To Protestants: HAPPY REFORMATION DAY

[guanophore]

One topic of the deformation is why did the Deformers hate Jesus? And, do we believe, though we can’t really have proof, that the Deformers are in hell right now? Should I say prayers for the Reformers tonight when I go to the Mozart Requium Mass?

I do not believe that they did. I believe that the Church they looked at in Europe at the time was so corrupt that they did not recognize Jesus anymore. I think that there are many very passionate disciples of Christ during the Reformation and now.

We are not to judge the state of anyone’s soul, but we can know them by their fruits. We don’t know if they repented on their deathbed or not. I think it is wise to pray “lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need of Thy mercy.” If the ones most in need of His mercy rejected it, then I believe the prayer will benefit someone else. Perhaps even those misled by them?

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Harry Potter and the Bible: The Menace Behind the Magick .

I remember reading that book, and thinking that the author didn’t actually read the Harry Potter books. But this isn’t the thread to go into that…

 

[adstrinity]

I have copied your statement and, since it is a matter of pubic record, I will be using it in print at some point to show the extreme views that can be taken by Roman Catholics who express ungodly animosity for non-Roma Catholics. :tiphat:

Of course you will. I bet you will not use it in context, however, nor will you show how you didn’t comment and try to say how I am wrong, but, merely said things, without proof or explination.

Again, I don’t know why you are letting this bother you. This is NOT good for your relationship with God. If this bothers you, ignore it. God knows that the Deformers are dead and they don’t care about any of this.

Also, note. I’m saying this about the Reformers, not any present-day Protestant. WHY does this bother you?

Ah well, I’m not going to get a response from you.

 

[adstrinity]

I remember reading that book, and thinking that the author didn’t actually read the Harry Potter books. But this isn’t the thread to go into that…

Was it against the Harry Potter series?

 

[guanophore]

As I posted elsewhere:
I am here to talk. Listen to how others express themselves – and enjoy seeing how people think and express why they believe what they believe. I’m a professional religion journalist – I like doing research, reading, talking, probing, investigating, learning.

This is, as I see it, fellowship with brothers and sisters in Christ. It’s too bad you seem to think that the Internet is Northern Ireland.

RA

No, it is just that CAF is not intended for “fellowship”. If you would like to enjoy the company of others who also want to criticize the Catholic faith, I am sure there are plenty of places to do that.

RA: Ain’t gonna ever happen with comments like this: “One topic of the deformation is why did the Deformers hate Jesus” That’s pure hate-filled, confrontational, mean-spirited, nastiness that is begging for a fight. (ADStrinity needs to go to confession.)

RA

I agree, and I just posted my thoughts on that point. However, Jesus does identify Himself 100% with His Holy Bride, the Church, and ads is right that those who attack the Church are attacking Him.

I don’t think pumping more hostility will heal the wounds. As a cradle Catholic that spent the better part of 20 years sojourning in Protestant communities, I know that there are many, many children of the Reformers who love Jesus,and are very committed to their faith.

All I know of the Reformers is what I have read, and from that, they all seemed to be very passionate about their faith. Only God can judge the heart.

 

[adstrinity]

I do not believe that they did. I believe that the Church they looked at in Europe at the time was so corrupt that they did not recognize Jesus anymore. I think that there are many very passionate disciples of Christ during the Reformation and now.

We are not to judge the state of anyone’s soul, but we can know them by their fruits. We don’t know if they repented on their deathbed or not. I think it is wise to pray “lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need of Thy mercy.” If the ones most in need of His mercy rejected it, then I believe the prayer will benefit someone else. Perhaps even those misled by them?

Thank you for this post, guanophore. I think that is an appropriate prayer. Thank you.

 

[Peter_J]

RA,

I was about to say (although, after reading post #173, I realize that you’ve kinda beaten me to the punch) that the posts you’re complaining about are really more an offense against us Catholics than they are against Protestants. Why? Because it is us Catholics who are being made to look like hate-mongers. Seriously. (By a similar token, I think you could say that CARM is more an offense against Protestants than it is against Catholics.)

 

[JonNC]

I agree, and I just posted my thoughts on that point. However, Jesus does identify Himself 100% with His Holy Bride, the Church, and ads is right that those who attack the Church are attacking Him.

I don’t think pumping more hostility will heal the wounds. As a cradle Catholic that spent the better part of 20 years sojourning in Protestant communities, I know that there are many, many children of the Reformers who love Jesus,and are very committed to their faith.

All I know of the Reformers is what I have read, and from that, they all seemed to be very passionate about their faith. Only God can judge the heart.

Best post on the thread. Hostility goes both ways, and when we attack each other, we attack the Holy Spirit within each of us.

Jon

 

[Richard_Abanes]

**Pixie: **Harry Potter.

RA: If you’d like a concise overview of my Harry Potter thoughts, go to the ABOUT ME page, and scroll down to Harry Potter.

 

[Peter_J]

I don’t think pumping more hostility will heal the wounds.

Amen.

 

[Richard_Abanes]

Peter: Because it is us Catholics who are being made to look like hate-mongers.

**RA: **I understand and have put ADS in an apporpriate category of posters on this board, just as certain evangelicals/Fundamentalists in their attack modes should be similarly categorized. No worries.

R.A.

 

[JonNC]

Peter: Because it is us Catholics who are being made to look like hate-mongers.

**RA: **I understand and have put ADS in an apporpriate category of posters on this board, just as certain evangelicals/Fundamentalists in their attack modes should be similarly categorized. No worries.

R.A.

And yet you say this,

Originally Posted by Richard Abanes :
I have copied your statement and, since it is a matter of pubic record, I will be using it in print at some point to show the extreme views that can be taken by Roman Catholics who express ungodly animosity for non-Roma Catholics.

If you believe that adstrinity is not the typical Catholic poster, why not just leave her posts alone? This sounds like you want to paint with the broad brush PeterJ is concerned about.

adstrinity, you’d said some pretty tough things, but I’d like to take you up on your offer here:

Richard, I say something that offends you and instead of trying to find out where I’m coming from, you decide to insult me and stop speaking to me?]

Jon

 

[Peter_J]

^^ I think it really depends on how the quotes are used.

Like if somebody said “Catholics say hateful things, unlike Protestants”, then I think it would be fair for a Catholic to say “Well what about this … isn’t it hateful?” and then quote something posted by a Protestant on CARM.

P.S. That didn’t come out quite right – I don’t mean to imply that everthing on CARM is hateful.

 

[tGette]

**Love: **I pray that your coming here to CAF will help you learn what the Catholic Church truly teaches, as opposed to the misconceptions you seem to now hold.

RA: Interesting.

Please tell me what apparent false notions I have of the RCC that would indicate I was “poorly catechized.”

Also bear in mind that I am a professional religion journalist recognized in the area of religion research. So, basically, not that I mind, but your remark is tantamount to saying to me – if I were a plumber – that I have poorly taught with regard to a certain system of home piping systems.

So, again, I ask that you enumerate EXACTLY, point by point, what I have stated here at CAF that indicates I was poorly catechized. Thank you. (Such point, of course, must have nothing to do with my studies post-leaving the RCC).

I am most interested to know, in fact, how you’re even going to do this, since you weren’t there when I was catechized and I’ve never listed everything I learned through my catechism classes.

R.A.

I am kind of butting into this thread.

First, I find it ironic that this thread celebrates the fact that Christianity is divided because that is what the Reformation did. I understand that from your perspective you are celebrating “returning to the true Gospel message”, but I find this ironic because the Reformation has spawned a virtually boundless number of “true Gospel messages”.

So. . .again. . .how is the Reformation a cause for celebration? Are you telling us that you are happy that Christianity is so splintered?

In response to what you said about being a writer/journalist. Does this then make you the “Pope” in a sense. Are you telling us that you have infallibly figured out everything the Bible is telling us? Not that this is what is believed about the Pope, but this statement of yours sounds like you are telling us that you, a man 2000 years removed from Christ, has “finally figured it out”.

I hope I am not sounding uncharitable, I am just trying to make a point, so please do not take it the wrong way. (As a writer, you might not appreciate my poor use of punctuation…I was always bad with that…sorry! I always screw up the placement of commas and semi-colons )

Also, on this remark you made about being recognized in your field of religious studies, etc., we, as Catholics, can say the same thing about the Vicar of Christ, the Pope. It is safe to say his credentials and education are a little better than yours. The Pope is not blind to other religions either.

So, in a sense (and based on your words), we can also say:
“The Pope is a professional religion journalist recognized in the area of religious research.”

As you say, we cannot claim that you were poorly catechized, nor can we claim that you are ignorant of other religions, per your plumber analogy. I can make your analogy moot though because I can say that a mechanic knows how to work on cars, but if he is a Chevrolet mechanic that does not necessarily make him qualified to work on Ford vehicles because knowing about firing order, the placement of the distributor, how the manifolds are lined up, etc are different among makes of vehicles.

 

[po18guy]

AI have copied your statement and, since it is a matter of pubic record, I will be using it in print at some point to show the extreme views that can be taken by Roman Catholics who express ungodly animosity for non-Roma Catholics.
I had to smile. I am from just outside Chicago. Yes, I see that the kind of Roman Catholicism I grew up with is still alive and well back home. You confirmed so much for me. I thank you. It’s wonderful to be free.

So, you finally got what you came for? This does not sound like fellowship, it sounds suspiciously like you came here for ammunition.

I wish you all the best, and pray for you to be healed by the loving physician of all who seek him – King Jesus.

And, may you keep seeking him wherever you go. One day it will be revealed to you where he has been waiting for you.

Next time you visit, I suggest using questions rather than confrontation. You’ll find a lot more “fellowship”.

May Christ’s peace be with you.

 

[adstrinity]

adstrinity, you’d said some pretty tough things, but I’d like to take you up on your offer here:

Jon

Thank you sir.

I thought that the, “Why do the Reformers hate Jesus,” was pretty innocuous and a good way to get the thread back on topic from a Catholic point of view. I found it more commical than offensive, and, considering I had only 512 characters permited to me from using my phone, I thought I summed up the post rather nicely.

Then Richard, who had said some pretty offensive things about the Catholic Church, said that he thought, IN HIS **HUMBLE **OPINION, I should apologize.

I let that slide.

Then he got more assertive and asked me if I was going to apologize for that.

That fed my ego.

Then, he asked me one more time, for the second time not humbling himself to his opinion, if I would apologize.

I thought I could let it go, as it was pretty much dead, but, something inside me was tempting me to ask. I admit, it may have been phrased better, but, JonNC, it is a very legitimate question: Why did the Reformers hate Jesus? While I cannot say I am a fan of Martin Luther, nor am I sympathetic towards him (mostly because I haven’t fully read anything about him or his time period, so, basically, I am ignorant of him and only know second hand things about him), he at the very least wanted to clean up the Catholic Church and kept two of the Sacraments (or at least, thought he did…being a Catholic, you know I cannot acknowledge them as legitimate). He was a very scrupulous man (I have been told he spent up to 6 hours in confession) and that is a shame that he didn’t believe in God’s grace, so, he did what his mind made logical sense to him…he said that the Catholic Church didn’t believe in Grace, and it is by Grace alone that we are saved. (Do I have this correct…that he denied the Catholic Church believed in Grace?)

This was so horrible. BUT, I acknowledge that it wasn’t all his fault. He was persuaded by secular peoples, AFTER he died, what he had started took on a new life of it’s own (as now that he was dead, people needed to start asking his followers what to do…and that’s kinda when things got hazy), and anybody who spends up to 6 hours in Confession may have other issues. That and I’m not fond of him taking a nun away from her vocation.

Anyway, despite all this, I would like to say, that I really enjoy you and TriuneUnity (wherever he may be) because you have shown me what Luther intended in his religion. You don’t believe the Catholic Church has it right, but, you do not come on here and assult us and assure us of what we believe. You also point out that sola scriptura means that everything needed for faith is in the Bible, not that the Bible is all you need. You acknowledge Tradition is important, BUT, not needed. ‘Yes Mary MIGHT be in Heaven body and soul, but, this doesn’t matter for my salvation.’

Since Martin Luther is credited with beginning the Reformation, he has the honour of having the longest section of this post.

After Martin Luther was successful, a many offenses to the Church came after him. Some Retard King in England started a sect where the only requirement was divorce on demand (and who knew that that church would later have problems?), Calvin gave birth to Congregationalism as he was predestined, Zwingli, I’m not even sure what he did, but, I know it can’t be good, and the Presbyterians, though I am impressed they get a shot - out in the Marvel Comicbook Universe, decided to kill Mary Queen of Scots, so, that was bad (and yes, I am aware of Guy Fawkes…just not as cool).

Anyway, I noticed that insulting the Reformers was REALLY getting to Richard. Was it Catholicly Jesus-like of me to persue this? No. Was I wrong in how I explained myself? No. I suppose I could have taken the high road and let it go, as Jesus was not proud but let Himself be insulted, but, there was just something about it that would not let me let it go…it was ego that would not let it go.

I used the same arguments that Protestants have made (we’re insulting X, not you…, if you could only see the truth…, these people are dead…) to show some how what they say IS offensive. I still don’t know why Hynauljasag and Richard took these things so personally, though. These men ARE dead, they don’t care, and if they cared about Jesus, they wouldn’t have gone with their own egos and bashed the Catholic Church…and they did bash the Catholic Church. I’m not saying anything against today’s modern day Protestants, but, just the Reformers. I thought this appropriate considering the thread.

I must confess, I do find it an upside down set of priorities where Protestants assert, “Mary’s dead. Lalalalala Mary’s a sinner. Lalalala. Mary is burried in the dirt. Lalalala. Mary was a vessel and not a mother. Lalalala,” clinging to their own pre-dissposed set of beliefs even after we show them Verses in the Bible and Traditions that counter this, but, I make one little statement, ‘The Reformers hated Jesus because of their actions,’ and, despite these people saying they do not follow the Reformers, and they don’t care what the Reformers say/said, and these men (and women) are dead and cannot hear us, THEY feel the need to get offended and defend their heroes.

 

[adstrinity]

I also question, why does Richard have to tell us everything he does (he doesn’t hate Catholics, he’s defended them at times, he’s an ex-Catholic, he’s a religion journalist, he was from Chicago)? I don’t care. I don’t need to know all that, I just see what he posts and how he insults the Catholic Church, and how he starts trouble (for which I suspect he is gleeful…but, perhaps not) by initiating this thread, when he knows that it’s not at all a happy day, the only people he will get who agree with him are those who are stubornly anti-Catholic, and more than likely, he gets to set himself up as a martyr.

But, that’s where I was coming from with this. I noticed that it upset Richard, and though Richard is Richard and not a member of a church with a particular set of beliefs, I had to push this because I wanted to see where it would go.

I really am surprised for somebody who is distorting the Catholic Church (posting about how the Church limits sex in another thread), he gets so upset about something as trivial as this.

WHY does this bother him so?

Thank you for asking me about this, Jon, and I look forward to your corrections about my misconceptions (or at least further education if I continue to hold on to my beliefs) about Luther.

 

[Junebug999]

What a travesty the Protestant Reformation was. My ancestors fell away from the Church then, and traded God’s truth as entrusted to his one and only and apostolic Church for a man’s truth, “Calvin, Luther, Zwengli…etc.”

After so many hundreds of years, the errors of Protestantism as posted by OP, had changed and twisted so many times, I was taught as a child a variety of Baptist though including even my father could not work in a business that served wine, and that the Baptist minster’s wife (who was also my mother) could not wear RED or even SLEEVELESS dresses.

If protestantism is the way and God’s only True church, then there would be ONE Protestant Church, it would be united and it would be apostolic. Since it isn’t, I praise God through his Grace alone, he led me to journey home to the One, the True, the Preserved Apostolic Church. The gates of hell have sure tried, but they have not succeeded yet.

I pray all Protestants through God’s grace will journey home to His True Church – and it is Catholic.

Let’s all pray for all Christians to be united in Christ’s Catholic Church.

 

[Richard_Abanes]

JON: to show the extreme views that can be taken by Roman Catholics who express ungodly animosity for non-Roma Catholics.

RA: Just like extreme views taken against Roman Catholics by some very hateful, mean-spirited, and unbiblical/un-Christ-like fundies and evangelicals. I am an equal opportunity critic. The point is such views are NOT RC and NOT EV.

R.A.

 

[JonNC]

JON: to show the extreme views that can be taken by Roman Catholics who express ungodly animosity for non-Roma Catholics.

RA: Just like extreme views taken against Roman Catholics by some very hateful, mean-spirited, and unbiblical/un-Christ-like fundies and evangelicals. I am an equal opportunity critic. The point is such views are NOT RC and NOT EV.

R.A.

For the record, the bolded part was not my quote, even though the way Richard referenced it, it might appear so. I’m sure it wasn’t intended.

Jon