To Protestants: HAPPY REFORMATION DAY

[MarcoPolo]

**Marco: **Aren’t you the author of The Truth Behind the Da Vinci Code? I really enjoyed that book!

RA: Yes. Even though I am an evangelical, that was a really unfair and inaccurate hit-piece (by Dan Brown) on the RCC and all of Christianity in general. I’m glad my book was helpful.

RA

It’s nice to talk to you, even though this thread seems derailed. I would guess your calling is ecumenism rather than what’s going on in this thread. You’re much better at the former! God bless you.

 

[ScottishColleen]

I’m sorry to say, but I find the Birth Control jabs not only insulting, but inaccurate. MOST Catholics I know use birth control…but I know MANY, MANY Protestants and Anabaptists that hold a firm conviction against birth control.

And I would never wish for someone to use birth control just so there would be “less of them”. How horrid that is, for ALL life is a blessing from God.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Gabriel12, I am interested in learning more about the symbolism of that particular apparition. What can you tell me?

Yeah, the book I am going to recommend to you does not have the Nihil Obstat, or the Imprimatur. The Aztec Virgin the secret mystical tradition of Our Lady of Guadalupe, written by John Mini,by trans-Hyperborean institute of Science publishing.

This book goes into great detail of the Tillma Apparition and its symbolic meanings to them. It makes a good factual and scientific read of the divine apparition, the many different scientist that have investigated the vision resting on the tillman the last 500 years, are still unable to explain its source or composition let alone the colors used are not reproducable, and foreign to mankind, fascinating fact findings that the scientific world cannot solve today, let alone repeat the art work.

Without changing the topic here, if you would like more on this feel free to PM me.

Peace

 

[Peter_J]

I’m sorry to say, but I find the Birth Control jabs not only insulting, but inaccurate. MOST Catholics I know use birth control…but I know MANY, MANY Protestants and Anabaptists that hold a firm conviction against birth control.

And I would never wish for someone to use birth control just so there would be “less of them”. How horrid that is, for ALL life is a blessing from God.

I’m not sure what the other jabs are that your referring to, but I have to admit that I found this one to be down-right creepy:

Yeah, the more Protestants use birth control, the less there’ll be of them!

Cheers!

 

[MarcoPolo]

So in both cases you say that there is absolutely NO evidence in the Bible? Don’t you think you might be exaggerating a little?

What about when Mary is called “full of grace”?

What about the Book of Revelation portraying Mary in Heaven?

Can those really be called ZERO evidence for the 2 respective dogmas?

Much is also revealed in the typology of Mary as Eve, the Ark of the Covenant, and the figure of the spotless Church. All in Scripture. All bearing unmistakable parallels to Mary, and understood as such by the Church for centuries, since not all of divine revelation is exhausted in Scripture.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

First, I do NOT mean to insult Mary in any way. I view her with the respect, admiration, and devotion that I find appropriate per her role as the *theotokos *-- God-bearer. But no more.

Gabriel of 12:
RA, so I am to understand then that you do not follow the reformers belief? because what you stated above directly conflicts with their belief’s , yet you celebrate the reformers? I believe I as a Roman Catholic have more in common with the fathers of the reformers than your Evangelical theology ever will.

Second, you must remember I am NOT RC. I am an evangelical who sees her as blessed above all women, as scripture says. But I also accept what she herself stated in her beautiful magnificant – i.e., that she, like all of us was in need of a SAVIOR: “My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour” (Luke 1:46-47).

Gabriel of 12;
It was the angel Gabriel who recognized who called her name “FULL OF GRACE” not man. What part of “FULL OF GRACE” you dont have a biblical understanding of? Mary is the only creature ever created to be given such a name by a divine being named Gabriel.

You need a savior when you are a sinner. And Mary, was a sinner, like all of us. That is my view from scripture. And I say this as an ex-Catholic, so i know the difference.

Gabriel of 12
Oh, I remember, “this is my view from scripture”? So your view is infallible? You determine what scripture dictates? Tell me does your view of scripture state where and when Mary sinned in all of scripture? Apparently you never were taught the truth about Mary, someone else has infected you with bad theology about Mary. Do you even know what the Immaculate conception teaching is about? You confessed to be an x catholic but by what you state, you never were taught the truth about Catholicism. To publicly state Mary was a sinner without scriptural proof makes for a very bold misinformed statement of you, coming from a late century Christian theology. Have you ever considered what the early church fathers believed? You will find you are in direct conflict with first 1500 years of Christianity again, but then again freedom to view scripture the way RA wants to view scripture need not concern you.

Mary was *never *given a special place of honor in scripture, even by Jesus. And the Bible makes it fairly clear that Jesus had half-brothers and sisters (and for the record, there is NOTHING ultra-uber-special-holy about not having sex). Moreover, obviously, there is not even a HINT of Mary’s bodily assumption.

Gabriel of 12
Well well, Lets see, are you sure you have read all the prophecies of Mary, indicating her Virginity, God promising to put enmity between sin (satan) and her. Read Gen. 3:15, when God speaks to the serpent forwarning the evil one he will not taint this woman and her seed with sin. I know this post is not about Mary, so I will be brief and not list all the scriptures that foretold of Mary, and the Gospels that confirm it. Secondly, if you have bought into this ridiculous heresy about Jesus having half brothers and sisters, you as an Evangelical, have a lot to learn yet. I was mistaken I thought you were better informed of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradtional teachings from Jesus and the apostles, forgive me.

**Do yourself a favor and pick up a Catechism of the Catholic church, and see what Catholics have believed for 2000 years, not man made up, misinformed theologies of anti- Catholicism. I am sure after you read up on the 4 doctrines of Mary, you will leave with an informed understanding of these doctrines. Then maybe you will not sound so misinformed on these boards about our blessed Mother.

Peace be with you**

 

[Richard_Abanes]

Gabriel,

I was raised Roman Catholic. Served as an altar boy. Attended RC grade school and high school. Was confirmed. My Aunt was a nun for I don’t how many years. Please, I was surrounded by Mary my whole life. I know about Mary. Please stop taking that condescending attitude. I hung with the best of nuns, priests, and fellow Catholics for many years. Mkay.

---

Peter,

You said: “The RCC doesn’t claim that Mary didn’t die.” Please, read again, I said, “Mary died just like everyone else.” The last I checked we all do not die an get assumed into heaven with body and soul intact. So, no, it is not RCC teaches that Mary died just like all of us, which is why I am saying to you that she died “just like everyone else.” Her body saw corruption and she is waiting for the resurrection like everyone else who has died.

RA

 

[AshleyBelle]

Gabriel,

I was raised Roman Catholic. Served as an altar boy. Attended RC grade school and high school. Was confirmed. My Aunt was a nun for I don’t how many years. Please, I was surrounded by Mary my whole life. I know about Mary. Please stop taking that condescending attitude. I hung with the best of nuns, priests, and fellow Catholics for many years. Mkay.

---

Peter,

You said: “The RCC doesn’t claim that Mary didn’t die.” Please, read again, I said, “Mary died just like everyone else.” The last I checked we all do not die an get assumed into heaven with body and soul intact. So, no, it is not RCC teaches that Mary died just like all of us, which is why I am saying to you that she died “just like everyone else.” Her body saw corruption and she is waiting for the resurrection like everyone else who has died.

RA

I haven't really been following this particular thread, but I did want to say something about this post:)

The Church doesn’t know if Mary died or not…that isn’t something we can know for sure. But what we DO know through sacred tradition is that she was assumed bodily into heaven and re-united with her Son
If you think everyone must die before entering heaven, what do you say of Elijah?

 

[Hajnalcsillag]

So in both cases you say that there is absolutely NO evidence in the Bible? Don’t you think you might be exaggerating a little?

What about when Mary is called “full of grace”?

I posted this a couple weeks ago in another thread on Mary, but here it is. I went through every major English translation of the Bible, and here they are. This is Luke 1:28, which is the angel’s greeting to Mary.

Today’s New International Version
The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

New International Version - UK
The angel went to her and said, Greetings, you who are highly favoured! The Lord is with you.

Worldwide English
The angel went into the house and said to her, `Be happy! God has blessed you more than other women. The Lord is with you!’

Wycliffe New Testament
And the angel entered to her, and said, Hail, full of grace; the Lord is with thee; blessed be thou among women.

New International Reader’s Version
The angel greeted her and said, “The Lord has given you special favor. He is with you.”

Holman Christian Standard Bible
And [the angel] came to her and said, “Rejoice, favored woman! The Lord is with you.”

Darby Translation
And the angel came in to her, and said, Hail, [thou] favoured one! the Lord [is] with thee: [blessed art thou amongst women].

Young’s Literal Translation
And the messenger having come in unto her, said, `Hail, favoured one, the Lord [is] with thee; blessed [art] thou among women;’

American Standard Version
And he came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee.

21st Century King James Version
And the angel came in unto her and said, “Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women.”

New Century Version
The angel came to her and said, “Greetings! The Lord has blessed you and is with you.”

New King James Version
And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”

Contemporary English Version
The angel greeted Mary and said, “You are truly blessed! The Lord is with you.”

English Standard Version
And he came to her and said, “Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!”

King James Version
And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

New Living Translation
Gabriel appeared to her and said, “Greetings, favored woman! The Lord is with you!"

The Message
Upon entering, Gabriel greeted her:

Good morning!
You’re beautiful with God’s beauty,
Beautiful inside and out!
God be with you.

New American Standard Bible
And coming in, he said to her, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.”

New International Version
The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

 

[Hajnalcsillag]

I haven’t really been following this particular thread, but I did want to say something about this post

The Church doesn’t know if Mary died or not…that isn’t something we can know for sure. But what we DO know through sacred tradition is that she was assumed bodily into heaven and re-united with her Son

If you think everyone must die before entering heaven, what do you say of Elijah?

Elijah’s ascension is specifically mentioned in 2 Kings.

“As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.”

Enoch’s ascension is similar in Genesis.

“Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.”

But there’s not one for anyone else. Since Mary’s ascension isn’t specifically mentioned, why can’t we just say that anyone else ascended as well? Luke isn’t mentioned as having died, so surely he must have ascended. Paul’s execution isn’t mentioned, so surely he ascended as well.

 

[eucharisteo]

There are many traditions that the Jews hold to but aren’t mentioned in scripture. There are many traditions that all Christians hold to but aren’t in scriputure. It took me almost a lifetime to finally get this. But Sacred Tradition is as good as scripture in the Church. All Christians believed that Mary was assumed into heave until the reformation took hold to lead people astray to man made traditions we see in non-Catholic Christian faiths.

 

[adstrinity]

We have the bones of St. Luke and St. Paul. None of Mary. Those men weren’t assumed, She was. And, let me post as a reminder, just because Richard grew up Catholic doesn’t mean he really knows what the Church teaches.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Gabriel,

I was raised Roman Catholic. Served as an altar boy. Attended RC grade school and high school. Was confirmed. My Aunt was a nun for I don’t how many years. Please, I was surrounded by Mary my whole life. I know about Mary. Please stop taking that condescending attitude. I hung with the best of nuns, priests, and fellow Catholics for many years. Mkay.

**Gabriel of 12:
Forgive me if you take my comments as condescending, I thought I was being truthful to you.
Personal I have heard many a x catholic repeat what you stated about your past catholicism, and when questioned by an informed Catholic, the x catholic always has or had a misinformed Catholic faith, and left to early to be infected by the world’s view of 2000 year old Christianity.
I too have 3 priest’s in my family one cloistured nun and one Franciscan nun, and none of these family members of mine believe the way as you describe about our Blessed Mother, not to mention the CCC. Again your personal catholic view of Mary is not Catholic teaching. For starters, I find Mary in the beginning of the bible, in the middle of the bible, throughout the Prophets and Prophetic Psalms, in the New testament including the end of the bible in Revelations. How is that you; an x catholic do not know this? Besides I did not know this post was about Mary. The point is; forgive me for repeating, you do not follow the reformers Christian belief’s you celebrate, you follow your own.

Peace be with you**

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Elijah’s ascension is specifically mentioned in 2 Kings.

“As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.”

Enoch’s ascension is similar in Genesis.

“Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.”

**So the bible does not limit God’s power to take a life or assume a life into the heavens, why do you limit God’s power and love for Mary?

To begin to grasp an understanding of Mary’s assumption, one should have an understanding of Royalty in the line of King David. How does the King of Kings and Lord of Lords rule as King and Lord, and how the Mother of the King was always on the Kings right hand side, never the bride of the King. Secondly God has always made his divine plan a mystery to the evil one, by her soft silence in scripture, but revealed to the Royal family subjects to the King of Kings and Lord of Lords; the other thing to consider is that Mary and the first Christians went underground from persecution by Romans and Jews. What makes you think, her most trusted subjects are going to expose her to such persecutions, it was by the divine hand of God that Mary was protected, even at the completion of her earthly life.

Both Moses and Elijah bore witness to the Word of God, Mary Bore the Word of God in her womb. There is a difference in the pronouncement of salvation and the Personal act to salvation, that Mary gave us her Son Jesus for the remission of sins. Now any Mother can take this to a higher level than any man could understand. Mary mediated salvation to mankind in her “yes” to God. No other creature in heaven or on earth can compare to the “blessed Virgin Mary”.

P.S, Paul, Luke, and all the other saints are alive and in heaven in the communion of Saints.What bible states differently?**

 

[truthsilence]

Richard,

I don’t think Luther would agree with your conclusions about Mary:

“Christ…was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him… “brothers” really means “cousins” here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers”. (Sermons on John, chapters 1-4, 1537-39).

“He, Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary’s virginal womb…This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that”. (Ibid.)

“It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin” (Sermon: “On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God,” 1527).

“She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin—something exceedingly great. For God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil”. (Personal {“Little”} Prayer Book, 1522).

More here:

chnetwork.org/journals/mary/mary_5.htm

P.S. when you say Mkay, it makes you sound to be about twelve, and is definitely condescending, in tone. Just an observation Peace.

 

[Peter_J]

Peter,

You said: “The RCC doesn’t claim that Mary didn’t die.” Please, read again, I said, “Mary died just like everyone else.” The last I checked we all do not die an get assumed into heaven with body and soul intact. So, no, it is not RCC teaches that Mary died just like all of us, which is why I am saying to you that she died “just like everyone else.” Her body saw corruption and she is waiting for the resurrection like everyone else who has died.

RA

I was going to say something here about Elijah and Enoch, but someone has beaten me to it.

 

[Peter_J]

Elijah’s ascension is specifically mentioned in 2 Kings.

“As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.”

Enoch’s ascension is similar in Genesis.

“Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.”

But there’s not one for anyone else. Since Mary’s ascension isn’t specifically mentioned, why can’t we just say that anyone else ascended as well? Luke isn’t mentioned as having died, so surely he must have ascended. Paul’s execution isn’t mentioned, so surely he ascended as well.

Hajnalcsillag, I don’t think that any well-respected Catholic theologian would say “The bible doesn’t mention Mary dying, so that proves her assumption.”

I mean, how silly do you think we are? freesmileys.org/smileys/whacky109.gif (Rhetorical question. )

 

[Peter_J]

“It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin” (Sermon: “On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God,” 1527).

Interesting! So Thomas Aquinas didn’t agree with the Immaculate Conception, but Martin Luther did.

 

[Richard_Abanes]

**EUCH: **But Sacred Tradition is as good as scripture in the Church.

RA: And that is the rub, I think. One can use “Sacred Tradition” say anything. And indeed, that is precisely how it has been used in the past to control people, harm people, and taint God’s holy name and ways. Here is is our main, foundational conflict, I think.

**EUCH: **All Christians believed that Mary was assumed into heaven until the reformation took hold to lead people astray

RA: ALL Christians? ALL Christians? From her ascension (c. pre-100-ish, I am assuming) onward to 1500? Okay. Please begin documenting that for me. Starting the disciples who, I assume, you would agree, knew Mary. I am indeed interested.

ADS: We have the bones of St. Luke and St. Paul. None of Mary. Those men weren’t assumed, She was.

**RA: **You want to start making a lits of the Bible people we don’t have the bones for? If so, let’s start, and then just assume they were all assuemd into heaven too. Thta’s not a good reason, IMHO, my friend.

**Ashley: **what do you say of Elijah?

RA: Hi Ash. First, I never said, “everyone must die before entering heaven.” I said we have nothing in the Bible that tells us otherwise about Mary.

Second, the Bible actually mentions Elijah. The Bible mentions Enoch. It says nothing about Mary. (Oh, and something kind of bizarre happened with the body of Moses, too, but we’re not exactly told what).

Third, I am going to assume with Mary what I assume with anyone else – unless told otherwise by God. And God hasn’t said anything about Mary being ascended. So, there you go.

Gab: I have heard many a x catholic repeat what you stated about your past catholicism, and when questioned by an informed Catholic, the x catholic always has or had a misinformed Catholic faith . . . Again your personal catholic view of Mary is not Catholic teaching.

**RA: **Exactly which view/concept of Mary, according to my RC experiences and what i was taught as a RC, are you saying is flawed? Perhaps we are talking past each other here.

Or, perhaps I didn’t make myself clear on my RC understanding as an RC and as I practiced devotion to Mary myself, as I saw it being practiced by my church, fellow RCs, family, friends, priests and nuns. That’s a lot of uniformed Catholics, so, please, what are you talking about precisely.

GAB: I find Mary in the beginning of the bible, in the middle of the bible, throughout the Prophets and Prophetic Psalms, in the New testament including the end of the bible in Revelations.

RA: I know. I’m sure you do. I’ve had the priests point her out to me there too. And I know the verses. But the end conclusions are flawed by the RCC. So, we disagree.

GAB: How is that you; an x catholic do not know this?

**RA: **See above. You are assuming a lot. Perhaps that’s the weakness of this kind of forum.

**GAB: **you do not follow the reformers Christian belief’s you celebrate, you follow your own.

RA: Luther also said some fairly nasty things about Jews, and I don’t accept those things either. So what? You don’t go around lopping off the heads of Muslims or burning witches, either, which used to be rather popular among your spiritual ancestors.

Truth: I don’t think Luther would agree with your conclusions about Mary:

RA: I’m sorry, did I say he would? I also don’t think he’d agree with my conclusion about Jews. I also don’t think he would agree with my stand as an evangelical on communion. (He sort of pulled that one over a little bit from his RC background, too).

Do you think I believe that Luther or ANY of the Reformers were perfect? No, that’s a Pope-ish thing (and an RCC thing) where you have to agree with everything that comes down from on high (ex cathedra, Papal Bulls, councils, and all that, etc. etc. etc.), rather than allowing the Holy Spirit to lead and guide and read the Bible for yourself.

Look, I believe Mary was AWESOME, truly, awesome. And I’ve said this before. She is honored, blessed, and was full of grace.

R.A.

 

[guanophore]

"Richard Abanes:

Hopefully, someday soon, the RCC will begin agreeing with more of the Bible, and so bring us both closer.
R.A.

I’m sorry, and what part of the Bible does the Catholic Church not agree with?

That would be Richard’s interpretation. Didn’t you know his is the onlycorrect one?

Silly you, did you think that reading the Bible from the perpective of those who wrote it would make you understand it better than Richard, who is clearly celebrating his separation from that perspective? Honestly, you make it sound like the Bible is a Catholic book!

So, you want 1.1 billion people to all change their theology to agree with your private and recent interpretation of scripture? You have just made yourself pope of your own church.

[SIGN]ALL HAIL TO POPE ABANES![/SIGN]