To Protestants: HAPPY REFORMATION DAY

[Ag_not]

AG: Do I take from this that what you believe is that, a person, guided by the HOLY SPIRIT, in an honest effort to seek the truth, and IN THE ABSENSE OF IGNORANCE, FEAR, BAGGAGE, RELIGIOUS AGENDAS ETC ETC ETC WOULD in fact see things as you do?

**RA: **All things? No. Because I have my own issues, just like you. Also, there is invincible ignorance. You like that one?

RA

So HOW then, are people to discern the TRUTH under your system. Because it seems to me, what youre saying has way too many variables for a concensus to be reached. If thats the case, and we are all GENUINELY seeking the truth with open mind and heart and being led by the ONE HOLY SPIRIT, then the only conclusion I can come to is that the HOLY SPIRIT does in fact sanction numerious ways to reach the TRUTH accommodating various beliefs and practices. No?

 

[Richard_Abanes]

AG: etc etc etc.

RA: I truly fear that we could only get into this over a good spaghetti dinner and a glass of red wine. Get 3-5 of us and I’ll be there if you’re buying.

RA

 

[Ag_not]

AG: etc etc etc.

RA: I truly fear that we could only get into this over a good spaghetti dinner and a glass of red wine. Get 3-5 of us and I’ll be there if you’re buying.

RA

Cool My treat.

But right now I got to get to Mass.

I’ll light a candle for you

 

[Richard_Abanes]

AG: I’ll light a candle for you

**RA: **I won’t turn that down. Appreciated.

If we can get 3-5 peeps from the board, I’ll be there. And I’d need to get confirmation of that (I *promised *my wife these kinds of measures for safety after I did a book on militias, racists, white supremacists, and neo-Nazis about ten years ago.) I know silly, but well, you know gals.

I am not an enemy of RC, unlike some. I do have disagreements – duh. That’s why I left the RC church and why I am not RC now. But don’t put me in the category of RC-haters, who truth be told, hate me too. They seem to hate everyone, tbh.

RA

 

[Ag_not]

**RA: **All things? No. Because I have my own issues, just like you. Also, there is invincible ignorance. You like that one?RA

So you’re saying that DESPITE the HOLY SPIRIT, our own issues, invincible ignorance, etc WILL get in the way of the guideance of the HOLY SPIRIT.

Thereby leaving room for error. And these errors WILL cause you and I to disagree. Because you and I are educated, wonderful, warm, adorable creatures, we wont harm each other. But escalate our differences to a regional, national, and international level. Easy to see we could be going to war over our flawed interpretations of the One True Word of God, isnt it.

I think that’s an arguement for a Magesterium, don’t you.

I’m outa here - I gotta light you a candle at mass

 

[truthsilence]

Truth: I don’t think Luther would agree with your conclusions about Mary:

RA: I’m sorry, did I say he would? I also don’t think he’d agree with my conclusion about Jews. I also don’t think he would agree with my stand as an evangelical on communion. (He sort of pulled that one over a little bit from his RC background, too).

Gabriel of 12
You miss the point of discussion, we are not engaged in personal opinons of Luther and you, we are talking fundamental Christian belief’s. And your chrisitan belief’s conflict with the reformers period, this is how far you have regressed in your new christian theology from the apostolic Catholic church.

Gabriel of 12,

Thanks for addressing these posts perfectly. You beat me to it! Thanks Thanks.

Richard,

I’m sure you’ve thought of this already but perhaps you might reconsider what “The Pillar and Foundation of Truth” is. From the Bible, what is written about that? Yes! It says the Church. But which church? A body of 30,000+ denominations with thousands of “personal Holy Spirit led interpretations” or the One, Holy, Apostolic, Catholic Church?

Thank you for being gracious, open-minded, accepting, and tolerant of the RCC in the evangelical/fundamentalist world.

God bless,
Tami

P.S Happy All Souls Day!!!

 

[Richard_Abanes]

**Truth: **P.S Happy All Souls Day!!!

RA: And HAPPY All Souls Day to you to!

Truth: From the Bible, what is written about that? Yes! It says the Church. But which church?

RA: I see it boiling down to this again and again and again. I think we’ve hit on something, perhaps the crux of ALL our disagreements. Interesting. I’ve noted this before, but I think it’s worth mentioning again, and would be worthy of conversation over that spaghetti dinner and wine I’m gonna enjoy (in honor of Rome, Italy, of course): What is the nature of the Church that Jesus mentioned in Matthew?

RA

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Gab: Can you explain the four doctrines of Mary as a Roman Catholic believes them? Not how you view them, How Catholics believe them… Then I can expose your flawed Catholicism and false preaching you make to others about your misinformed catholicism.

RA: So, basically, you made an accusation against me without seeing anything in what I had said that was false?

R.A.

**My assessment of your views and comments about Mary from a Catholic position stands.

Are you asking me to remind you of your belief’s , when I have given you the advantage to state clearly what they are both catholic postition and your personal views if you like. From your response maybe you were guessing, and here is your oppurtunity to set the record straight. Then we can go by what you stated previously about Mary and compare.**

 

[Richard_Abanes]

GAB: Are you asking me to remind you of your belief’s, when I have given you the advantage to state clearly what they are both catholic position and your personal views if you like.

**RA: **Yes, remind me of the beliefs about Mary that I said I had learned as a Roman Catholic that are/were wrong. As far as I can see, I only noted what I believe about Mary now.

And I only alluded to what I had been taught about Mary as a Roman Catholic in my statement, “Sorry, Mary died just like everyone else.” But I explained this, as follows:

I said, “Mary died just like everyone else.” The last I checked we all do not die an get assumed into heaven with body and soul intact. So, no, it is not RCC teaches that Mary died just like all of us, which is why I am saying to you that she died “just like everyone else.” Her body saw corruption and she is waiting for the resurrection like everyone else who has died (Yesterday, 8:55 pm).

So, again, please do remind us all of my false beliefs about Mary that I said I learned as a RC and I quoted here on this board.

RA

 

[Richard_Abanes]

**AG: **But right now I got to get to Mass.

RA: I always preferred Saturday night Mass. I sang in the Folk Guitar group.

I still remember some of the songs and sing them to this day when I’m cleaning house or driving around town:
*
“Good lady poverty, Come be my briiiiiiide, forever you and me, walk side by siiiiiide, give me your wisdom, teach me your ways, show me the path you take, and walk with Christ each daaaayyyyy.”*

I liked that one.

R.A.

 

[Zooey]

Having just attended (today) the annual Aquinas-Luther Conference at Lenoir-Rhyne University, I too will continue to pray for the day that we all gather at the table together – preferably here on Earth but I will wait, if necessary, for the heavenly banquet.

FYI: :extrahappy::extrahappy:Today was :getholy:All Saints’ Day:getholy: at my United Methodist Church. Not Reformation Day; All Saints.:extrahappy::extrahappy:

 

[guanophore]

"GUAN:

Such a response would have to presuppose that Jesus is a liar, or a weakling. He promised to lead them into all truth, but then was unable to do so ,because He was weaker than their sinful nature.

Absolutely untrue. Guan, think about what you just said. Now, really, please, think about it. If I do NOT share your foundational view of the what the church is, then what I said is perfectly acceptable. Don’t take MY comments, and work them into YOUR frame of reference.

I am using a biblical frame of reference. Are we not in agreement that the Bible is the inerrant-inspired Word of God? How do you dispatch the promises of Christ, unless you lay a foundation that He did not mean what He said?

Now, clearly, if I DID hold your foundational notions of the church, and made the comment I made, then yes, you would be right in saying I was attributing an error to Jesus (and THAT is only if I also agreed with your interpretation of the “gates of hell shall not prevail against it”). But we do NOT understand “church” the same. We must listen to each other and not say things like “Such a response would have to presuppose that Jesus is a liar.” I mean, really. That doesn’t help.

Ok, then please explain what He really meant when He said He would build His church, that He would send HIs spirit to lead them into all Truth, and that He would remain with them till the end of the age.
"GUAN:

Teaching error is equivalent to passing through the gates of hell.

And here we even have yet ANOTHER disagreement about what this verse means. The division of biblical understanding/interpretation just gets deeper and deeper, which leads to more and more problems, disagreements, and fights. We are working from different frames of reference, my friend. Again, don’t take MY comments, and work them into YOUR frame of reference.

And what do you think it means? Do you disagree that teaching error is passing into the gates of hell? How can one escape hell if one fails to cling to the Truth?
"GUAN:

It sounds like you have some real problems with authority. This is not uncommon, especially in America, a country that was founded on rebellion against authority.

Again, very very unhelpful and insulting. I have no problems with authority. I adore cops, my dad, pastors, lawmakers, and most importantly, my wife.

Maybe it is just any Catholic authority?
"GUAN:

It is amazing to see how much hostility you have toward the Catholic Church.

You know what is actually hysterical, and I’m being serious, is how I actually don’t have any hostility at all against the RCC. And, in fact, I have been so gracious, open-minded, accepting, and tolerant of the RCC in the evangelical/fundamentalist world that I have been labeled everything from a traitor, to a Rome-lover, to compromiser, to hater of the Reformers, to…well, you get the idea. I guess its a class ic example of trying to walk the middle path (yes, that’s Buddhist).

Hmmm.

I look foward to meeting that Richard!
"GUAN:

If it is really “okay” with you for us to believe that Jesus is still head of the Catholic Church, why are you here on CAF?

I’ve explained this elsewhere on CAF – do a search.

oic.
"?:

In fact it’s statistically probable that he really doesn’t know the real teachings of the Church and what he learned was not taught correctly by heretics or well meaning confused Catholics.

Sigh. I don’t think so. Peeps keep saying this, but the truth is, I was a fairly good RC.

How did you end up being so misled?

 

[Richard_Abanes]

Please support - ra

 

[adstrinity]

**ADS: **We have St. Thomas’ witnessing Mary going up to Heaven.

**RA: **Oh my gosh, in The Passing of Mary, a fourth century apocryphal fraudulent false Gospel!!! Sigh. This book was condemned under the Decree of Gelasius (by a 6th century Italian churchman, but falsely attribute to Gelasius). No one knows who even wrote The Passing of Mary. And no, it wasn’t Joseph of Arimathea. Goodness, let’s just believe everything we read in all the Gnostic gospels, too.

Just to be clear to all reading, the gnostic gospels were not admitted into the Bible because the Catholic Church, by the Grace of God, knew they were flawed at the very least and heretical to the Catholic Church Jesus established at the very worst.

It is a common sense reaction to observe Mary’s Assumption/Dormition because the Catholic Church gives Her stamp of approval from God.

For more on the Feast:

newadvent.org/cathen/02006b.htm – Catholic

orthodoxwiki.org/Dormition – Orthodox

 

[guanophore]

AG: etc etc etc.

RA: I truly fear that we could only get into this over a good spaghetti dinner and a glass of red wine. Get 3-5 of us and I’ll be there if you’re buying.

RA

That is interesting…

I’ve had the priests point her out to me there too. And I know the verses. But the end conclusions are flawed by the RCC. So, we disagree.

Flawed according what standard?

Luther also said some fairly nasty things about Jews, and I don’t accept those things either. So what? You don’t go around lopping off the heads of Muslims or burning witches, either, which used to be rather popular among your spiritual ancestors.

Not anymore, anyways.

Do you think I believe that Luther or ANY of the Reformers were perfect? No, that’s a Pope-ish thing (and an RCC thing) where you have to agree with everything that comes down from on high (ex cathedra, Papal Bulls, councils, and all that, etc. etc. etc.), rather than allowing the Holy Spirit to lead and guide and read the Bible for yourself.

You seem to believe that reading the Bible in the light of understanding the mindset of those who wrote it somehow separates the Catholic reader from the HS. How is that?

**Truth: **P.S Happy All Souls Day!!!

RA: And HAPPY All Souls Day to you to!

Truth: From the Bible, what is written about that? Yes! It says the Church. But which church?

RA: I see it boiling down to this again and again and again. I think we’ve hit on something, perhaps the crux of ALL our disagreements. Interesting. I’ve noted this before, but I think it’s worth mentioning again, and would be worthy of conversation over that spaghetti dinner and wine I’m gonna enjoy (in honor of Rome, Italy, of course): What is the nature of the Church that Jesus mentioned in Matthew?

RA

Yes, I agree. That is why I brought that up about authority. I believe it does boil down to that.

I believe He wanted a visible church, and one with authority.

 

[narrowpath]

Luther started the Protestant reformation

St. Igantius of Loyola started a counter-reformation, and had many successes. :knight2: BUT…

…there are still many who believe lies about the Church.

LET’S START A NEW COUNTER REFORMATION!!!

npatrol: npatrol: npatrol:

 

[Ag_not]

LET’S START A NEW COUNTER REFORMATION!!!:

I’m in

Ok, what do you want me to do?

Make the coffee

Ok. Sure. No problem

 

[Hajnalcsillag]

Ta muchly, eucharisto! I would like to point out that only relics of the saints in the NT are what we need for Mary’s assumption. We have the bones of all the saints, but not Mary nor Jesus. We have St. Thomas’ witnessing Mary going up to Heaven. We have the common sense factor that God loved His Mother so much that He would bring Her to Him fully so Her body would not have the ignominy of decaying in the dirt. …This thread has gotten off topic. Back on topic: Why the Reformers hate Jesus. Discuss.

That makes a low blow look clean by comparison.

 

[Hajnalcsillag]

Just to be clear to all reading, the gnostic gospels were not admitted into the Bible because the Catholic Church, by the Grace of God, knew they were flawed at the very least and heretical to the Catholic Church Jesus established at the very worst.

It is a common sense reaction to observe Mary’s Assumption/Dormition because the Catholic Church gives Her stamp of approval from God.

For more on the Feast:

newadvent.org/cathen/02006b.htm – Catholic

orthodoxwiki.org/Dormition – Orthodox

Odd as it seems to point it out, I’m not big on the idea of falling over backwards to credit those who kept certain books out of the Bible.

I remember a few years back, I watched “Stigmata” with a friend of mine (I was still Catholic at the time). After it ended, he started asking me all sorts of stuff about the Gospel of Thomas; I handed him my Bible and pulled up an online copy of the Gospel of Thomas and asked him to do a quick comparison between the five of them.

With no actual religious training, and without having set foot in a church of any kind for a number of years, his Baptist mind was able to tell exactly what was wrong with the Gospel of Thomas. And this is one that scholars take more seriously than any of the other later “Gospels”.

 

[Hajnalcsillag]

Honest question, no sarcasm, Although an acknowledged sinner, you ARE correct in your faith? yes? So given that the Holy Spirit cannot mislead and contradict Itself, YOU are correct in your beliefs, Yes? You are not misled, misguided, or misinformed in any way in matters of your faith and your salvation? Correct?
So from that - am I to conclude that I MUST believe what YOU believe. **Surely yes, because you are being guided by the Holy Spirit and He cannot tell you one thing and me another. **And if He has revealed to you that the Eucharist is not necessary for eternal life, that Mary has not been assumed into heaven or conceived without original sin, if He has revealed to YOU that auricular confession is not necessary and Rome is NOT the church of God, then that MUST be correct, yes?
So when I say Im being led by the Holy spirit to the Catholic Church, it is NOt the Holy Spirit that is doing this. It is another spirit at work? And its another spirit that is misleading all those thousands of churches? In fact, unless we fall into line with YOUR view of salvation, we are all being misled by other spirits?

In matters of the basic essence of Christian faith, I don’t see any real deviation between denominations. Being, say, Southern Baptist doesn’t mean that you deny the Trinity. Being Presbyterian doesn’t mean that you deny the divinity and also humanity of Jesus. Being Calvinist doesn’t mean that you deny the Resurrection.

Most of the stuff that divides are total non-issues, or at least extremely unimportant ones. If baptism is necessary for salvation, why did Jesus tell the unbaptized criminal hanging next to Him that that day, they would be together in paradise? Will there be a 100-question exam that must be taken to gain admission into Heaven? Would it cover such things as whether or not angels have blue eyes or brown ones, or whether a gnat (the smallest ceremonially unclean animal) falling into holy water would purify the gnat or defile the water?

The Spirit leads men and women in all different directions. It doesn’t mean that the Spirit is in error or instructing contradictions.