To Protestants: Why aren't you Catholic?

[BennyD]

I’m not a Catholic because I don’t believe you HAVE to do sacraments to reach heaven(sorry if that’s a misconception, I don’t really know too much about the Catholic Church and what they believe). They help very very much with your faith, like baptism, but aren’t necessary to actually reach heaven. . I also don’t think the bible states that you can’t reach heaven if you don’t do all the sacraments. If you have scripture that contradicts me PLEASE SHARE! I’m willing to listen to anybody.

I do believe, however, that I must keep my faith in Jesus and never turn away from him. If I’m not doing good works because i love God, I probably don’t really believe anyway

 

[JSmitty2005]

BennyD:

I’m not a Catholic because I don’t believe you HAVE to do sacraments to reach heaven(sorry if that’s a misconception, I don’t really know too much about the Catholic Church and what they believe). They help very very much with your faith, like baptism, but aren’t necessary to actually reach heaven. . I also don’t think the bible states that you can’t reach heaven if you don’t do all the sacraments. If you have scripture that contradicts me PLEASE SHARE! I’m willing to listen to anybody.

I do believe, however, that I must keep my faith in Jesus and never turn away from him. If I’m not doing good works because i love God, I probably don’t really believe anyway

Baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation. We are justified or made “savable” when we are baptized.

 

[BennyD]

JSmitty2005:

Baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation. We are justified or made “savable” when we are baptized.

Thanks for replying my quote. If you are willing, could you please give me some verses about baptism and salvation? also I thought we were justified(declared righteous) when we first got saved.

Romans 3:23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely(not by doing sacraments but) by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

 

[St.Eric]

BennyD:

I’m not a Catholic because I don’t believe you HAVE to do sacraments to reach heaven(sorry if that’s a misconception, I don’t really know too much about the Catholic Church and what they believe). They help very very much with your faith, like baptism, but aren’t necessary to actually reach heaven. . I also don’t think the bible states that you can’t reach heaven if you don’t do all the sacraments. If you have scripture that contradicts me PLEASE SHARE! I’m willing to listen to anybody.

I do believe, however, that I must keep my faith in Jesus and never turn away from him. If I’m not doing good works because i love God, I probably don’t really believe anyway

Benny D. here are the scriptures that you requested regarding the sacrements. Happy reading!

THE SACRAMENTS
Infant Baptism
Jn 3:5; Mk 16:16 - baptism required for entering heaven
1Cor 15:21-22 - in Adam all die, in Christ all made alive
Mk 10:14 - let children come; to such belongs the kingdom
Lk 18:15 - people were bringing even infants to him…
Col 2:11-12 - baptism has replaced circumcision
Jos 24:15 - as for me and my house, we will serve Lord
Mt 8:5ff. - daughter healed because of centurion’s faith
Mt 15:21ff. - daughter healed because of Canaanite woman’s faith
Lk 7:1ff. - just say the word, and let my servant be healed
Acts 16:31 - believe in Lord Jesus you & house will be saved
Acts 16:15 - she was baptized, with all her household
Acts 16:33 - he and all his family were baptized at once
1Cor 1:16 - I baptized the household of Stephanas

Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist
Jn 6:35-71 - Eucharist promised
Mt 26:26ff (Mk 14:22ff., Lk 22:17ff.) - Eucharist instituted
1Cor 10:16 - Eucharist = participation in Christ’s body & blood
1 Cor 11:23-29 - receiving unworthily his body & blood
Ex 12:8, 46 - Paschal lamb had to be eaten
Jn 1:29 - Jesus called “Lamb of God”
1 Cor 5:7 - Jesus called "paschal lamb who has been sacrificed
Jn 4:31-34; Mt 16;5-12 - Jesus talking symbolically about food
1Cor 2:14-3:4 - explains what “the flesh” means in Jn 6:63
Ps 14:4; Is 9:18-20; Is 49:26; Mic 3:3; 2Sm 23:15-17; Rv 17:6, 16 -
to symbolically eat & drink one’s body & blood = assault

Confirmation
Acts 19:5-6 - Paul imposed hands on baptized, received Holy Spirit
Acts 8:14-17 - laid hands upon them, they received Holy Spirit
2Cor 1:21-22 - put seal on us and given Holy Spirit in our hearts
Eph 1:13 - you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit
Heb 6:2 - instruction about baptism & laying on of hands

Confession
Mt 9:2-8 Son of Man has authority to forgive sins
Jn 20:23 - whose sins you forgive/retain are forgiven/retained
Jn 20:22 - breathed on them, “receive Holy Spirit” [recall Gn 2:7]
2Cor 5:17-20 - given us the ministry of reconciliation
Jam 5:13-15 - confess your sins to one another
Mt 18:18 - whatever you bind & loose on earth, so it is in heaven
1Jn 5:6 - there is sin that is not deadly

Anointing the Sick
Mk 6:12-13 - anointed with oil many sick, cured them
Jam 5:14-15 - presbyters pray over sick, anoint, sins forgiven

Holy Orders
Acts 20:28 - Holy Sprit appointed you overseers, to tend Church
Lk 22:19 - do this in memory of me
Jn 20:22 - As Father sent me, I send you…receive Holy Spirit
Acts 6:6 - the apostles prayed and laid hands on them
Acts 13:3 - they laid hands on them & sent them off
Acts 14:22 - they appointed presbyters in each church
1Tim 4:14 - gift received through laying on of hands of presbyterate
2Tim 1:6 - gift of God you have through imposition of hands
Tit 1:5 - appoint presbyters in every town as I directed you
(also see The Priesthood)

Matrimony
Mt 19:5-6 - leave father & mother, join wife, 2 become 1 flesh
Mk 10:7-12 - what God joined together, no man separate
Eph 5:22-32 - union of man & wife image of Christ & Church
Heb 13;4 - let marriage be honored among all

 

[Alfie]

DARichards:

Doreen,

My question to you would be, what did you believe that the Catholic Church taught in regard to not only Salvation, but the relationship of Christ and man.

I am not saying that there are not Catholic Churches out there that don’t do a good job of catechising the Church, I would like to know though, what you were taught??

What about the contents of this Eucharistic Prayer??

FIRST EUCHARISTIC PRAYER

The Lord be with you or The Lord is here.
All and also with you. His Spirit is with us.

Lift up your hearts.

All We lift them to the Lord.

Let us give thanks to the Lord our God.

All It is right to give him thanks and praise.

It is indeed right,
it is our duty and our joy,
at all times and in all places
to give you thanks and praise,
holy Father, heavenly King,
almighty and eternal God,
through Jesus Christ your only Son our Lord.
For he is your living Word;
through him you have created all things from the beginning,
and formed us in your own image.

Through him you have freed us from the slavery of sin,
giving him to be born as man and to die upon the cross;
you raised him from the dead
and exalted him to your right hand on high.

Through him you have sent upon us
your holy and life-giving Spirit,
and made us a people for your own possession.

Therefore with angels and archangels,
and with all the company of heaven,
we proclaim your great and glorious name,
for ever praising you and saying:

All Holy, holy, holy Lord,
God of power and might.
Heaven and earth are full of your glory.
Hosanna in the highest.

Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
Hosanna in the highest.

Accept our praises, heavenly Father,
through your Son our Saviour Jesus Christ;
and as we follow his example and obey his command,
grant that by the power of your Holy Spirit
these gifts of bread and wine
may be to us his body and blood;
Who in the same night that he was betrayed,
took bread and gave you thanks;
he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying,
Take, eat; this is my body which is given for you;
do this in remembrance of me.
In the same way, after supper
he took the cup and gave you thanks;
he gave it to them, saying,
Drink this, all of you;
this is my blood of the new covenant,
which is shed for you and for many for the forgiveness of sins,
Do this as often as you drink it,
in remembrance of me.

All Christ has died:
Christ is risen:
Christ will come again.

Therefore, heavenly Father,
we remember his offering of himself
made once for all upon the cross,
and proclaim his mighty resurrection and glorious ascension.
As we look for his coming in glory,
we celebrate with this bread and this cup
his one perfect sacrifice.
Accept through him, our great high priest,
this our sacrifice of thanks and praise;
and as we eat and drink these holy gifts
in the presence of your divine majesty,
renew us by your Spirit,
inspire us with your love,
and unite us in the body of your Son,
Jesus Christ our Lord.

Through him, and with him, and in him,
by the power of the Holy Spirit,
with all who stand before you in earth and heaven,
we worship you, Father almighty,
in songs of everlasting praise:

All Blessing and honour and glory and power
be yours for ever and ever. Amen.

Correct me if I am wrong but I don’t read anything in the Eucharist about repenting of ones sin. The Holy Spirit will not come into a dirty container (human). The container must be cleaned first by repentance.

 

[Jen-joy]

First of all many Protestants would not consider me Protestant or Christian as a matter fact. I am LDS. But that’s for another thread. Over the last couple of years I have learned about the RC and have gained a lot of respect for it. I haven’t joined because there are still some things I either don’t understand yet or don’t believe. Some of the things even surprisingly parallel the LDS faith. But who knows maybe someday I will convert to the RC.

Pax,
Jen-joy

 

[St.Eric]

Alfie:

Correct me if I am wrong but I don’t read anything in the Eucharist about repenting of ones sin. The Holy Spirit will not come into a dirty container (human). The container must be cleaned first by repentance.

We do that in the confetery (sp) at the begining of Mass. It goes like this:

I confess to almighty God, and to you my brothers and sisters that i have sinned through my own fault, in my thoughts and in my words, and in what I have done, and what I have failed to do. And I ask Blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angels and saints, and you my brothers and sisters to pray for me to the Lord our God. Lord, have mercy, Christ have mercy, Lord have mercy. May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins, and bring us to ever lasting life. Amen

You are now a clean vessel!

 

[Doreen]

St.Eric:

I admit, I am completely dumbfounded by this.
By the way, you can’t conquer sin, that was what Christ died for.

Not to sound harsh, but…Away from me, Satan!

We CAN conquer sin…and to believe otherwise is to have Christ die in vain. We are to be “new creations in Christ”…and if we would ever truly trust in Him as He commands, we’d find ourselves living righteous lives in “this present age!”

"Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, To God our Saviour, who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and forever. Amen."
Jude 24

I don’t think it’s a coincidence that these are the final words of the Bible prior to the Revelation.

Things that make ya go…Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

To live in the cycle of sinning and repenting is to live without the POWER of the Spirit. And it is to say that Christ couldn’t actually accomplish what He came to do…to conquer sin and death…to overcome…to save us to the uttermost!

We limit God…and our experience is thus limited.

We trust and fully submit to Him and He becomes the animating force within us, motivating us toward righteousness and keeping us from evil.

Why do we recite these prayers over and over? Do we say “deliver us from evil” and then not believe that He can do it?

Think about it, friends. He is a mighty God. We are limited man.
But I can do all things THROUGH HIM that gives me strength.

Praise God!

 

[sparks]

Jen-joy:

First of all many Protestants would not consider me Protestant or Christian as a matter fact. I am LDS. But that’s for another thread. Over the last couple of years I have learned about the RC and have gained a lot of respect for it.

I didn’t realize how much error the RC taught until I actually learned about it and compared its teachings to scripture. Same goes for LDS teachings.

Jen-joy:

I haven’t joined because there are still some things I either don’t understand yet or don’t believe.

I understand what the RC teaches, and it is because of this understanding that I will never join it. And of course they will say I have the “wrong” understanding, but I don’t. I’ve studied Catholicism for eight years now. I’ve read the Catechism and the Catholic Encyclopedia to find out more about their beliefs, comparing them to Scripture, instead of relying on “anti-Catholic” material. I would encourage you to do the same, but don’t be surprised if you reach the same conclusion as I did.

Jen-joy:

Some of the things even surprisingly parallel the LDS faith.

I agree. There is error being passed off as truth in both faiths.

Jen-joy:

But who knows maybe someday I will convert to the RC.

Before that happens, I would hope you have at least read up on their teachings. Then again, studying is what is keeping me out of the Catholic church…and LDS for that matter. I can only hope you do the same.

 

[Jen-joy]

Sparks,

My feeling is there is error in everything we humans touch. We cann’t help it because we are extreamly short sighted and un-perfected. God only is prefect. I will be studying for a very long time not only the RC faith but my own LDS faith and most likely many in between.

Pax,
Jen-joy

 

[JSmitty2005]

sparks:

I didn’t realize how much error the RC taught until I actually learned about it and compared its teachings to scripture. Same goes for LDS teachings.

I understand what the RC teaches, and it is because of this understanding that I will never join it. And of course they will say I have the “wrong” understanding, but I don’t. I’ve studied Catholicism for eight years now. I’ve read the Catechism and the Catholic Encyclopedia to find out more about their beliefs, comparing them to Scripture, instead of relying on “anti-Catholic” material. I would encourage you to do the same, but don’t be surprised if you reach the same conclusion as I did.

I agree. There is error being passed off as truth in both faiths.

Before that happens, I would hope you have at least read up on their teachings. Then again, studying is what is keeping me out of the Catholic church…and LDS for that matter. I can only hope you do the same.

Rather than make unfounded assertions like the ones above, please be more specific in what is so unscriptural about Catholicism. Thanks

 

[JSmitty2005]

BennyD:

I thought we were justified(declared righteous) when we first got saved.

Catholics don’t necessarily believe in “getting saved.” Salvation does not have a date and time where you can say, “I got saved.” We believe that it’s a process and that we must perservere till the end of our lives. (No, I don’t mean that we work our way to Heaven.)

This pretty much sums up the Catholic view well:

I’m saved (Eph 2:5–8), being saved (1Cor 1:8), and hope I’ll be saved (1Cor 3:12–15). I’m working out my salvation in fear (Phil 2:12), with hopeful confidence in Christ (Rom 5:2).

 

[sparks]

JSmitty2005:

Rather than make unfounded assertions like the ones above, please be more specific in what is so unscriptural about Catholicism. Thanks

Infant baptism for one. Not a word, nor even a concept of it in scripture. That makes it unscriptural. More evidence of this would be the fact that the Apostles did not go about baptizing unbelievers. Sure we see them baptizing households and families, but these households believed – an infant is not capable of belief, nor even sinning - which rules out baptism for repentence as well.

Jesus said “Let the little children come to me…for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these”. That simple statement alone rules out the necessity of infant baptism – they are already His!

In the end, all Catholics can do is repeat the same old mantra of “2,000 years of history”. Which doesn’t even make sense considering the earliest records of baptism we have (the NT) do not show babies being baptized.

 

[sparks]

Jen-joy:

Sparks,

My feeling is there is error in everything we humans touch. We cann’t help it because we are extreamly short sighted and un-perfected. God only is prefect. I will be studying for a very long time not only the RC faith but my own LDS faith and most likely many in between.

Pax,
Jen-joy

Before you study either faith, I would encourage you to study the Bible first and become firmly grounded in scriptural truth. You won’t be able to discern error from truth if you don’t know what the truth is.

 

[JSmitty2005]

sparks:

Before you study either faith, I would encourage you to study the Bible first and become firmly grounded in scriptural truth. You won’t be able to discern error from truth if you don’t know what the truth is.

I will second the idea of going deeper into Scripture, because it will inevitably lead you towards the Catholic Church.

 

[sparks]

JSmitty2005:

I will second the idea of going deeper into Scripture, because it will inevitably lead you towards the Catholic Church.

Well, I’m living proof that ain’t true because the deeper I get into Scripture, the further away from the Catholic Church I go, and the closer to God I am.

 

[JSmitty2005]

sparks:

Well, I’m living proof that ain’t true because the deeper I get into Scripture, the further away from the Catholic Church I go, and the closer to God I am.

And I’m living proof that it IS true because the deeper I get into Scripture, the more I love the Catholic Church and the closer I am to God.

 

[sparks]

JSmitty2005:

And I’m living proof that it IS true because the deeper I get into Scripture, the more I love the Catholic Church and the closer I am to God.

So what say you about infant baptism? Can you prove it is biblical?

 

[St.Eric]

sparks:

So what say you about infant baptism? Can you prove it is biblical?

Sparks,

Here is the biblical support for your question. Enjoy!

Infant Baptism
Jn 3:5; Mk 16:16 - baptism required for entering heaven
1Cor 15:21-22 - in Adam all die, in Christ all made alive
Mk 10:14 - let children come; to such belongs the kingdom
Lk 18:15 - people were bringing even infants to him…
Col 2:11-12 - baptism has replaced circumcision
Jos 24:15 - as for me and my house, we will serve Lord
Mt 8:5ff. - daughter healed because of centurion’s faith
Mt 15:21ff. - daughter healed because of Canaanite woman’s faith
Lk 7:1ff. - just say the word, and let my servant be healed
Acts 16:31 - believe in Lord Jesus you & house will be saved
Acts 16:15 - she was baptized, with all her household
Acts 16:33 - he and all his family were baptized at once
1Cor 1:16 - I baptized the household of Stephanas

 

[sparks]

Sparks,

Here is the biblical support for your question. Enjoy!

Infant Baptism
Jn 3:5; Mk 16:16 - baptism required for entering heaven

All that is required is faith: “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved”, “…that whoever believes in Him will not perish, but has eternal life”, “truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise” – and these are just off the top of my head.

Baptism follows belief, but it is not what saves you. Belief - ie faith - is what saves.

1Cor 15:21-22 - in Adam all die, in Christ all made alive

Nothing to do with infant baptism.

Mk 10:14 - let children come; to such belongs the kingdom

Let children come…to be baptized? No. The kingdom already belongs to them. This single verse proves that infant baptism is unnecessary.

Lk 18:15 - people were bringing even infants to him…

To be baptized?? No. To be blessed.

Col 2:11-12 - baptism has replaced circumcision

So only male babies can be baptized? Of course not. Paul was not writing to infants, but to those who were dead to their sins and raised through their faith. Infants have neither sin nor faith.

Jos 24:15 - as for me and my house, we will serve Lord

Nothing about infant baptism.

Mt 8:5ff. - daughter healed because of centurion’s faith

Nothing.

Mt 15:21ff. - daughter healed because of Canaanite woman’s
faith

Nothing.

Lk 7:1ff. - just say the word, and let my servant be healed

Are you just closing your eyes and picking out random verses at will?

Acts 16:31 - believe in Lord Jesus you & house will be saved

Where do you see babies being baptized?

Acts 16:15 - she was baptized, with all her household

And somehow you know with 100% certainty that there were infants in this household and that they were baptized. You could just as well say her unbelieving brother was also taken to the water and dunked. Many consider pets to be members of the household – so lets just assume they took the family dog to be baptized as well. I mean, where does it end?

Acts 16:33 - he and all his family were baptized at once

Prove that they baptized infants, or that the family even had a single infant, and you’ll have a case. Speculation is not proof.

1Cor 1:16 - I baptized the household of Stephanas

Prove that they baptized infants, or that the household even had a single infant, and you’ll have a case. Speculation is not proof.