To Protestants: Why aren't you Catholic?

[believers]

DARichards:

Doreen and Expect

There are a couple of things that I have learned during my conversion to the Catholic Church.

1. “Protestant worship is pretty much the same as Catholic worship…with the heart cut out of it.”

Let me explain.

The Body of Christ is a beautiful organism that far surpasses all our minds and expanses in time. The Body of Christ is centered on one thing and one thing only : The death, burial and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. Without any of these three facets, we would be nothing but delusional. As precious and Holy as the Sacred Scriptures are, they are not God and they are not the Body of Christ. Christ didn’t die for the redemption Scriptures. He died to redeem people. Us who are in need of his redemption. When the Catholic Church venerates the Saints we are celebrating the work that God has done in the redemption in the lives of those who have gone before and who are right now before the very throne of the Father praying for us. Why would they pray for us? They would pray for us because we are all part of the same body. Remember in heaven there are not time or space boundaries…Only those who have achieved their eternal reward and who are interceding with the Father for us that we would join them.

This is why the Catholic Church focuses on the Eucharist. The Sacrifice of Christ is the center and the heart of our faith. When I was a protestant, yes I heard some awesome sermons!. I heard the Word proclaimed. But it was lacking. Why, you may ask. For the first reason, this was just this persons opinion of Scripture. If the center of our faith is the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord, then that is what we should be celebrating every week. THAT IS THE HEART OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH. THAT IS WHAT THE PROTESTANT CHURCH LACKS.

I

DA, As I understood it for many years… The Catholic church does not focus on the Eucharist. However, it does focus pimarily on the Eucharist during mass. Catholics believe the Eucharist, or Communion, is both a sacrifice and a meal. They believe in the real presence of Jesus, who died for our sins.Receiving Christ’s Body and Blood, nourished spiritually and brought closer to God.

Besides, the Eucharist is only 1 of the 7 sacraments. The seven sacraments are ceremonies that point to what is sacred, significant and important for Catholic Christians. They are special occasions for experiencing God’s saving presence. That’s what theologians mean when they say that sacraments are at the same time signs and instruments of God’s grace.

These are the Seven Sacraments
Baptism
Eucharist
Reconciliation
Confirmation
Marriage
Holy Orders
Anointing of the Sick

 

[Eden]

Doreen:

Exactly! And that’s why sharing our testimony is a wonderful thing. It encourages others to seek the Lord.

The Catholic Church has made “Sainthood” … some unique entity in which only a few elect might obtain…Protestants realize that Jesus came that we might all be transformed to His likeness, etc…

You are misunderstanding the saints. No one said they are a unique entity in a position in which only a few elect might obtain. The Church does not say that only the people who have been beatified are saints. All who are in heaven are saints.

The saints we know in the Church, which are the Sts. ABC that you referred to earlier are simply role models chosen for us to emulate in our path to Christ. Beatification simply means that the specific person in question is, without a doubt, in heaven. All who are in heaven have achieved “sainthood” and we are all called to be saints.

God is pleased when we venerate the saints because we are admiring His work - it is He in them that we desire. Through the saints, we see how as human beings, He can work through us if we allow Him to.

I understand that you would like me and all who read your posts to be uplifted by your spiritual journey. But to tell me that I am in error for venerating saints (who have finished their earthly life and are experiencing the Beatific Vision) and at the same time suggest that I and all Catholics should emulate your spiritual journey away from the Church - well, I just can’t take that seriously.

What sense does it make to degrade those who lived their lives fully for God saw their spiritual journey to completion and at the same time ask all of us to be inspired by you? You are still learning, still stumbling, still seeking Truth like all of us. All true believers hope to achieve sainthood. But neither you nor I have yet. I’m just gently trying to put your spiritual journey into perspective.

The devil surely hates for us to let anyone in on the secret that God cares about even us “little people.” We might actually start turning to Christ and trusting Him to change us.

St. Therese of Lisieux, comes to mind first. St. Bernadette, St. Teresa of Avila… Take a look at their humble circumstances and their humility. These were “little people”. Why is this so hard to understand? You elevate the importance of your own testimony; yet it seems difficult for you to accept anyone else’s.

It seems to me that you feel the lives of the saints diminish your importance in the whole scheme of Christianity rather than elevate it; as though your story is in competition with those of saints. What a sad state of affairs!

 

[DARichards]

Doreen:

The center of our faith is the resurrection…we can all die and be buried.

Re: the Saints…Jesus said they will be “asleep in Christ” until He comes again. Read Revelation to see when He calls the dead in Christ.

It sounds to me that what you are saying is that when we die we are in a “soul sleep.” Surely that is not what you are saying!! This is a heresy that is held by many unorthodox cults. When we die, “It is appointed unto man once to die, then judgement.”
When any of us die, we are either eternally condemned, or we are with the Lord (possibly by way of Purgatory, which is a totally new thread that is not for here.) and then with the Lord awaiting His return…

Doreen:

DA,
What I have heard on this thread and many others on CA is a common theme. Many Catholics will tell you that you must trust in the church. They don’t tell you that you can have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which will guide YOU into all truth.

Know this. Doubt and confusion are not of God. So if you have doubt about any aspect of the church’s teachings, I caution you to pray about it. Ask the Holy Spirit to teach you.

So what do you say to those(like myself) that say that the Holy Spirit has led you into the Catholic Church. The only thing that you would be able to say is that according to what the Holy Spirit has shown you that we are in error. If we both have the Holy Spirit, then who is the final arbiter for who is right and truly led by the Holy Spirit? It also sounds if your are implying that the Holy Spirit would never lead one who was truly seeking the Lord into the Catholic Church.

 

[DARichards]

believers:

DA, As I understood it for many years… The Catholic church does not focus on the Eucharist. However, it does focus pimarily on the Eucharist during mass. Catholics believe the Eucharist, or Communion, is both a sacrifice and a meal. They believe in the real presence of Jesus, who died for our sins.Receiving Christ’s Body and Blood, nourished spiritually and brought closer to God.

You are correct somewhat. In the Mass, everything points toward the Eucharist. It is on what all the other Sacrament s hinge.

believers:

Besides, the Eucharist is only 1 of the 7 sacraments. The seven sacraments are ceremonies that point to what is sacred, significant and important for Catholic Christians. They are special occasions for experiencing God’s saving presence. That’s what theologians mean when they say that sacraments are at the same time signs and instruments of God’s grace.

These are the Seven Sacraments
Baptism
Eucharist
Reconciliation
Confirmation
Marriage
Holy Orders
Anointing of the Sick

There are three Sacraments that Catholics can receive on a repeating basis: Eucharist, Reconciliation, and Annointing of the Sick. These are times when we come to Christ to receive grace for our particular situations.

 

[Doreen]

Eden:

It seems to me that you feel the lives of the saints diminish your importance in the whole scheme of Christianity rather than elevate it; as though your story is in competition with those of saints. What a sad state of affairs!

I don’t see how I am elevating myself. This is your attack on me because I don’t remain a member of the church you belong to. So you must find some fault in me.

This is frustrating to me. I don’t degrade the saints at all.

You keep saying I am prideful or I am judging others, and listen to what you are saying about me. Are you not judging me?

I’m afraid you are.

The points I made are true to my experience. That’s the only perspective I can speak from. For some reason that offends you.

I’m pretty much done on this thread, since I’m not going to continue to subject myself to unfair chastisements.

I’ve expressed my response regarding the OP.

D.

 

[Eden]

Doreen:

I don’t see how I am elevating myself. This is your attack on me because I don’t remain a member of the church you belong to. So you must find some fault in me.

This is frustrating to me. I don’t degrade the saints at all.

You keep saying I am prideful or I am judging others, and listen to what you are saying about me. Are you not judging me?

I’m afraid you are.

The points I made are true to my experience. That’s the only perspective I can speak from. For some reason that offends you.

I’m pretty much done on this thread, since I’m not going to continue to subject myself to unfair chastisements.

I’ve expressed my response regarding the OP.

D.

I don’t have anything against you personally. It’s the message that you are promoting that I am attacking. It’s also the idea that one can pick and choose a religion based on what fits them that I take issue with. To say that one can create a “do it yourself” religion and reject His Church and the teachings of the “deposit of faith” is spiritual poison. Yes, I attack that message.

Pope Benedict XVI said it much better than I when he pointed out the dangers in people finding their own religious routes. “If it is pushed too far, religion becomes almost a consumer product,” he said. "People choose what they like, and some are even able to make a profit from it. “But religion constructed on a ‘do-it-yourself’ basis cannot ultimately help us,” he said. “Help people to discover the true star which points out the way to us: Jesus Christ.”

 

[believers]

Eden:

I don’t have anything against you personally. It’s the message that you are promoting that I am attacking. It’s also the idea that one can pick and choose a religion based on what fits them that I take issue with. To say that one can create a “do it yourself” religion and reject His Church and the teachings of the “deposit of faith” is spiritual poison. Yes, I attack that message.

Pope Benedict XVI said it much better than I when he pointed out the dangers in people finding their own religious routes. “If it is pushed too far, religion becomes almost a consumer product,” he said. "People choose what they like, and some are even able to make a profit from it. “But religion constructed on a ‘do-it-yourself’ basis cannot ultimately help us,” he said. “Help people to discover the true star which points out the way to us: Jesus Christ.”

Eden, why are you “attacking”? That’s not what Jesus taught. Remember, Jesus gave us His own Commandment (John 15:12) “Love one another as I have loved you.” Whether or not a person believes in something different than your own faith. Love them. That’s what Jesus taught.

Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Mat 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam [is] in thine own eye?

Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

 

[believers]

Eden:

I don’t have anything against you personally. It’s the message that you are promoting that I am attacking. It’s also the idea that one can pick and choose a religion based on what fits them that I take issue with. To say that one can create a “do it yourself” religion and reject His Church and the teachings of the “deposit of faith” is spiritual poison. Yes, I attack that message.

Pope Benedict XVI said it much better than I when he pointed out the dangers in people finding their own religious routes. “If it is pushed too far, religion becomes almost a consumer product,” he said. "People choose what they like, and some are even able to make a profit from it. “But religion constructed on a ‘do-it-yourself’ basis cannot ultimately help us,” he said. “Help people to discover the true star which points out the way to us: Jesus Christ.”

Eden, I understand that you hold true to your faith. But remember , the very people that God chose who were supposed to watch for him put Him to death.

Matt 26:3-4
3 Then the chief priests and the elders of the people assembled in the palace of the high priest, whose name was Caiaphas,
4 and they plotted to arrest Jesus in some sly way and kill him.

Matt 26:59
The chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were looking for false evidence against Jesus so that they could put him to death

 

[St.Eric]

believers:

Eden, I understand that you hold true to your faith. But remember , the very people that God chose who were supposed to watch for him put Him to death.

Actually it is my sin, your sin, and all sin that put him to death.

 

[Doreen]

DARichards:

It sounds to me that what you are saying is that when we die we are in a “soul sleep.” Surely that is not what you are saying!! This is a heresy that is held by many unorthodox cults. When we die, “It is appointed unto man once to die, then judgement.”
When any of us die, we are either eternally condemned, or we are with the Lord (possibly by way of Purgatory, which is a totally new thread that is not for here.) and then with the Lord awaiting His return…

Earlier DA, you mentioned that God is not restrained by the same concept of time as we are. I agree with you totally.

See…as in The Chronicles of Narnia…time “outside the wardrobe” and time “within” are different; so those saints who are “asleep in Christ” won’t notice they’ve been asleep, (Jesus said even to the repentant sinner on the cross “Today, you will be with me in paradise.”) Notice when you sleep, time seems to stand still? This is a beautiful gift of the Lord’s to show us how HIS time works.

I don’t see Christ telling anyone they are headed for some inbetween state…you either live or perish. Just as the LORD in the OT says a zillion times…you either worship me and LIVE or PERISH. It’s over when it’s over in this life for those who don’t believe.

So what do you say to those(like myself) that say that the Holy Spirit has led you into the Catholic Church. The only thing that you would be able to say is that according to what the Holy Spirit has shown you that we are in error. If we both have the Holy Spirit, then who is the final arbiter for who is right and truly led by the Holy Spirit? It also sounds if your are implying that the Holy Spirit would never

lead one who was truly seeking the Lord into the Catholic Church.If you have truly emptied yourself of self, and before God you have not only confessed, but also repented (turned away from with utter hatred for it) your sin, and you have cried out from the depths of a pure heart, “Dear God, come to me and show me your ways, O’Lord!” And you have asked Jesus to be your Savior and King, and you have a sincere desire to be led by the Holy Spirit, and you ask:
“Holy Spirit, FALL ON ME! Change me, for I never want to be t he same again!” And then you prayerfully read His word…I promise you as He promises, “He will not leave you as an orphan.”

There is ONE voice to follow. And that voice will lead you into all truth.

If you are hanging on to any aspect of “religion” that tells you that you can have it both ways…keep on sinning, and still have the Spirit (READ 1 JOHN) … then you are being led by lies. (I am not saying that all Catholics are duped…but I will be bold and say that many are missing out on the conviction of the Spirit that will “keep us from stumbling”…

They will tell you, that is just “Doreen’s interpretation”…I will tell you SEEK FIRST (not the “church”) but the Kingdom of God, and His righteousness (no more sin) and all these things will be added unto YOU!"

God Bless You, DA.
D.

 

[Huguenot]

sparks:

Infant baptism for one. Not a word, nor even a concept of it in scripture. That makes it unscriptural. More evidence of this would be the fact that the Apostles did not go about baptizing unbelievers. Sure we see them baptizing households and families, but these households believed – an infant is not capable of belief, nor even sinning - which rules out baptism for repentence as well.

Jesus said “Let the little children come to me…for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these”. That simple statement alone rules out the necessity of infant baptism – they are already His!

In the end, all Catholics can do is repeat the same old mantra of “2,000 years of history”. Which doesn’t even make sense considering the earliest records of baptism we have (the NT) do not show babies being baptized.

I totally agree with you ; the texts shows BELIEVERS being baptized…
I don’t know what you call him in English ( I’m French ) and I don’t have an English Bible with me right now, but when Philip talked to an Ethiopian “minister” or whatever his job was, at one point the Ethiopian asked him “there’s some water here, what prevents me from being baptized ?” ( it’s not an exact quotation, I’m just trying to translate into English what I’ve read in French ) and Philip answers something like "IF YOU BELIEVE, it is possible " ; this passage clearly shows that faith was necessary to be baptized.
Even if my “summary” is awkward, I suppose you understand what passage I’m trying to refer to …

 

[St.Eric]

Huguenot:

I totally agree with you ; the texts shows BELIEVERS being baptized…
I don’t know what you call him in English ( I’m French ) and I don’t have an English Bible with me right now, but when Philip talked to an Ethiopian “minister” or whatever his job was, at one point the Ethiopian asked him “there’s some water here, what prevents me from being baptized ?” ( it’s not an exact quotation, I’m just trying to translate into English what I’ve read in French ) and Philip answers something like "IF YOU BELIEVE, it is possible " ; this passage clearly shows that faith was necessary to be baptized.
Even if my “summary” is awkward, I suppose you understand what passage I’m trying to refer to …

Phillip was talking to the Etheopian Eunich. And yet Jesus himself telss us to be baptized of the water and the spirit. Putting no age limit on it. Protestants are all over the board on the baptism issue anyway. A good number of protestant sects don’t even beleive it is necessary for salvation. In the words of St. Ignatius of Antioch “they will perish in their arguments.”

 

[Huguenot]

St.Eric:

Phillip was talking to the Etheopian Eunich. And yet Jesus himself telss us to be baptized of the water and the spirit. Putting no age limit on it. Protestants are all over the board on the baptism issue anyway. A good number of protestant sects don’t even beleive it is necessary for salvation. In the words of St. Ignatius of Antioch “they will perish in their arguments.”

I didn’t say there was an age limit, I said you have to be a believer to be baptized …
Who was St. Ignatius of Antioch speaking about when he said “they will perish in their arguments” ??? don’t tell me there were already Protestants at the time

 

[Eden]

believers:

Eden, why are you “attacking”? That’s not what Jesus taught. Remember, Jesus gave us His own Commandment (John 15:12) “Love one another as I have loved you.” Whether or not a person believes in something different than your own faith. Love them. That’s what Jesus taught.

Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Mat 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam [is] in thine own eye?

Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

Where in the Bible does Jesus tell us we do not need the Church? Can you show me where He tells us we will be given the Bible and all Christians will create their own “do-it-yourself” religion? He doesn’t. He says He will build His Church and He builds it on Peter. The relativist idea that all personal opinions and self-created religions are “equal” and should not be judged is from the Great Deceiver.

 

[Eden]

believers:

Eden, I understand that you hold true to your faith. But remember , the very people that God chose who were supposed to watch for him put Him to death.

Since I showed how mathematicians have debunked the Bible Code earlier in this thread. Are you willing now to consider that the Bible Code is a hoax?

 

[Eden]

St.Eric:

Actually it is my sin, your sin, and all sin that put him to death.

Exactly, St. Eric. This is fundamental to the faith. I was not aware that other Christian faiths do not teach that all of us are responsible for Christ’s death. Surprising.

 

[Huguenot]

Eden:

Exactly, St. Eric. This is fundamental to the faith. I was not aware that other Christian faiths do not teach that all of us are responsible for Christ’s death. Surprising.

Well I also believe that we are ALL responsible for Christ’s death …

 

[Huguenot]

Eden:

Since I showed how mathematicians have debunked the Bible Code earlier in this thread. Are you willing now to consider that the Bible Code is a hoax?

Well I didn’t even know that some people took it seriously …It seems nobody really does here ( in France )

 

[Eden]

RE: Narnia

Narnia is a novel, not the Bible. But C.S. Lewis has been credited by many Protestant converts to the Catholic faith for playing a significant role in their conversion. He was “Catholic” in just about every way but in name.

RE: Purgatory in the Bible

A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, “be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.” We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God’s graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and “under the earth” which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are “made” perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the “prison.” These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

 

[Eden]

Huguenot:

Well I also believe that we are ALL responsible for Christ’s death …

J’ai etudie a l’Universite Americaine de Paris il y dix ans. Bonjour France! BTW, I found out I have a Huguenot ancestor who went from Normandy to Canterbury to Southern Ireland in the 1600s. He was a Quaker and a weaver by profession.

Well I didn’t even know that some people took it seriously …It seems nobody really does here ( in France )

I didn’t either. But believers cited the Bible Code as being one of the reasons he left the Catholic Church earlier in this thread.