To Planten or any other Muslim

[Selene]

I would request my Christians friends here, to just point out what common points they see in the conception of John to his mother and conception of Jesus to Mary in the above quoted verses of Quran. I think this detail, to my knowledge, is not available in NTBible though it came alomost 600 years before Quran.

Thanks

The Qur’an compares the creation of Jesus to that of Adam: 'God would have you think of Jesus as you think of Adam, created by God from the dust, saying to him “Be” and into being he came. According to the Qur’an:

Sura 3:59-60 Surely the likeness of Isa is with Allah as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, Be, and he was. (This is) the truth from your Lord, so be not of the disputers.

Adam had been created directly by God. He had neither father nor mother. Jesus too was direcly created by God in Mary’s womb. However, the Qur’an insists that the virgin birth does not mean that Jesus was of divine origin.

What is interesting about the Qur’an is that it calls Jesus “the Word of God.” (Sura 4:171) and a “Word from God” (Sura 3:39 and 3:45). The arabic words Kalimatuhu (Word of God) and Kalimatun minhu (Word from God) are considered to be one title according to Muslim commentators.

Some Muslim scholars say that Jesus is called the "Word of God’ and "Word from God’ because his existance came through God’s creative word, ‘Be.’ Because Jesus had no human father like Adam, it was more appropriate to attribute his existence to God’s creative command. Other Muslim scholars say that Jesus is called the “Word of God” and the “Word from God” because of the powerful way he preached God’s Word.

These explainations of Jesus as “the Word of God” however, leave us with some questions. If Jesus is called 'the Word of God" because of the way he was created, which is similar to the way Adam was created according to the Qur’an, then why is Adam not also called ‘the Word of God?’ And if it was because Jesus powerfully preached God’s Word as some Muslim scholars assumed, then why is Muhammad not honored with this same title? In order to find the true meaning of the title “Word of God” we must consider it in the context of the Gospel in which it first appeared before the Qur’an was even created (John 1:1-18).

In Sura 4:171, the verse that describes Jesus as God’s Word, also called Jesus ‘a Spirit from him.’ The context indicates that him refers to God, but some Muslims explain this title in connection with Gabriel. In Arabic, the words for “spirit” ruh and for “breath” rih are very similar. Jesus is ‘a spirit’ in the sense that he was created through the breathing of Gabriel into Mary. It is worth noting, however, that the Qur’an makes a distinction between the angels and the spirit (See Sura 70:4, 78:38, and 97:4). In the New Testament, Jesus is called a “spirit” in just one verse: "The first man Adam became a living being:; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit (1 Corthians 15:45). The context here suggests that the espression 'a life-giving spirit refers to the risen Christ whose victory over death enables him to grant new life to those who trust in him. The Gospels clearly distingusih between the angel Gabriel and the Holy Spirit.

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi

While I was surfing about Mary, I came across a note which was new to me “Pope Benedict X is now considered an antipope”. Why?
Anybody, anythoughts on this concept of “antipope”?

Thanks

 

[dolphinlove]

Hi

While I was surfing about Mary, I came across a note which was new to me “Pope Benedict X is now considered an antipope”. Why?
Anybody, anythoughts on this concept of “antipope”?

Thanks

What source did you get this from?
Ive not heard nor come across such a statement or story.

 

[paarsurrey]

John, in his mother’s womb, bowed to Jesus, in Mary’s womb

.

Hi

This is not mentioned in Quran.
Who documented it, please?

Thanks

 

[Selene]

By the way, the Catholic Church does not recognize the Qur’an as truth or divine inspiration from God. We do know that Muslims worship the same God of Abraham as the Jews and Christians, but whoever wrote the Qur’an has Gnostic literature in them. Whoever wrote the Qur’an was well aware of the Jewish Torah, the Christian Bible, and Gnostic literature. All three can be found in the Qur’an. The part in the Qur’an that says that Jesus was not crucified came from Gnostism. The Catholic Church does not recognize Gnostism as divine truth.

 

[paarsurrey]

By the way, the Catholic Church does not recognize the Qur’an as truth or divine inspiration from God. We do know that Muslims worship the same God of Abraham as the Jews and Christians, but whoever wrote the Qur’an has Gnostic literature in them. Whoever wrote the Qur’an was well aware of the Jewish Torah, the Christian Bible, and Gnostic literature. All three can be found in the Qur’an. The part in the Qur’an that says that Jesus was not crucified came from Gnostism. The Catholic Church does not recognize Gnostism as divine truth.

Hi

You have the right to differ with me, no problem, it is your free will that I respect.
We are only trying to understand the phenomenon.

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[paarsurrey]

The Qur’an compares the creation of Jesus to that of Adam:

Hi

You are right to point out that Jesus conception/birth is comparable to John’s conception/birth from one angle. It is also comparable with Adam’s conception/birth in another angle; more so because Jesus says himself **Son of Adam **more emphatically.There could be more comparisons also, I think.

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut

 

[De_Maria]

Hi

I also say “Happy new year to everybody on the CAF”.

Thanks

Thanks. You also.

 

[De_Maria]

Hi

Quran/Islam/Muhammad maintain, in my opinion, that conception to Mary is though a rare phenomenon in human beings nevetheless it is there; so it is natural. Quran has a whole chapter # 19 devoted to Mary called Surah Maryam.

GodAllahYHWH has drawn a parallel, in my opinion, between the birth of John the Baptist or Yahya (a consin of Jesus) and the birth of Jesus or Issa, Quan has started the chapter Maryam, I think, I should better quote it here for better understanding of the members:
Conception of John the Baptist to His Mother

[19:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[19:2] Kaf Ha Ya 'Ain Sad.
[19:3] This is an account of the mercy of thy Lord shown to His servant Zachariah,
[19:4] When he called upon his Lord in a low voice.
[19:5] He said, 'My Lord, my bones have indeed become feeble and my head is all aflame with hoariness but never, my Lord, have I been unblessed in my prayer to Thee;
[19:6] 'And I fear my relations after me, and my** wife is barren**. So grant me from Thyself a successor,
[19:7] ‘To be my heir and the heir of the blessings of the House of Jacob. And make him, my Lord, well-pleasing to Thee.’
[19:8] God said, ‘O Zachariah, We give thee glad tidings of a son whose name shall be Yahya. We have not called any one before him by that name.’ **
[19:9] He said, 'My Lord, how shall I have a son when my wife is barren, and I have reached the extreme limit of old age?
[19:10] The angel bearing the revelation said, ‘So shall it be.’ But thy Lord says, ‘It is easy for ME, and indeed I created thee before, when thou wast nothing.’ **
[19:11] Zachariah said, ‘My Lord appoint for me a commandment.’ God said, ‘The commandment for thee is that thou shalt not speak to the people for three successive days and nights.’
[19:12] Then he came forth unto his people from the chamber and asked them in a low voice to glorify GOD morning and evening. **
[19:13] God said, ‘O Yahya, hold fast the Book.’ And We gave him wisdom while yet a child, [19:14] And tenderness of heart from US and purity, and he was pious,
[19:15] And dutiful towards his parents. And he was not haughty and rebellious.
[19:16] And peace was on him the day he was born, and the day he died, and peace will be on him the day he will be raised up to life again. **
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?ch=19&verse=10

Thanks

John the Baptist’s biological father is Zecheriah.

Why did God perform the miracle of the conception and birth of Jesus with no biological father?

 

[De_Maria]

Hi

Conception of Jesus or Issa to His Mother Mary

[19:17] And relate the story of Mary as mentioned in the Book, when she withdrew from her people to an eastern place;
[19:18] And screened herself off from them. Then We sent Our angel to her and he appeared to her in the form of a well proportioned man.[19:19] She said, ‘I seek refuge with the Gracious God from thee if indeed thou dost fear Him.’
[19:20] The angel said, ‘I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that **I may give thee glad tidings of a righteous son.’ **[19:21] She said, 'How can I have a son when no man has touched me, neither have I been unchaste?’
[19:22] The angel said, ‘Thus it shall be.’ **But says thy Lord, ‘It is easy for ME; and We shall do so that We may make him a Sign unto men, and a mercy from US, and it is a thing decreed.’
[19:23] So she conceived him, and withdrew with him to a remote place. **[19:24] And the pains of child-birth drove her unto the trunk of a palm-tree. She said, 'O, would that I had died before this and had become a thing quite forgotten!
[19:25] Then the angel called her from beneath her, saying, 'Grieve not. Thy Lord has placed a rivulet below thee;
[19:26] 'And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree; it will drop upon thee fresh ripe dates;
[19:27] 'So, eat and drink and cool thine eye. And if thou seest any man, say, ‘I have vowed a fast to the Gracious God; I will, therefore, not speak this day to any human being.’
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?ch=19&verse=20

I would request my Christians friends here, to just point out what common points they see in the conception of John to his mother and conception of Jesus to Mary in the above quoted verses of Quran. I think this detail, to my knowledge, is not available in NTBible though it came alomost 600 years before Quran.

Thanks

I have no idea what you are trying to prove here, but it seems off topic. Mary’s biological father is named St. Joachim.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[paarsurrey]

Originally Posted by Selene
The Qur’an compares the creation of Jesus to that of Adam:

Hi

As rightly observed by you, Adam and Son of Adam i.e. JesusYeshuaIssa were both created of clay, hence Qur’an compares the creation of Jesus to that of Adam.I undestand that according to Bible, human life started about 7000 years ago with the creation of Adam from clay, if I am wrong, please correct me.

This has to be seen in the light of the present day knowledge:

Mankind existed long before Adam and Eve came to be born. Western scientists themselves discovered the remains of many a prehistoric man and labelled them under different distinctive titles. Neanderthal man is perhaps the most widely known of them. They lived between 100,000 to 35,000 years ago, mostly in the regions of Europe, Near East and Central Asia. A carcass of a fully developed human being has been discovered, who happened to roam the earth about 29,000 years before Adam and Eve are known to have begun their short lived sojourn in paradise. At that time, human beings were physically just like us and lived in Europe, Africa and Asia, and later during the Ice Age they spread to the Americas as well. Again in Australia, the authentic cultural history of Aborigines is traceable up to 40,000 years ago.

Compared to these relatively recent times, a skeleton of a female from Hedar in Ethiopia has been discovered which is 2.9 million years old. Now according to the Biblical chronology, Adam and Eve lived around six thousand years ago. One may look back in wonderment at the reported history of human beings, or Homo Sapiens as they are titled in scientific jargon.
alislam.org/library/books/christianity_facts_to_fiction/chapter_2.html#pgfId-1006090

My curasity; how my Christian friends reconcile both these concepts?

I think it is directly related with the issue under discussion.

Thanks

 

[De_Maria]

Hi

As rightly observed by you, Adam and Son of Adam i.e. JesusYeshuaIssa were both created of clay, hence Qur’an compares the creation of Jesus to that of Adam.I undestand that according to Bible, human life started about 7000 years ago with the creation of Adam from clay, if I am wrong, please correct me.

Sure. As you know, the Quran instructs Mohammed to confirm his own message in the Scriptures that came before him.

And when there came to them an Apostle from Allah verifying that which they have, a party of those who were given the Book threw the Book of Allah behind their backs as if they knew nothing. S. 2:101 Shakir

This particular message which you attribute to the Quran, that Jesus is made of clay, is a direct contradiction of the Bible. Therefore, this Quran which was put together by Uthman does not verify what we have in the Bible and therefore must be corrupt.

That must be why Uthman burned the original.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[inJESUS]

.

Hi

This is not mentioned in Quran.
Who documented it, please?

Thanks

Al-Tabari wrote the following:

“She [Mary] came to her sister who was then pregnant and to whom the birth of the Baptist had been announced. When the two met, the Baptist’s mother felt that her child was bowing within her in recognition of Jesus…”

and Al-Qurtubi also wrote that:

"The sister visited Mary and said, ‘O Mary, do you perceive that I am with child?’ Mary answered, ‘Do you see that I am also with child?’ Her sister went on, ‘I feel the child in my womb bowing down to the child in your womb.’"

**“It is reported that she felt the fetus in her womb bow down with its head turned toward Mary’s womb.” **

 

[inJESUS]

Hi

You are right to point out that Jesus conception/birth is comparable to John’s conception/birth from one angle.

 

[swariffin]

Hi

As rightly observed by you, Adam and Son of Adam i.e. JesusYeshuaIssa were both created of clay, hence Qur’an compares the creation of Jesus to that of Adam.I undestand that according to Bible, human life started about 7000 years ago with the creation of Adam from clay, if I am wrong, please correct me.

This has to be seen in the light of the present day knowledge:

Mankind existed long before Adam and Eve came to be born. Western scientists themselves discovered the remains of many a prehistoric man and labelled them under different distinctive titles. Neanderthal man is perhaps the most widely known of them. They lived between 100,000 to 35,000 years ago, mostly in the regions of Europe, Near East and Central Asia. A carcass of a fully developed human being has been discovered, who happened to roam the earth about 29,000 years before Adam and Eve are known to have begun their short lived sojourn in paradise. At that time, human beings were physically just like us and lived in Europe, Africa and Asia, and later during the Ice Age they spread to the Americas as well. Again in Australia, the authentic cultural history of Aborigines is traceable up to 40,000 years ago.

Compared to these relatively recent times, a skeleton of a female from Hedar in Ethiopia has been discovered which is 2.9 million years old. Now according to the Biblical chronology, Adam and Eve lived around six thousand years ago. One may look back in wonderment at the reported history of human beings, or Homo Sapiens as they are titled in scientific jargon.
alislam.org/library/books/christianity_facts_to_fiction/chapter_2.html#pgfId-1006090

My curasity; how my Christian friends reconcile both these concepts?

I think it is directly related with the issue under discussion.

Thanks

Dear Paarsurrey,

First of all, Happy New Year 2008.

Second, why do you think the Catholic believe that Jesus was made of clay? We don’t. Jesus is the word of God. Jesus was not created.

Third, the Catholic Church never claims that human life started 7.000 years ago. The bible never meant to be the book of history nor the book of science. It was the Jehovah Witnesses who made that “calculation” and derivation. Even Marthin Luther never claimed that either. You should ask the Jehovah Witnesses, and they are not Christian, though they claim to the the only true Christian.

Fourth, about the archeological proofs you mentioned, you should ask the JW to reconcile your case, since it is according to them that human life started about 7.000 years ago.

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

Dear Paarsurrey,
First of all, Happy New Year 2008.

Hi

I wish you and all my Catholic/non-Catholic frineds here a happy new year 2008.

why do you think the Catholic believe that Jesus was made of clay? We don’t. Jesus is the word of God. Jesus was not created.

No, I don’t think so.

I quoted from Quran and I repeat again:

[3:60] Surely, the case of Jesus with Allah is like the case of Adam. He created him out of dust, then he said to him, "Be’, and he was.
[3:61] This is the truth from thy Lord, so be thou not of those who doubt.
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?ch=3&verse=60

So, it is Adam who is created from “the clay” which is , I think, also mentioned in the OTBible.Jesus being Son of Adam, and all humans also in this sense could be termed as created from the clay, I think you won’t disagree.
The next similarity between Adam and Jesus is mentioned in the above verse, as I understand, that GodAllahYHWH said for creation of Adam the words “Be” and man started taking shape and was completed in millions/billions of years till the best among them was named Adam. So the creation of Adam started with the word “Be” a commandment of GodAllahYHWH, which as everyone undestands is a **natural phenomenon **set by GodAllahYHWH.
As Adam was created with the "Word ‘Be’ ‘’ likewise JesusYeshuaIssa’s conception to Mary was with the "Word ‘Be’ ‘’ from GodAllahYHWH.

This is what I understand, you or anyother Catholic don’t have to agree with me, you could differ with me if you please want to.

I think it is not difficult to undestand.

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

Adam, considered the first human, then logically he was created without sexual reproduction.

Hi

We Ahmadi peaceful Muslims don’t believe that Adam was the first man on earth, man’s creation was completed in millions/billions of years in many stages. Adam had father and mother as also our mothe Eve had her father and mother, there were several tribes of men. Adam, as we understand from Quran, must have been created with natural sexual reproduction system, as everybody else is, no denying.

We Muslims understand things from Quran and sciences and other revealed scriptures of the world, if not against Quran. I think this is to be undestood by our friends here. We believe in Moses and Jesus and Bible only because Quran has mentioned all these in it.

Thanks

Thanks

 

[CTA1967]

Hi

We Ahmadi peaceful Muslims don’t believe that Adam was the first man on earth, man’s creation was completed in millions/billions of years in many stages. Adam had father and mother as also our mothe Eve had her father and mother, there were several tribes of men. Adam, as we understand from Quran, must have been created with natural sexual reproduction system, as everybody else is, no denying.

We Muslims understand things from Quran and sciences and other revealed scriptures of the world, if not against Quran. I think this is to be undestood by our friends here. We believe in Moses and Jesus and Bible only because Quran has mentioned all these in it.

Thanks

Thanks

Um, even if your Adam and Eve were created naturally, how would you expalin how the first people on earth were created? Wouldn’t they be created without sexual reproduction (or else you would go on forever and and never find the first humans)? The people who were created without sexual reproduction and came before all other humans are who we believe to be Adam and Eve. Give them whatever name you like, the people are still the same. And who says we believe that the first humans came 7000 years ago? I’ve never heard any Catholic tell me that from their interpretation of the Bible.

 

[paarsurrey]

And who says we believe that the first humans came 7000 years ago? I’ve never heard any Catholic tell me that from their interpretation of the Bible.

Hi

Ok sir, I don’t impose anything on you. I might have heard from JWs who say that they are the only true Christians, while Catholics say they are not Christians. I wish you both could Unite in one United Christendom, through peaceful dialogue.

So, the Catholics don’t believe that humans are here for 7000 years only.

So what do the Catholics believe in this connection, any guess for years,please?

Thanks

 

[dolphinlove]

Hi

Ok sir, I don’t impose anything on you. I might have heard from JWs who say that they are the only true Christians, while Catholics say they are not Christians. I wish you both could Unite in one United Christendom, through peaceful dialogue.

So, the Catholics don’t believe that humans are here for 7000 years only.

So what do the Catholics believe in this connection, any guess for years,please?

Thanks

Im not even going to guess any timelines, its not the subject.
The subject here is, why was Jesus born without a biological father, which no muslim has yet successfully answered.
Happy new year btw.