To Planten or any other Muslim

[inJESUS]

Reuben J;3172473:

And to say that, I know im VERY confident in my faith for them to unable to give a logical answer. I know i wont have to convert

actually i’ve been asking Muslim for an answer for years…

 

[planten]

dolphinlove;3172505:

actually i’ve been asking Muslim for an answer for years…

That is all your business, i.e. the birth of Jesus. I had given up long ago. There is one friend here (paar) dealing with the matter. I don’t know why that is not enough for you or for all of us, from all of us. You are saying as if it is a serious problem and no one is replying to you.
Some one is replying and all are reading. We are trying to understand what is being said. You also please present your side of the story so that we all become wise about the birth of Jesus. So far we have understood that only conception was miraculous but birth was quite normal / natural. Unless I understood it wrong.

 

[Selene]

Hi

Some friends here want to know as to why Jesus was born without a father?

There could be several answers to this “why?”

1. This was a warning to the Jews that their part in the Covenant was finished, due to their continuous antagonism for the ProphetsMessengers of GodAllahYHWH; no more ProphetsMessengers from their off-springs would come. They (the Jews )would only witness wrath of GodAllahYHWH and destruction to them and their city Jerusalem; and that is what happened.

The Jews were already told that there would come a Messiah who will be born from a virgin. The prophecy was fulfilled. This was Jesus.

1. **The Jews **were a male dominant people; they were now symbolically told that they were destined **not to father any ProphetMessenger **of GodAllahYHWH. Now the time had come for a change of hands from Isaac to the descendants of Ishmael.

That is what I understand; others could differ if they opt to.

Thanks

God never goes back on his promises. His promise was through Issac, and God does not change his mind the way humans do.

 

[paarsurrey]

inJESUS;3172683:

So far we have understood that only conception was miraculous but birth was quite normal / natural.

Hi

I think Quran/Islam/Muhammad does not mention that even the conception was as some say “miraculous”. If it would have been"miraculous" , then Jesus must have mentioned it before the Jews as a miracle, he never did it, so one should respect him and one should not exceed Jesus in such matters.

Moreover Jesus never took any pride in it, so we must also not take pride in it. We admit that the conception was “uncommon” nevertheless natural. Conception without a male is existent in some animals/insects; we cannot treat them divine or son of a divine.

Well, this we believe from Quran/Islam/Muhammad; and science is also a witness to it.

I respect your faith, which has a different view.

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

Reuben J;3172473:

And to say that, I know im VERY confident in my faith for them to unable to give a logical answer. I know i wont have to convert

Hi

This only shows that we don’t want to convert you unless you or anybody els is convinced heart and mind. We are providing answers to your questions from Quran/Islam/Muhammad, it is upto you to accept them or not accept them.

I respect you also.

Thanks

 

[FaithofAbraham]

inJESUS;3165279:

If they answer this with a realistic answer, i will become a muslim!

Quran 3:59 Lo! the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he is.

2 Samuel 12:13-14 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die. Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Ezekiel 37:4-6 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Matthew 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?

Matthew 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

 

[dolphinlove]

dolphinlove;3165685:

Quran 3:59 Lo! the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust

, then He said unto him: Be! and he is.

2 Samuel 12:13-14 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die. Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Ezekiel 37:4-6 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Matthew 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?

Matthew 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Firstly i dont believe the quran, and the text that you pulled out of it does not relate to me now does it?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Firstly i dont believe the quran, and the text that you pulled out of it does not relate to me now does it?

Well it’s for whoever.

 

[inJESUS]

but we do understand the why…we are asking Muslims…since nothing happens without a reason, we are asking for the reason from Islam that teaches this already.

I had given up long ago.

do you mean you got no answer?

There is one friend here (paar) dealing with the matter. I don’t know why that is not enough for you or for all of us, from all of us.

Paar is an Ahmadi…his views contradict the Quran when he says it is no miracle, don’t you think? what he did is trying to prpve it is not a miracle, do YOU agree? if not, why should we agree?

You are saying as if it is a serious problem and no one is replying to you.

not a problem, but a serious question we have minds to question and understand, if we want to understand…if not, that’s another issue.

You also please present your side of the story so that we all become wise about the birth of Jesus.

Jesus is the eternal Logos incarnate. Not an ordinary human born out of physical union.

So far we have understood that only conception was miraculous but birth was quite normal / natural. Unless I understood it wrong.

you understood correctly. Mary gave birth to Jesus, but without a man. The question is why did God do this? to prove what?

 

[inJESUS]

FaithofAbraham,

how does your quotes answer the “why”? with God everything is possible, of course, but how does this answer the “why”?

 

[inJESUS]

thinking does not make the claim valid. In the Quran, an angel was sent specifically to annouce the conception of Jesus. It’s not that Mary got pregnant out of a sudden, and then thought to herself :“yea pretty normal”…otherwise there woudn’t be a need to an angel …

that If it would have been"miraculous" , then Jesus must have mentioned it before the Jews as a miracle, he never did it

, so one should respect him and one should not exceed Jesus in such matters. how can Jesus talk about a miracle that can neither be seen, nor proven? it is a miracle believed by faith only, not something to be talked about as a verifiable miracle…so what is the reason for a miracle that can be neither seen, nor verified by humans?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

InJesus:

you understood correctly. Mary gave birth to Jesus, but without a man. The question is why did God do this? to prove what?

The Quran says Mary was sister to Aaron, Luke says cousin to the Levites. Thus all evidence in the Bible and Quran says Mary was a Levite. The symbolism is there, the New Melchizedek Priesthood and Covenant born out of the Old Levite Priesthood and Covenant. Again, with Mary as the Ark of the Covenant as a Catholic here already said.

But the question is how can Jesus be Messiah if he needs to descended from Judah and David, not Levi, and if Jesus was made from the seed of David according to the flesh?

The only answer, if all that is true, is that God made Jesus from the seed of David and put him in Mary, having done similar with Adam by creating him from dust and placing him in the Garden of Eden.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

Planten you wrote in another thread:

Quran tells us that God arranged her marriage i.e. God selected her husband. It is a long story. Husband is not named in the Quran but we know it from the bible that it was Joseph.

My question is : why was Jesus born without a biological father?

Who was the “father” of the staff, the manna from the wilderness, and the tablets of the Decalogue at one time in the Ark?

Just as Moses (and I suppose Aaron) is the “father” given those things directly from God, Joseph is the “father” of Jesus.

Jesus’ physicality could only come from a pure source, which no human “father” could provide, and which would have “intimated” that the giver of the contents of the Ark was “an impure creature” and not God Himself.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Jesus’ physicality could only come from a pure source, which no human “father” could provide, and which would have “intimated” that the giver of the contents of the Ark was “an impure creature” and not God Himself.

The Bible says Jesus was made of the seed of David, and there is no way he could be the prophesied Messiah if he wasn’t.

 

[inJESUS]

The only answer, if all that is true, is that God made Jesus from the seed of David and put him in Mary, having done similar with Adam by creating him from dust and placing him in the Garden of Eden.

what if Jesus was born normally? what would have changed?

 

[zerinus]

The Quran says Mary was sister to Aaron, Luke says cousin to the Levites. Thus all evidence in the Bible and Quran says Mary was a Levite. The symbolism is there, the New Melchizedek Priesthood and Covenant born out of the Old Levite Priesthood and Covenant. Again, with Mary as the Ark of the Covenant as a Catholic here already said.

But the question is how can Jesus be Messiah if he needs to descended from Judah and David, not Levi, and if Jesus was made from the seed of David according to the flesh?

The only answer, if all that is true, is that God made Jesus from the seed of David and put him in Mary, having done similar with Adam by creating him from dust and placing him in the Garden of Eden.

The Bible says Jesus was made of the seed of David, and there is no way he could be the prophesied Messiah if he wasn’t.

It is generally agreed that Mary was of the seed of David (see Luke 1:32). She was related to Elizabeth by marriage; but her own lineage was that of David. Joseph also was of the seed of David (see Luke 2:4; Luke 1:27; Matt. 1:16, 20; Luke 3:23–31). Therefore even if Mary had not been of the lineage of David, if Jesus had been born through a natural union of Joseph and Mary, He would have still have been of the “seed of David,” and that prophecy would still have been fulfilled. He did not have to be born without a natural father in order to fulfill that prophecy. Lineage is counted through the line of the father, not of the mother.

zerinus

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CalmDownWisWins
Jesus’ physicality could only come from a pure source, which no human “father” could provide, and which would have “intimated” that the giver of the contents of the Ark was “an impure creature” and not God Himself.

The Bible says Jesus was made of the seed of David, and there is no way he could be the prophesied Messiah if he wasn’t.

Our Blessed Mother Mary was of the house of David herself.

Next objection?

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

what if Jesus was born normally? what would have changed?

The entire universe would be meaningless.

Luckily, or rather OBVIOUSLY, that wasn’t the case. Now you know the actual answer to your question, are you going to argue with it?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

It is generally agreed that Mary was of the seed of David (see Luke 1:32). She was related to Elizabeth by marriage; but her own lineage was that of David. Joseph also was of the seed of David (see Luke 2:4; Luke 1:27; Matt. 1:16, 20; Luke 3:23–31). Therefore even if Mary had not been of the lineage of David, if Jesus had been born through a natural union of Joseph and Mary, He would have still have been of the “seed of David,” and that prophecy would still have been fulfilled. He did not have to be born without a natural father in order to fulfill that prophecy. Lineage is counted through the line of the father, not of the mother.

zerinus

Nothing in the lineages of Matthew or Luke say anything about Mary. All that is said about her lineage is that she is cousin to a Levite. Remember there is also a tradition about Arimathea who came along after the first Joseph. It’s very likely if he adopted Jesus as his son that Arimathea was counted as the father of Jesus too, thus the two Joseph lineages.

And then also, Jesus was not from either by a sexual union anyway.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

what if Jesus was born normally? what would have changed?

All the Gospels that say she was a virgin, as well as the Quran. It is what it is, now we have to explain why it needed to be that way.