth and thus either Matthew or Luke anyway.

 

[De_Maria]

Besides all the symbolic things I’ve talked about.

Symbolic things? I must have missed those as well. I hate to be a bother, but would you kindly repeat them?

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Elizabeth is called a daughter of Aaron and cousin to Mary in Luke.

I see. But there are many ways in which Elizabeth could be Mary’s kin without requiring Mary to be a Levite. The word used to describe their relationship is “kin”. Since intermarriage between the tribes was not unknown,
Aaron himself married a woman from the tribe of Judah,
one of their relavies may have intermarried giving them kinship.

Tradition tells us that Mary is the only daughter of St. Joakim and Anna. But we know that the other Mary, Mary of Alphaeus, is also related to Mary as she is called her sister. It could be that Mary of Alphaeus is somehow the connection between Elizabeth and Mary by either blood or marriage. Alphaeus is thought to be a Levite because he is mentioned as the father of Levi. Now since people were usually named after family members, it may be that both Marys’ are named after a family member in common. That would make Alphaeus married to a Davidic wife, the same as Aaron his predecessor.

As I mentioned before, we are not people of the Book. We are people of the Word of God in Sacred Tradition and Scripture.

Sacred Tradition tells us that Mary is of Davidic descent. Although we don’t know for certain how Elizabeth, a Levite, came to be her kin.

Mary is called a sister of Aaron in the Quran. So we have two definite Aarons and no David/Judah stated as relatives of Mary.

Yes, but I put no creedance in the Quran whatsoever. The Quran assumes that Mary the mother of Jesus is the same as Maryam the sister of Moses. Yet the two women were separated by centuries.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Symbolic things? I must have missed those as well. I hate to be a bother, but would you kindly repeat them?

Sincerely,

De Maria

Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Mary = Levite Cleopatra
Messiah

Hebrews 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

 

[De_Maria]

Since Matthew and Luke say Jesus is born of a virgin why would it be rude for them to leave Joseph out of the lineage if it wasn’t his, since we are told anyway he isn’t the real father?

The only Jews it would be rude to are the ones who didn’t believe the virgin birth and thus either Matthew or Luke anyway.

Correct. And since they still outnumbered Christians at that point in time, it was better not to tick them off more than necessary.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Don’t you remember that the Angel warned Joseph to take the child and the mother before he were killed. And Joseph took them to Egypt from where the Angel called them to return?

Matthew 2
13 And after they were departed, behold an angel of the Lord appeared in sleep to Joseph, saying: Arise, and take the child and his mother, and fly into Egypt: and be there until I shall tell thee. For it will come to pass that Herod will seek the child to destroy him.

14 Who arose, and took the child and his mother by night, and retired into Egypt: and he was there until the death of Herod:

15 That it might be fulfilled which the Lord spoke by the prophet, saying: Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Mary = Levite Cleopatra
Messiah

Levite Cleopatra?

Hebrews 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

If you keep reading, this explains why Jesus can’t be of the tribe of Aaron.

*12 For the priesthood being translated, it is necessary that a translation also be made of the law. **13 For he, of whom these things are spoken, is of another tribe, of which no one attended on the altar. ****14 For it is evident that our Lord sprung out of Juda: in which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priests. ***15 And it is yet far more evident: if according to the similitude of Melchisedech there ariseth another priest,

Its been fun, but I’ll be gone for eight days. God bless you in your studies.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Correct. And since they still outnumbered Christians at that point in time, it was better not to tick them off more than necessary.

Sincerely,

De Maria

So they lied not to be martyred? Somehow that doesn’t agree with their usual willingness to be martyred for preaching God’s Word, no matter who it offended.

 

[swariffin]

So they lied not to be martyred? Somehow that doesn’t agree with their usual willingness to be martyred for preaching God’s Word, no matter who it offended.

Dear FoA,

You can not put God into a test, can you? Being a martyr does not mean just like me giving speeches in the street down in the area I know where Christians are persecuted. Or, purposedly appear in public and pronounce my Christian faith where I know I will be stoned to death. The Roman Catholic Church has good criteria to determine one’s martyrdoom or not. Just read what Stephen in the Acts were doing and what happened to him.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Dear FoA,

You can not put God into a test, can you? Being a martyr does not mean just like me giving speeches in the street down in the area I know where Christians are persecuted. Or, purposedly appear in public and pronounce my Christian faith where I know I will be stoned to death. The Roman Catholic Church has good criteria to determine one’s martyrdoom or not. Just read what Stephen in the Acts were doing and what happened to him.

Sure, that’s really all another issue.

How would putting Joseph’s name in the lineage instead of Mary’s avoid irking the Jews when Matthew/Luke have already said Jesus is born to a virgin and acts as God on earth?

 

[swariffin]

Sure, that’s really all another issue.

How would putting Joseph’s name in the lineage instead of Mary’s avoid irking the Jews when Matthew/Luke have already said Jesus is born to a virgin and acts as God on earth?

Dear FoA,

Matthew and Luke did. Both writers clearly stated that Jesus was not a decendent of Joseph. When Luke said in Luke 3:23-38 he carefully put “(as was supposed)”. I got it from the KJV. Matthew wrote his gospel around the 70’s AD, (somebody argued even earlier). Jesus himself never said publicly “Hey you guys, I am God, worship me” as Planten would like to see in the bible.