To Protestants: Why aren't you Catholic?

[Huguenot]

Eden:

That sounds completely uninteresting. You came here to question our teachings with your focus mainly on Mary which we have tried to address. Why in the world do you assume Catholics would be interested a thread called “Ask the Protestant”?

…Because some Catholics try to understand US …

 

[Mickey]

kujo313:

Mother of God, (was she not the Mother of God?) Can’t be.

Since you cannot see it in the Sacred Scriptures, and you do not accept the testimony of the earliest Christians, let’s read what the founder of your affiliation (protestantism) has to say about it.

God did not derive his divinity from Mary; but it does not follow that it is therefore wrong to say that God was born of Mary, that God is Mary’s Son, and that Mary is God’s mother . . . She is the true mother of God and bearer of God . . . Mary suckled God, rocked God to sleep, prepared broth and soup for God, etc. For God and man are one person, one Christ, one Son, one Jesus, not two Christs . . . just as your son is not two sons . . . even though he has two natures, body and soul, the body from you, the soul from God alone.
(Martin Luther)

 

[Huguenot]

Eden:

BIBLICAL:

The prayer begins, “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.” Luke 1:28 (The angel Gabriel is carrying a message from God. When we pray these words we are repeating words from God.)

BIBLICAL:

“Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.” This was exactly what Mary’s cousin Elizabeth said to her in Luke 1:42.

Amen."

Of course these words are biblical, the problem is : they’re not a PRAYER ; Gabriel talked to Mary to annouce what would happen to her …
If I talk to a colleague does it mean I’m praying him ?

and the end of the Catholic prayer "Mother of God pray for us sinners… ) is NOT biblical …

 

[wcknight]

Huguenot:

Of course these words are biblical, the problem is : they’re not a PRAYER ; Gabriel talked to Mary to annouce what would happen to her …
If I talk to a colleague does it mean I’m praying him ?

and the end of the Catholic prayer "Mother of God pray for us sinners… ) is NOT biblical …

Who is it that defines what is or what is not a prayer ??? For us Catholic, the Church does. For you protestants, evidently no one does.

There is no restriction on what one can say or not say to be a prayer. I can simply say, God help me, and that is prayer. The Bible does not define each and every prayer. The Bible itself does not even make this distinction, where is it written that folks are not allowed to pray words that are not written in scriptures ???

And finally remember the Bible was written, editted and compiled by the CATHOLIC Church not you protestants. Prtotestants did not eveen exist until the 15th century. The Bible (New Testament) was written in the first or second century) and the books compiled in the third. That is 1200 years BEFORE any Protestant even showed up on the scene !!!

Anyone can say whatever they want to ask God for help. The fact that we ask Mary or some of the saints for assistance is what protestants don’t agree with.

But from scriptures we know that the saints are not truly dead because they live on in Christ, from His Resurrection, all have risen with Him. God is the God of the living, and so we can most assuredly ask Mary or the saints to pray for us, just as we ask friends and relative to pray for us.

Beside it is from sacred traditions that we know that the Apostles often addressed Mary as “Holy Mary, Mother of God”. It was out for respect for Mary and recognized the fact that Mary was indeed the mother of Our Lord, Jesus Christ, who was BOTH God and man.

 

[reneeville]

How very sad Kujo, that you would compare the Mother of God to a donkey. Do you carry photos of your family in your billfold or wallet? Do you have any portraits of them in your home? As Christians, we are all family so, why is it irreverent to place those who have gone before us in a similar light?
In such bitterness, are you sure that you are led by the Holy Spirit?

kujo313:

Yes, maybe I was poorly cathecised. I’ve prayed for understanding and I believe I got it.
First of all, I cannot accept Mary as my “Holy Mother” for it is not followed by Jesus and the early church. I see her as a sign of the coming Messiah as prophesized by the Old Testament prophets. If I was to, then I’d have to accept the Holy Tomb, where He was laid; the Holy Rooms, where he taught; the Holy Donkey, which He rode into Jerusalem.

No. If Jesus wanted ME to accept Mary as my “mother”, then His words, actions, and actions of the letters from Paul, Peter, James and John would’ve leaned in that direction.

In the same way, I could start selling donkey medals which could have a prayer on the back. “Oh Holy Donkey! Carry us into the Holy City just as you carried our Savior!”

Rediculous as it sounds, it is the same kind of “exit ramp” that looking at any other Biblical character takes us.

Hold fast what our God said in Exodus 4: 4-5

4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God."

Enough said. Catholics are known for statues. Statues can also be “banners”, as the banner of the United States is the Stars and Stripes.
God does not want us to bow down to or serve statues or the person they resemble. The only thing we should remember is that we are reconciled WITH God THROUGH Jesus; what He is and what He did for us.

Why do you need to go outside that? You don’t have to.

 

[Eden]

Huguenot:

Of course these words are biblical, the problem is : they’re not a PRAYER ; Gabriel talked to Mary to annouce what would happen to her …
If I talk to a colleague does it mean I’m praying him ?

You are comparing the words “Hail Mary Full of Grace”, which the angel Gabriel carries as a message from God to a conversation with a colleague. As your conversation with a colleague would not be a Biblical or even religious event, I agree that you are not praying with him. On the other hand, when we say “Hail Mary” we are speaking actual words from God.

and the end of the Catholic prayer "Mother of God pray for us sinners… ) is NOT biblical

In what way is it not Biblical?

 

[DARichards]

Huguenot:

Of course these words are biblical, the problem is : they’re not a PRAYER ; Gabriel talked to Mary to annouce what would happen to her …
If I talk to a colleague does it mean I’m praying him ?

and the end of the Catholic prayer "Mother of God pray for us sinners… ) is NOT biblical …

One thing that you must remember, Huguenot, is that there is a HUGE difference between prayer and worship. I could pray to the Lord Jesus all day long and not worship Him. In the same sense, if we pray to Mary or the saints who have gone before, we aren’t worshipping them. Remember the old English. “I pray thee…” These people were not worshipping each other, but rather manking requests of each other. Therefore, in the Hail Mary, we are not worshipping Mary, but we are asking her to agree with us and pray with us to the Lord in our situation.

Remember the quote I made previously to Kujo…

DARichards:

Kujo buddy, better not ever let me catch you asking anybody to pray for you (this would be included but not limited to wife, son, mother, father, pastor, deacon, elder, friend, or televangelist…remember

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus

 

[St.Eric]

Anyone know what happened to Kujo’s new thread “ask the protestant.”? I cna’t find it. did the moderators pull it?

 

[St.Eric]

Huguenot:

Of course these words are biblical, the problem is : they’re not a PRAYER ; Gabriel talked to Mary to annouce what would happen to her …
If I talk to a colleague does it mean I’m praying him ?

and the end of the Catholic prayer "Mother of God pray for us sinners… ) is NOT biblical …

what exactly qualifies as prayer? In the entire New Testament, Jesus only tells us how to pray one time and that prayer was the “Our Father, who art in Heaven.”

If we go by Sola Scriptura and Jesus’ words- you should only say this one prayer whenever you pray to God- no freestyle prayers or any other prayers would be allowed since, technically, anything other than the “Our Father” is, well, unbiblical.

 

[DARichards]

St.Eric:

Anyone know what happened to Kujo’s new thread “ask the protestant.”? I cna’t find it. did the moderators pull it?

St. Eric,

I watched that thread for a while last night and I was rolling, but yes, I think they pulled it. There was some personal vindictiveness that started to appear between a couple of people. I was looking for in around midnight, and it disappeared

 

[Eden]

“The Blessed Virgin Mary told me that the devil is in the mood for engaging ina decisive battle against the Virgin. From now on we must choose sides. Either we are for God or we are for the devil. There is no other possibility”.

Sister Lucy dos Santos, oldest child seer of Fatima

kujo313:

First of all, I cannot accept Mary as my “Holy Mother” for it is not followed by Jesus and the early church. I see her as a sign of the coming Messiah as prophesized by the Old Testament prophets. If I was to, then I’d have to accept the Holy Tomb, where He was laid; the Holy Rooms, where he taught; the Holy Donkey, which He rode into Jerusalem.

No. If Jesus wanted ME to accept Mary as my “mother”, then His words, actions, and actions of the letters from Paul, Peter, James and John would’ve leaned in that direction.

In the same way, I could start selling donkey medals which could have a prayer on the back. “Oh Holy Donkey! Carry us into the Holy City just as you carried our Savior!”

From the forum rules: Non-Catholics are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics participating on the board.

 

[St.Eric]

DARichards:

St. Eric,

I watched that thread for a while last night and I was rolling, but yes, I think they pulled it. There was some personal vindictiveness that started to appear between a couple of people. I was looking for in around midnight, and it disappeared

Too bad. I was sorta enjoying that thread too. Eden, I got your PM but couldn’t respond- your mailbox is too full. thanks for the responses!

 

[Eden]

St.Eric:

Too bad. I was sorta enjoying that thread too. Eden, I got your PM but couldn’t respond- your mailbox is too full. thanks for the responses!

Thanks for letting me know. My box* was* getting full but I didn’t realize I had reached the limit.

 

[Huguenot]

wcknight:

Who is it that defines what is or what is not a prayer ??? For us Catholic, the Church does. For you protestants, evidently no one does.

There is no restriction on what one can say or not say to be a prayer. I can simply say, God help me, and that is prayer. The Bible does not define each and every prayer. The Bible itself does not even make this distinction, where is it written that folks are not allowed to pray words that are not written in scriptures ???

And finally remember the Bible was written, editted and compiled by the CATHOLIC Church not you protestants. Prtotestants did not eveen exist until the 15th century. The Bible (New Testament) was written in the first or second century) and the books compiled in the third. That is 1200 years BEFORE any Protestant even showed up on the scene !!!

Anyone can say whatever they want to ask God for help. The fact that we ask Mary or some of the saints for assistance is what protestants don’t agree with.

But from scriptures we know that the saints are not truly dead because they live on in Christ, from His Resurrection, all have risen with Him. God is the God of the living, and so we can most assuredly ask Mary or the saints to pray for us, just as we ask friends and relative to pray for us.

Beside it is from sacred traditions that we know that the Apostles often addressed Mary as “Holy Mary, Mother of God”. It was out for respect for Mary and recognized the fact that Mary was indeed the mother of Our Lord, Jesus Christ, who was BOTH God and man.

The Bible was compiled by the “primitive” Church ( early church), you’re right, but can we say the primitive church was “Roman Catholic” in the modern meaning of the word ? No idea …

Yes, if I say to God "God, help me ! ) it is a prayer …
I’ve never said we can’t pray words that are not in the Scriptures, but some of the words mentioned are in the Scriptures, the part "pray for us sinners " is NOT in Gabriel’s address to Mary …

Well, I don’t “know” from sacred tradition that the apostles called Mary the mother of God, so I won’t use this terminology for her …
When she is refered to in the New Testament, she’s simply called Mary…and I’ll do the same …

As for praying “departed saints”, well, sorry, I still don’t agree with you and I don’t …but somebody, on this forum and on other ( French ) forums where I talk with Catholics, some Catholics say it is not “compulsory” even for Catholics, so why would it be compulsory for Protestants ??

Somebody on this forum told me I probably have a broader problem with the doctrine of the “communion of the saints”, I said I agreed with him or her, I probably have …so I’ll leave it for now until I have inquired into it more seriously
( I haven’t had any religious teaching as a child, my folks are atheists and I was an atheist too when I was younger )

 

[Huguenot]

“The Blessed Virgin Mary told me that the devil is in the mood for engaging ina decisive battle against the Virgin. From now on we must choose sides. Either we are for God or we are for the devil. There is no other possibility”.

Sister Lucy dos Santos, oldest child seer of Fatima

From the forum rules: Non-Catholics are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics participating on the board.

But if we express a difference, if we say that we don’t agree with this or that Catholic doctrine, does it mean we are not respectful ??? does “respect” necessarily mean “full agreement” ?
If it does, how can we discuss then ???
I suppose that if the moderators thought we are disrespectful, they wouldn’t publish our messages …

 

[Huguenot]

St.Eric:

what exactly qualifies as prayer? In the entire New Testament, Jesus only tells us how to pray one time and that prayer was the “Our Father, who art in Heaven.”

If we go by Sola Scriptura and Jesus’ words- you should only say this one prayer whenever you pray to God- no freestyle prayers or any other prayers would be allowed since, technically, anything other than the “Our Father” is, well, unbiblical.

Paul tells us to pray, he says he prays too, without mentioning the actual words he used …
what I wanted to say is that the first two sentences are found in Gabriel’s address to Mary in the New Testament, but not the last one ( where you ask Mary to pray for you … ; I wanted to make a difference between the two types of texts quoted , that’s all … )

 

[Eden]

Huguenot:

The Bible was compiled by the “primitive” Church ( early church), you’re right, but can we say the primitive church was “Roman Catholic” in the modern meaning of the word ? No idea …

If you look at the records from the Council of Carthage when the Canon was set, you will see that the result was sent back to Pope Boniface in Rome:

CANON XXIV. (Greek xxvii.)

That nothing be read in church besides the Canonical Scripture.

ITEM, that besides the Canonical Scriptures nothing be read in church under the name of divine Scripture.

But the Canonical Scriptures are as follows:

• Genesis
• Exodus
• Leviticus
• Numbers
• Deuteronomy
• Joshua the Son of Nun
• The Judges
• Ruth
• The Kings (4 books)
• The Chronicles (2 books)
• Job
• The Psalter
• The Five books of Solomon
• The Twelve Books of the Prophets
• Isaiah
• Jeremiah
• Ezechiel
• Daniel
• Tobit
• Judith
• Esther
• Ezra (2 books)
• Macchabees (2 books)

The New Testament:

• The Gospels (4 books)
• The Acts of the Apostles (1 book)
• The Epistles of Paul (14)
• The Epistles of Peter, the Apostle (2)
• The Epistles of John the Apostle (3)
• The Epistles of James the Apostle (1)
• The Epistle of Jude the Apostle (1)
• The Revelation of John (1 book)

Let this be sent to our brother and fellow bishop, [Pope] Boniface, and to the other bishops of those parts, that they may confirm this canon, for these are the things which we have received from our fathers to be read in church.

newadvent.org/fathers/3816.htm

Pope Boniface I was the 42nd Pope:

newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm

 

[Eden]

Huguenot:

But if we express a difference, if we say that we don’t agree with this or that Catholic doctrine, does it mean we are not respectful ??? does “respect” necessarily mean “full agreement” ?
If it does, how can we discuss then ???
I suppose that if the moderators thought we are disrespectful, they wouldn’t publish our messages …

Comparing the Virgin Mary to a donkey and comparing the use of Holy Medals of the Virgin Mary to the donkey that Jesus rode is not respectful of the Church’s teachings. Please look at the quote from kujo that preceded my reminder of the forum rules.

 

[Huguenot]

DARichards:

One thing that you must remember, Huguenot, is that there is a HUGE difference between prayer and worship. I could pray to the Lord Jesus all day long and not worship Him. In the same sense, if we pray to Mary or the saints who have gone before, we aren’t worshipping them. Remember the old English. “I pray thee…” These people were not worshipping each other, but rather manking requests of each other. Therefore, in the Hail Mary, we are not worshipping Mary, but we are asking her to agree with us and pray with us to the Lord in our situation.

Remember the quote I made previously to Kujo…

I know the difference between worship and prayer, although for me it is difficult to separate the two ; the problem for me is also the fact of praying someone who isn’t “here with us” any more, whether it is worship or not doesn’t change anything for me …
I don’t mind asking a friend to pray for me, contrary to what you say to Kujo : for me , the situation is different according to whether you ask somebody who is still here with us, or somebody who is in Heaven, to pray for you … ; for you, if I have understood well ( not only for you, for Catholics in general it seems ) it is the same thing because of the doctrine of the communion of the saints, which until now I haven’t managed to understand, sorry …( somebody said on this forum that I had a problem with it, sure he’s right, I admit I have ; I can’t understand everything … )

 

[DARichards]

Huguenot:

But if we express a difference, if we say that we don’t agree with this or that Catholic doctrine, does it mean we are not respectful ??? does “respect” necessarily mean “full agreement” ?
If it does, how can we discuss then ???
I suppose that if the moderators thought we are disrespectful, they wouldn’t publish our messages …

You may or may not have seen it, but an earlier post used an analogy of a donkey and the Blessed Mother…
This is what this post refers to… not legitimate charitible discussions and disagreements…