To Protestants: Why aren't you Catholic?

[Mickey]

St.Eric:

Mickey,

Looks like it is your turn. Have fun! I have completly exhausted the topic. At this point I think it may be wise to “shake the dust from your (our) feet.” Only God can penetrate a hardened heart.

God bless you St Eric. I’m shaking the dust right now.

The heart can change several times in one moment - to good or evil, to faith or unbelief, to simplicity or cunning, to love or hatred, to benevolence or envy, to generosity or avarice, to chastity or fornication. O, what inconstancy! O, how many dangers! O, how sober and watchful we must be!
St. John of Kronstadt

 

[Le_Cracquere]

believers:

Mickey, Is the Catechism of the Catholic Church divinely inspired?

I’ll go out on a limb here, and say “no.” However, believers, you’d probably concede that your minister’s Sunday sermon is not divinely inspired, either. However, if you like, respect, and trust your minister, and see that his sermon is firmly grounded on material that is divinely inspired, you’d put stock in it. The best Protestant sermons often find a modern application for scripture, or distill it in a way that makes it graspable and applicable for the congregation. Even if one discounts the Church’s magisterial authority, the Catechism is certainly no worse or less trustworthy than that, and I don’t see what a Protestant’s problem should be with it. (I’m one myself, and am currently reading the Catechism.)

 

[JSmitty2005]

believers:

Mickey, Is the Catechism of the Catholic Church divinely inspired?

No. Most believe it to be infallible though.

 

[St.Eric]

Le Cracquere:

I’ll go out on a limb here, and say “no.” However, believers, you’d probably concede that your minister’s Sunday sermon is not divinely inspired, either. However, if you like, respect, and trust your minister, and see that his sermon is firmly grounded on material that is divinely inspired, you’d put stock in it. The best Protestant sermons often find a modern application for scripture, or distill it in a way that makes it graspable and applicable for the congregation. Even if one discounts the Church’s magisterial authority, the Catechism is certainly no worse or less trustworthy than that, and I don’t see what a Protestant’s problem should be with it. (I’m one myself, and am currently reading the Catechism.)

Amen Le Cracquere. Well put. The CCC is simple our declaration or creed of what we beleive as Catholics. Why would that be divinley inspired? I have seen the creed of other protestant churches- none of them seem to be divenley inspired- they really don’t need to be. I can say that the CCC is without a doubt the most exauhstive declaration of belief among churches. As a protestant, whenever I went to a new church I would always ask the pastor for a written set of prinicples of the church. I was always disapointed when they handed me a small tract or a one page sheet. It was like “what? this is it? there has to be more.” There never was. The protestant well that I experienced was usually pretty shallow.
So, bottom line. It is irrelevant as to whether or not the CCC is divenley inspired.

 

[Eden]

believers:

Well… until very very recently, I did not know which faith I belonged to so I just put “Catholic.” My wife and I called ourselves “God’s People” until we were sure of our denomination. We read the Bible on our own and just kept reading. That’s how I became familiar with these scriptures. There isn’t a day that goes by that we don’t talk about Jesus and His teachings. Anyway, my own mom (Catholic for over 60 years converted to born-again 2 years ago) introduced me to her church. Our beliefs just happen to fit right in.

Oh, O.K. It sounds like you and your family just made up a religion to fit your needs. I know of people who “shop around” for the religion that fits them. That is not Biblical. Where in the Bible does Jesus tell us to search for the church that fits us?

Also, you stated that the formula to be a Christian is “read the Bible and proclaim Jesus Lord and Savior” but when I asked you where you found that in the Bible, you did not respond. Can you give me the passage?

I also asked if your religion allows photographs or images of a secular nature. Do you have photographs of the “men and women” in your family?

As far as ELS and the Bible Code, you originally stated that you began questioning your faith when Hurricane Katrina hit Louisiana. But now it appears this goes back at least two years when your mother left the Church. Did you study the ELS in “Moby Dick” or just the arrays in the Bible to reach the conclusion that you must leave the Church?

 

[Eden]

Believers, you said you left the Church in large part because you researched the Bible Code made popular by Michael Drosnin. Look at all the deaths and assasinations predicted in “Moby Dick”! I wonder what that means for the future of religion. :bigyikes:

The following challenge was made by Michael Drosnin:

When my critics find a message about the assassination of a prime minister encrypted in Moby Dick, I’ll believe them.
(Newsweek, Jun 9, 1997)

The “Bible Code” debunked here:

cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/moby.html

If the link doesn’t work look up “Assassinations foretold in Moby Dick” on Google and you will find the article. It’s complete with graphs for the assassinations of Itzhak Rabin, Indira Gandhi, Pres. Rene Moawad, Leon Trotsky, Martin Luther King, Jr., Chancellor Engelbert Dollfuss, by Sirhan Sirhan, JFK, Abraham Lincoln and the death of Princess Diana.

More here: skepdic.com/bibcode.html

Quote from the second link: Mathematician David Thomas did an ELS on Genesis and found the words “code” and “bogus” close together not once but 60 times. What are the odds of that happening? Thomas also did an ELS analysis on Drosnin’s Bible Code II: The Countdown (2002) and found the message "The Bible Code is a silly, dumb, fake, false, evil, nasty, dismal fraud and snake-oil hoax."*** **Does this mean that God put in a code to reveal that there is no code?

 

[JSmitty2005]

cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/moby.html

That link didn’t work for me.

 

[Eden]

JSmitty2005:

That link didn’t work for me.

Sorry. I can’t get it to work. If you put “Assassinations foretold in Moby Dick” in quotes like that, see if you can get the link on Google. It’s worth a look!

 

[St.Eric]

Good stuff Eden. Thank you! the Bible Code book sounds about as credible as “The Da Vinci Code.” This is actually all pretty biblical. Aren’t we warned that many will come as false prophets and lead some beleivers away? Satan as an angel of Light? I am not trusting my soul to the new fangled salvation theories. 2006 years of Christ’s chruch can’t be wrong! Oh yeah, he did promise us that the gates of Hell will not prevail against her. Amen.

 

[St.Eric]

TrustInTheLord:

Thanks for responding and the warm welcome! I forgot to mention that i don’t go to RCC anymore, cuz i’ve come to realize that it doesn’t help me, and i know i may be wierd to all, but lately i’ve become part of another church. So which is why i don’t see RCC is about Jesus teachings but more about the church teachings. I don’t know why we discuss this its better to find the solution so we can all come together as one, i know God would want us to built a church that only teaches one way and only through God’s laws and not the church laws. hmm…

Mickey do you read the bible? Do u understand it?

I did not say RCC ignores the bible, i think they don’t follow it the way they should. Sorry but this is my opinion.

Here are the biblical scriptures that support the VISIBLE RCC that Christ founded and wants uss all to participate in. “Father, let them be ONE, as you and I are ONE.”

THE CHURCH
Mt 16:18-19 - upon this rock I will build my Church
Mt 18:17 - if he refuses to listen even to the Church…
Mt 28:18-20 - go baptize and teach all nations
Mk 16:15-16 - go to whole world and proclaim gospel
Lk 10:16 - whoever hears you, hears me; rejects you, rejects me.
Jn 14:16, 26 - Holy Spirit with you always, teach/remind you of everything
Jn 16:13 - Spirit of truth will guide you to all truth.
1Tim 3:15 - Church is the pillar and foundation of truth.

The Church is the body of Christ
Col 1:18 - He is the head of the body, the church.
1 Cor 12:20-27 - you are Christ’s body, individually parts of it.
Eph 5:30 - we are members of His body.
Rom 12:4-5 - though many, we are one body in Christ
1 Cor 6:15 - Don’t you know your bodies are members of Christ?

The Church must be one
Jn 10:16 - there will be one fold and one shepherd.
Eph 4:3-6 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father
Rom 16:17 - I urge that there be no divisions among you
1Cor 1:10 - I urge that there be no divisions among you
Phil 2:2 - be of same mind, united in heart thinking one thing
Rom 15:5 - God grant you to think in harmony with one another
Jn 17:17-23 - I pray that they may be one, as we are one
Jn 17:23 - that they may be brought to perfection as one
1Cor 12:13 - in one spirit we are baptized into one body
Rom 12:5 - we, though many, are one body in Christ
Eph 4:4 - one body, one Spirit, called to be one hope
Col 3:15 - the peace into which you were called in one body
Mt 16:18-19 - upon this rock I will build my Church (singular)
Mt 18:17 – tell it to THE Church; if he refuses to listen even to THE Church… (must be visible)

Apostolic Church
Jn 15;16 - Jesus chose special men to be his Apostles
Jn 20:21 - Jesus gave the Apostles his own mission
Lk 22:29-3 - Jesus gave them a kingdom
Mt 16:18 - Jesus built Church on Peter, the rock
Jn 10:16 - one shepherd to shepherd Christ’s sheep
Lk 22:32, Jn 21:17 - Peter appointed to be chief shepherd
Eph 4;11 - church leaders are hierarchical
1Tim 3:1, 8; 5:17 - identifies roles of bishops, priests, deacons
Tit 1:5 - commission for bishops to ordain priests

Authoritative Church
Mt 28:18-20 - Jesus delegates all power to Apostles
Jn 20:23 - power to forgive sin
1Cor 11:23-24 - power to offer sacrifice (Eucharist)
Lk 10:16 - power to speak with Christ’s voice
Mt 18:18 - power to legislate
Mt 18:17 - power to discipline

Infallible Church
Jn 16:13 - guided by Holy Spirit into all truth
Jn 14:26 - Holy Spirit to teach & remind them of everything
Lk 10:16 - speak with Christ’s own voice
1Tim 3:15 - Church called “pillar and foundation of truth”
1Jn 2:27 - anointing of Holy Spirit remains in you
Acts 15:28 - Apostles speak with voice of Holy Spirit
Mt 28:20 - I am with you

Perpetual Church
Is 9:6-7 - of Christ’s government there will be no end
Dan 2:44 - God’s kingdom shall stand forever
Dan 7:14 - His kingdom shall not be destroyed
Lk 1:32, 33 - no end to Christ’s kingdom
Mt 7:24 - Jesus is like a wise man who built his house on a rock
Mt 13:24-30 - let wheat & weeds grow together until harvest
Mt 16:18 - gates of hell will never prevail against Christ’s church
Jn 14:16 - Holy Spirit will be with you always
Mt 28:19-20 - I am with you all days

 

[Mickey]

TrustInTheLord:

Mickey do you read the bible?

Yes.

TrustInTheLord:

Do you understand it?

Yes. I am thankful to have the Word of God properly interpreted through the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

How bout you?

 

[Doreen]

DARichards:

Doreen,

My question to you would be, what did you believe that the Catholic Church taught in regard to not only Salvation, but the relationship of Christ and man.

I am not saying that there are not Catholic Churches out there that don’t do a good job of catechising the Church, I would like to know though, what you were taught??

What about the contents of this Eucharistic Prayer??

FIRST EUCHARISTIC PRAYER

The Lord be with you or The Lord is here.
All and also with you. His Spirit is with us.

Lift up your hearts.

All We lift them to the Lord.

Let us give thanks to the Lord our God.

All It is right to give him thanks and praise.

It is indeed right,
it is our duty and our joy,
at all times and in all places
to give you thanks and praise,
holy Father, heavenly King,
almighty and eternal God,
through Jesus Christ your only Son our Lord.
For he is your living Word;
through him you have created all things from the beginning,
and formed us in your own image.

Through him you have freed us from the slavery of sin,
giving him to be born as man and to die upon the cross;
you raised him from the dead
and exalted him to your right hand on high.

Through him you have sent upon us
your holy and life-giving Spirit,
and made us a people for your own possession.

Therefore with angels and archangels,
and with all the company of heaven,
we proclaim your great and glorious name,
for ever praising you and saying:

All Holy, holy, holy Lord,
God of power and might.
Heaven and earth are full of your glory.
Hosanna in the highest.

Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
Hosanna in the highest.

Accept our praises, heavenly Father,
through your Son our Saviour Jesus Christ;
and as we follow his example and obey his command,
grant that by the power of your Holy Spirit
these gifts of bread and wine
may be to us his body and blood;
Who in the same night that he was betrayed,
took bread and gave you thanks;
he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying,
Take, eat; this is my body which is given for you;
do this in remembrance of me.
In the same way, after supper
he took the cup and gave you thanks;
he gave it to them, saying,
Drink this, all of you;
this is my blood of the new covenant,
which is shed for you and for many for the forgiveness of sins,
Do this as often as you drink it,
in remembrance of me.

All Christ has died:
Christ is risen:
Christ will come again.

Therefore, heavenly Father,
we remember his offering of himself
made once for all upon the cross,
and proclaim his mighty resurrection and glorious ascension.
As we look for his coming in glory,
we celebrate with this bread and this cup
his one perfect sacrifice.
Accept through him, our great high priest,
this our sacrifice of thanks and praise;
and as we eat and drink these holy gifts
in the presence of your divine majesty,
renew us by your Spirit,
inspire us with your love,
and unite us in the body of your Son,
Jesus Christ our Lord.

Through him, and with him, and in him,
by the power of the Holy Spirit,
with all who stand before you in earth and heaven,
we worship you, Father almighty,
in songs of everlasting praise:

All Blessing and honour and glory and power
be yours for ever and ever. Amen.

Hi DA…don’t have a lot of time, but will try to quickly reply to your question…I’ve been away from the site for a few days, so I am sure a lot more has been said…

Here’s the deal. I heard all those things, and as I heard them, I believed them fully…but the problem was that I did not see any of that having any effect on anyone’s life around me. It was not lived. It did not transfer over to have any real meaning, or provide me with any real practical understanding of what it all meant.

Continued on next post…

 

[Doreen]

Doreen:

Hi DA…don’t have a lot of time, but will try to quickly reply to your question…I’ve been away from the site for a few days, so I am sure a lot more has been said…

Here’s the deal. I heard all those things, and as I heard them, I believed them fully…but the problem was that I did not see any of that having any effect on anyone’s life around me. It was not lived. It did not transfer over to have any real meaning, or provide me with any real practical understanding of what it all meant.

Continued on next post…

Here’s the rest…

I heard so many great words over and over in the RCC, but they were just words…I didn’t have anyone witnessing to me about how these things, (i.e. the power of the Holy Spirit) didn’t know they were incredible things that would keep me from stumbling in life. It was all talk, but no action…no relevance…no testimony…no practical application.

So how would I be able to apply it when nobody else was? The message was, “be a good person” and you’ll get to heaven. God loves us all, and so if you just try and when you fail, you confess, and then just HOPE to be better next time, he’ll accept you.

I later learned, all my HOPING would get me NOWHERE. There is not a human on this planet that can “be good” enough for salvation. That’s the sadly missed message that left me miserable in a struggle against sin for much of my adult life—not to mention my childhood.

This is a SERIOUS oversight by the “church of Christ”…and I would not recommend the Catholic Church to anyone, until I see them living up to the standards Christ set, by teaching and living out the Gospel…

Bingo…beer tents at parish picnics??? Is this the example we should set for our followers?

There’s a higher standard, that can ONLY be reached by truly submitting our lives to Christ, and asking His Spirit to empower us … and this is a DAILY submission…

His mercies are new “EVERY MORNING”…just as the attack of the devil is new every day…it’s an ongoing surrender and trust that will keep us from stumbling. To be a “follower of Christ” is to love Christ, and to love Him is to obey His commands.

Once we decide to follow Him, He sends His Spirit to live in us, to motivate us and to empower us…to “deliver us from evil!”

He came that we might be overcomers.

I have experienced His strength in practical, amazing ways. I am sad for my friends who aren’t getting it…because they’re taught to live up to a much lower standard…they expect to sin over and over. They don’t expect God to be powerful enough to drive the devil out. Sad, sad, sad.

Brings me to tears!

Nicole Nordeman happens to be singing on my “shuffle” of CD’s right now…

“Your mercies are new every morning…” See. He’s truly present and we limit Him by our limited faith.

When you can honestly say that the Hymns of Old speak to your heart, you can know that you have truly come to know your God. These old songs have been bringing me to tears, now that I share the passion of their authors. The passion for Christ.

God bless you!
D.

 

[Eden]

The continuing theme throughout your posts is your reliance on other people. Have you noticed that?

By the way, Doreen, are you “reen” from way back when? Your posts are very similar to hers, especially the personal tidbits about yourself like “Nicole Nordeman happens to be singing on my ‘shuffle’ of CD’s right now…” If you are not “reen”, you have a spiritual sister! If you are “reen” .

 

[Mickey]

Doreen:

So how would I be able to apply it when nobody else was? …and I would not recommend the Catholic Church to anyone, until I see them living up to the standards Christ set, by teaching and living out the Gospel.

Your personal experiences and interactions are not a valid testimony against the Catholic Church–yet this is exactly what you offer as “evidence”.
That brings me to tears. :crying:

 

[Doreen]

Le Cracquere:

I’ll go out on a limb here, and say “no.” However, believers, you’d probably concede that your minister’s Sunday sermon is not divinely inspired, either. However, if you like, respect, and trust your minister, and see that his sermon is firmly grounded on material that is divinely inspired, you’d put stock in it. The best Protestant sermons often find a modern application for scripture, or distill it in a way that makes it graspable and applicable for the congregation. Even if one discounts the Church’s magisterial authority, the Catechism is certainly no worse or less trustworthy than that, and I don’t see what a Protestant’s problem should be with it. (I’m one myself, and am currently reading the Catechism.)

If I didn’t think my pastor was fully animated and motivated and guided by the Holy Spirit, I would seek a different church.

All believers should seek the witness of the Holy Spirit…and if we are true believers and followers of Christ, we will “know His voice”…it’s easy to hear the Spirit once you’ve submitted your life to Christ.

 

[Doreen]

Eden:

The continuing theme throughout your posts is your reliance on other people. Have you noticed that?

By the way, Doreen, are you “reen” from way back when? Your posts are very similar to hers, especially the personal tidbits about yourself like “Nicole Nordeman happens to be singing on my ‘shuffle’ of CD’s right now…” If you are not “reen”, you have a spiritual sister! If you are “reen” .

I first came to this website sometime in January or Feb. of this year. Never been here before that.

Your comment makes me laugh though…if what I am saying is like this other Christian person…that should tell you, you’re hearing the common theme of the HOLY SPIRIT in us!

Thanks for the confirmation that Christ is using me on here.


Re: this “reliance on other people” … you have it backwards. I rely on the Holy Spirit only…and as a Catholic, you are relying on generations of humans, trusting that THEY speak the truth.

Their voices are what you are listening to…St. A, St. B., St. C…where is the idea of being a SHEEP that would know His master’s voice? You aren’t following the master, but the teachings of man, if you aren’t listening to the Spirit of God.

That’s the truth, friend. And the truth shall set you free.

 

[Doreen]

Mickey:

Your personal experiences and interactions are not a valid testimony against the Catholic Church–yet this is exactly what you offer as “evidence”.
That brings me to tears. :crying:

I only can speak from experience. I rely on facts. What are you relying on?

 

[Mickey]

Doreen:

I only can speak from experience. I rely on facts.

Subjective experiences are not equivalent to facts.

Doreen:

What are you relying on?

Faith, hope, and love

 

[St.Eric]

Doreen:

“Your mercies are new every morning…” See. He’s truly present and we limit Him by our limited faith.

When you can honestly say that the Hymns of Old speak to your heart, you can know that you have truly come to know your God. These old songs have been bringing me to tears, now that I share the passion of their authors. The passion for Christ.

God bless you!
D.

Amen to that. I LOVE Gregorian Chant. You can’t get a lot older or more traditional than that. The chant always stirs up a lot of emotion in me and I feel the passion of Christ in the songs. here is a link where there are some MP3 samples of songs:

chicagomonk.org/liturgy.html