To Planten or any other Muslim

[inJESUS]

Jews did not consider Son of God to mean from God’s seed, but rather to be of the most righteous.

ok

you are of you father the devil is not sexual as well . Ok

in both cases it is not sexual, yet when it comes to Jesus, the seed of David means sexual. Lets assume there is no other interpretation, then how is this related to a virgin birth when Jesus could have been born of the seed of David with sexual union?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

so with whom?

if we assume that being from the seed of David is meant sexually, who said that being from the seed of David necessitates a virgin birth? i just cat follow you…if it is sexual, they why the virgin birth?

If you read the verses they will explain it all, I can’t really add to what I’ve already said.

2 Samuel 11:27 And when the mourning was past, David sent and fetched her to his house, and she became his wife, and bare him a son. But the thing that David had done displeased the LORD.

2 Samuel 12:19 But when David saw that his servants whispered, David perceived that the child was dead: therefore David said unto his servants, Is the child dead? And they said, He is dead.

Ezekiel 37:5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:

Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Quran 3:59 Lo! the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he is.

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

 

[zerinus]

That logic would need to apply to not only being his immediate son, but his grandson in all future generations, if it applied at all. So it can’t because Jesus is made from David’s seed, and simply says Jesus rules even over David.

No, you are totally ignoring what is being said.

Jews did not consider Son of God to mean from God’s seed, but rather to be of the most righteous.

That is not true either. The context of the whole New Testament story (which I will not go into here) reveals that they knew exactly what the implications of His statement was. They hated Him for it. They tried to stone Him for it. They called Him a blasphemer for it (because He was making Himself “equal with God” in their estimation). They even ultimately crucified Him for it! What more evidence do you want?

I don’t blame you too much though. I know how hard it is for the mindset of a Moslem to accept the idea of Jesus (or anybody else for that matter) being the “Son of God” in the unique sense that Christians understand it. Nevertheless, be that as it may, it is true though.

zerinus

 

[inJESUS]

If you read the verses they will explain it all, I can’t really add to what I’ve already said.

you are quoting and quoting but i still do not understand what does all this have to do with why Jesus was born without sexual union! and if you say there was a sexual union related to “the seed of David”, then what does this have to do with the fact He was born without sexual union when He could have been born to the seed of David out of normal sexual union?

put it in simple words, why was Jesus born with no sexual union?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

No, you are totally ignoring what is being said.

That is not true either. The context of the whole New Testament story (which I will not go into here) reveals that they knew exactly what the implications of His statement was. They hated Him for it. They tried to stone Him for it. They called Him a blasphemer for it (because He was making Himself “equal with God” in their estimation). They even ultimately crucified Him for it! What more evidence do you want?

I don’t blame you too much though. I know how hard it is for the mindset of a Moslem to accept the idea of Jesus (or anybody else for that matter) being the “Son of God” in the unique sense that Christians understand it. Nevertheless, be that as it may, it is true though.

zerinus

They wanted to kill him for being a false prophet saying he was Messiah, which all Jews will tell you only means a human descendant of David, not a God.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

you are quoting and quoting but i still do not understand what does all this have to do with why Jesus was born without sexual union! and if you say there was a sexual union related to “the seed of David”, then what does this have to do with the fact He was born without sexual union when He could have been born to the seed of David out of normal sexual union?

 

[inJESUS]

They wanted to kill him for being a false prophet saying he was Messiah, which all Jews will tell you only means a human descendant of David, not a God.

the passage being referred to do is when they wanted to stone Him saying by saying " you make yourself equal to God"…they did not say because you proclaim to be the Messiah.

as to jews, they will tell you many things about the Messiah, not all are necesarily true, otherwise you’d be a Jew if you believe they have the correct undertanding of everything, won’t you?

 

[inJESUS]

inJESUS;3179308:

God had to resurrect David’s child and put him into Mary as a surrogate mother so that the child could obtain his inheritance and kingdom from David so that God would not be called a liar for not fulfilling David’s promise of an eternal kingdom for his son made from his seed.

Jesus is the incarnation of David’s son??? or is Jesus *actually *David’s son that died previously?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Jesus is the incarnation of David’s son??? or is Jesus *actually *David’s son that died previously?

He is David’s son come to claim his reward of the kingdom, that’s the whole point. Elsewhere you say God always existed eternally, but the human spirit of Jesus did not. Well here’s why, it’s because Jesus is human son of David, not God.

As Messiah he is simply given power of God over the people, even David.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

the passage being referred to do is when they wanted to stone Him saying by saying " you make yourself equal to God"…they did not say because you proclaim to be the Messiah.

as to jews, they will tell you many things about the Messiah, not all are necesarily true, otherwise you’d be a Jew if you believe they have the correct undertanding of everything, won’t you?

All prophets make themselves equal to God’s authority, people are supposed to obey them as God’s Word on earth. As I’ve posted elsewhere with Moses.

 

[zerinus]

They wanted to kill him for being a false prophet saying he was Messiah, which all Jews will tell you only means a human descendant of David, not a God.

Then you don’t know the Bible. It is that simple:

Mark 14:

60 And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?

61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?

62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

63 Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?

64 Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.

John 10:

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

John 19:

7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

zerinus

 

[De_Maria]

All prophets make themselves equal to God’s authority,

Not true.

True Prophets speak the Word of God. Therefore God makes them authoritative, but not equal to God.

people are supposed to obey them as God’s Word on earth.

Correct. Because they obey the Word of God.

As I’ve posted elsewhere with Moses.

Soooo? Why was Jesus born without a biological father?

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Not true.

True Prophets speak the Word of God. Therefore God makes them authoritative, but not equal to God.

Well yes, God puts them all in the position, then they claim the authority of God since they speak for God. When Jews doubted their authority they killed and persecuted the prophets as Jesus said.

Not that they say they are Gods.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Then you don’t know the Bible. It is that simple:

Mark 14:

60 And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?

61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?

7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

zerinus

It is a title for Messiah, and has always been used to refer to a special role as a servant of God. Nothing to do with coming from God’s sperm like a Zeus mating with a mortal.

Psalms 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Same as this:

Exodus 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

 

[paarsurrey]

Paar is an Ahmadi…his views contradict the Quran when he says it is no miracle

Hi

Kindly quote from Quran where GodAllahYHWH declares conception of Mary of Jesus without a father as a Miracle. We do believe that Mary got conception of Jesus without a human father, which is not a common phenomenon, so it could be called a uncommon thing but it is no miracle- Quran does not declare it a miracle. Jesus also took no pride in having birth witout a father. Kindly quote also from Jesus where he took pride in being without a father. He did not present it as a Sign to Jews, if he would have taken pride in it or taken it as a miracle he would have presented it before Jews as such.

Please

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

how can Jesus talk about a miracle that can neither be seen, nor proven?

Hi

So the above proves, in my opinion, that conception of Mary for birth of a child later named as Jesus was not a miracle, as that can neither be seen, nor proven. Mary was only consoled by GodAllahYHWH by sending an angel to inform her that this UNCOMMON but natural thing was going to happen, this (giving a tiding) is also very natural and Mary shares that with other godfearing women. GodAllahYHWH does talk with His friends in this way. It is mentioned in Quran.

[41:31] As for those who say, ‘Our Lord is Allah;’ and then remain steadfast, the angels descend on them, reassuring them: **'Fear not, nor grieve; and rejoice in the glad tidings **of the Garden which you were promised;
[41:32] 'We are your friends in this life and in the Hereafter. Therein you will have all that your souls will desire, and therein you will have all that you will ask for -
[41:33] ‘An entertainment from the Most Forgiving, Merciful God.’
[41:34] And who is better in speech than he who invites men to Allah and does righteous deeds and says, ‘I am, surely, of those who submit?’
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?submitCh=Read+from+verse%3A&ch=41&verse=24

We love Jesus, Mary and Apostles, as they are mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Hi

Kindly quote from Quran where GodAllahYHWH declares conception of Mary of Jesus without a father as a Miracle. We do believe that Mary got conception of Jesus without a human father, which is not a common phenomenon, so it could be called a uncommon thing but it is no miracle- Quran does not declare it a miracle. Jesus also took no pride in having birth witout a father. Kindly quote also from Jesus where he took pride in being without a father. He did not present it as a Sign to Jews, if he would have taken pride in it or taken it as a miracle he would have presented it before Jews as such.

Please

Thanks

If God forming Jesus from dust and putting him in Mary isn’t a miracle, what kind of thing to you would be a miracle?

 

[paarsurrey]

All the Gospels that say she was a virgin, as well as the Quran. It is what it is, now we have to explain why it needed to be that way.

Hi

To be more precise, Quran only says that Jesus was born from Mary, Mary was not touched by any human being for conception, so Jesus had no father. Quran does not say it in so many words that Mary was a virgin.

Please quote from Quran.

Thanks

 

[zerinus]

It is a title for Messiah, and has always been used to refer to a special role as a servant of God. Nothing to do with coming from God’s sperm like a Zeus mating with a mortal.

Psalms 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Same as this:

Exodus 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Not true! You are using the scriptures selectively. I give you a set of scriptures that provide the right context for understanding all of them. You ignore half, and then put your own slant on what is left. That is not the right way to understand the Bible—or the Koran. Is that how you interpret the Koran?

Here are some more scriptures for you to look at. Let’s see how you will get around these:

John 1:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

---

9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

zerinus

 

[De_Maria]

Hi

Kindly quote from Quran where GodAllahYHWH declares conception of Mary of Jesus without a father as a Miracle. We do believe that Mary got conception of Jesus without a human father, which is not a common phenomenon, so it could be called a uncommon thing but it is no miracle- Quran does not declare it a miracle.

You must not know the definition of miracle:

any amazing or wonderful occurrence
a marvellous event manifesting a supernatural act of God
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
Now, since the conception of Jesus in the Quran depicts that Allah sent His Spirit to Mary and thereby she conceived. And since this is acclaimed by all a marvelous event, then by definition the conception of Jesus Christ in the womb of Mary by the supernatural act of God is a miracle.

So, the Quran does not need to say it is a miracle. It has already illustrated that fact.

Jesus also took no pride in having birth witout a father. Kindly quote also from Jesus where he took pride in being without a father.

Jesus has a Father. God the Father is His Father. He always said He has a Father. He always points to His Father in Heaven.

Matthew 10
32 Every one therefore that shall confess me before men, I will also confess him before my Father who is in heaven.

But Jesus does not have a biological father.

He did not present it as a Sign to Jews,

Yes, He did. He called Himself the Son of God:
John 11
4 And Jesus hearing it, said to them: This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God: that the Son of God may be glorified by it.

if he would have taken pride in it or taken it as a miracle he would have presented it before Jews as such.

He did. And it infuriated them so they crucified Him.

Please

Thanks

I hope that helps.

Sincerely,

De Maria