To Protestants: Why aren't you Catholic?

[Huguenot]

Eden:

Comparing the Virgin Mary to a donkey and comparing the use of Holy Medals of the Virgin Mary to the donkey that Jesus rode is not respectful of the Church’s teachings. Please look at the quote from kujo that preceded my reminder of the forum rules.

I’ve read it but I didn’t “understand” he was comparing Mary to a donkey …I thought he meant these medals have no value, or something like that .
The use of medals also puzzles me ; if some people say they are reminders of something, even if I don’t agree, I can understand ( although I don’t really agree with the fact of having a reminder of Mary ) but in France ( I don’t know if it is the same in your country ) some medals are supposed to have, in themselves, a “power”, which sounds quite “magical” to me ; I don’t know if it is the official teaching of the Catholic Church : for example, I don’t know if you’ve heard about the “miraculous medal” , it was made after, according to some Catholics ( I say to “some” because I know that some “apparitions” have been recognized by the Catholic Church, others haven’t, and for this one I don’t know if it has … ), Mary appeared in a street in Paris called “rue du Bac” ; the medal is supposed to heal people, protect them and so on …
But how can an “object” protect us ? GOD protects us …
If you believe Mary can also protect you ( I don’t ) then I’ve always supposed that you believe MARY herself protects you, not a medal or a statue that represents her …Sorry to say but it sounds “supertitious” to me ( the fact of believing an object can protect you I mean … )

 

[Huguenot]

DARichards:

You may or may not have seen it, but an earlier post used an analogy of a donkey and the Blessed Mother…
This is what this post refers to… not legitimate charitible discussions and disagreements…

I’ve read it but didn’t understand it as an analogy between Mary and a donkey --see my answer to Eden on this subject ( my English is not perfect … )

 

[Eden]

Huguenot:

Sorry to say but it sounds “supertitious” to me ( the fact of believing an object can protect you I mean … )

Here are some scriptural examples in which we see God using physical things for healing:

Mark 15:43; John 19:38 - Joseph of Arimathea sought Christ’s dead body instead of leaving it with the Romans. Joseph gave veneration to our Lord’s body.

Mark 16:1; Luke 24:1 - the women came to further anoint Christ’s body even though it had been sealed in the tomb.

John 19:39 - Nicodemus donated over one hundred pounds of spices to wrap in Jesus’ grave clothes. This is also veneration of our Lord’s body.

Matt. 9:21; Mark 5:28 - the woman with the hemorrhage just sought the hem of Christ’s cloak and was cured. This shows that God uses physical things to effect the supernatural.

Acts 19:11-12 - Paul’s handkerchiefs healed the sick and those with unclean spirits. This is another example of physical things effecting physical and spiritual cures.

Acts 5:15 - Peter’s shadow healed the sick. This proves that relics of the saints have supernatural healing power, and this belief has been a part of Catholic tradition for 2,000 years.

Rev. 6:9 - the souls of the martyrs are seen beneath the heavenly altar. Their bones are often placed beneath altars in Catholic churches around the world.

2 Kings 13:21 - Elisha’s bones bring a man back to life. The saints’ bones are often kept beneath the altars of Catholic churches and have brought about supernatural cures throughout the Christian age. Rom. 13:7; Phil. 2:25-29; Heb. 3:3; 1 Pet. 2:7 – we are taught to honor the people of God and in 1 Cor. 4:16-17; 1 Cor. 11:1-2; Phil. 3:17; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:7; Heb. 6:12; Heb. 13:7; James 5:10-11 – we are reminded to imitate them. Keeping relics of the saints serves both to honor and imitate their heroic faith in Christ (just as keeping articles of deceased loved ones helps us honor and imitate them).

scripturecatholic.com

 

[DARichards]

Huguenot:

I know the difference between worship and prayer, although for me it is difficult to separate the two ; the problem for me is also the fact of praying someone who isn’t “here with us” any more, whether it is worship or not doesn’t change anything for me …
I don’t mind asking a friend to pray for me, contrary to what you say to Kujo : for me , the situation is different according to whether you ask somebody who is still here with us, or somebody who is in Heaven, to pray for you … ; for you, if I have understood well ( not only for you, for Catholics in general it seems ) it is the same thing because of the doctrine of the communion of the saints, which until now I haven’t managed to understand, sorry …( somebody said on this forum that I had a problem with it, sure he’s right, I admit I have ; I can’t understand everything … )

Huguenot,

The Communion of the Saints is a most wonderful thing. Christ Himself said that He is the vine and we are the branches. We all are of Christ. Those that have gone before us are more alive and more in Christ than we are!!! It is that same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead and the same Spirit that brought them to Christ that is in us! We are all one Body in Christ, even though they are not physically here with us. That is why the Church uses the term the Mystical Body of Christ. The Church is divided into three forms 1) The Church Triumphant: Those presently with the Lord 2) The Church Expectant: Those currently being purified and awaiting their heavenly reward, and 3) The Church Militant: Those here on the earth still fighting the enemy and expanding the Kingdom of Christ. But remember, all One Body of the Lord…

 

[Huguenot]

Eden:

Here are some scriptural examples in which we see God using physical things for healing:

Mark 15:43; John 19:38 - Joseph of Arimathea sought Christ’s dead body instead of leaving it with the Romans. Joseph gave veneration to our Lord’s body.

Mark 16:1; Luke 24:1 - the women came to further anoint Christ’s body even though it had been sealed in the tomb.

John 19:39 - Nicodemus donated over one hundred pounds of spices to wrap in Jesus’ grave clothes. This is also veneration of our Lord’s body.

Matt. 9:21; Mark 5:28 - the woman with the hemorrhage just sought the hem of Christ’s cloak and was cured. This shows that God uses physical things to effect the supernatural.

Acts 19:11-12 - Paul’s handkerchiefs healed the sick and those with unclean spirits. This is another example of physical things effecting physical and spiritual cures.

Acts 5:15 - Peter’s shadow healed the sick. This proves that relics of the saints have supernatural healing power, and this belief has been a part of Catholic tradition for 2,000 years.

Rev. 6:9 - the souls of the martyrs are seen beneath the heavenly altar. Their bones are often placed beneath altars in Catholic churches around the world.

2 Kings 13:21 - Elisha’s bones bring a man back to life. The saints’ bones are often kept beneath the altars of Catholic churches and have brought about supernatural cures throughout the Christian age. Rom. 13:7; Phil. 2:25-29; Heb. 3:3; 1 Pet. 2:7 – we are taught to honor the people of God and in 1 Cor. 4:16-17; 1 Cor. 11:1-2; Phil. 3:17; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:7; Heb. 6:12; Heb. 13:7; James 5:10-11 – we are reminded to imitate them. Keeping relics of the saints serves both to honor and imitate their heroic faith in Christ (just as keeping articles of deceased loved ones helps us honor and imitate them).

scripturecatholic.com

The first three quotations show that Jesus’s disciples wanted Him to be buried correctly, I don’t see any connection with what I’ve said before ( power of physical objects ) ; or do you mean He was risen from the Dead because of what His disciples did ? I don’t think so …I wouldn’t call it “veneration” though …

Apart from the example with Elisha’s bones, the other examples are about people or objects belonging to people who were still alive when God used them ( or these objects or even a shadow ) to heal people, for me it is not the same as relics ;

the passage of Revelation is not connected with the fact of having relics under altars in our physical world since it describes something happening in heaven ;

Elisha’s bones could be considered as relics, it’s not the same as “medals” made to remember an event, these were medals representing Mary, they have never belonged to her ;

but you said something important anyway : “examples of GOD USING PHYSICAL THINGS”…with this I agree, but for me the power does not “reside” in those things, but in GOD HIMSELF : HE uses these physical things …( there is another example when Jesus heals an blind man using mud …in other instances He healed people without any “physical thing” ; but GOD heals, not an object … )

For me “honoring the people of God” doesn’t mean keeping their bones or objects that have belonged to them …

 

[Huguenot]

DARichards:

Huguenot,

The Communion of the Saints is a most wonderful thing. Christ Himself said that He is the vine and we are the branches. We all are of Christ. Those that have gone before us are more alive and more in Christ than we are!!! It is that same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead and the same Spirit that brought them to Christ that is in us! We are all one Body in Christ, even though they are not physically here with us. That is why the Church uses the term the Mystical Body of Christ. The Church is divided into three forms 1) The Church Triumphant: Those presently with the Lord 2) The Church Expectant: Those currently being purified and awaiting their heavenly reward, and 3) The Church Militant: Those here on the earth still fighting the enemy and expanding the Kingdom of Christ. But remember, all One Body of the Lord…

Somebody has already tried to explain it to me but although I “hear” the words, I don’t "grasp " the concept, sorry, for now I’ll leave this subject …
Maybe I need some more time …

 

[Eden]

Huguenot:

but you said something important anyway : “examples of GOD USING PHYSICAL THINGS”…with this I agree, but for me the power does not “reside” in those things, but in GOD HIMSELF : HE uses these physical things.

The Church has never taught that the power of these physical things comes from any source other than God.

 

[St.Eric]

Huguenot:

I’ve read it but I didn’t “understand” he was comparing Mary to a donkey …I thought he meant these medals have no value, or something like that .
The use of medals also puzzles me ; if some people say they are reminders of something, even if I don’t agree, I can understand ( although I don’t really agree with the fact of having a reminder of Mary ) but in France ( I don’t know if it is the same in your country ) some medals are supposed to have, in themselves, a “power”, which sounds quite “magical” to me ; I don’t know if it is the official teaching of the Catholic Church : for example, I don’t know if you’ve heard about the “miraculous medal” , it was made after, according to some Catholics ( I say to “some” because I know that some “apparitions” have been recognized by the Catholic Church, others haven’t, and for this one I don’t know if it has … ), Mary appeared in a street in Paris called “rue du Bac” ; the medal is supposed to heal people, protect them and so on …
But how can an “object” protect us ? GOD protects us …
If you believe Mary can also protect you ( I don’t ) then I’ve always supposed that you believe MARY herself protects you, not a medal or a statue that represents her …Sorry to say but it sounds “supertitious” to me ( the fact of believing an object can protect you I mean … )

The sacrementals (in this case medals) have NO power in and of themselves. Rather, it is God’s grace working through the physical object. Just as Jesus used Mud made from dirt and his own spit to make a blind man see. The mud itself had no power. It was Jesus working his grace through the mud. Or when the woman was healed when she touched Jesus’ robe. The robe itself did not heal her but his grace working through that physical object and her faith in that fact. The bible and the world are full of examples of God’s grace working through physical objects. To believe that the object itself has power is not only superstitious, but also idolatry.

 

[DARichards]

Huguenot:

Somebody has already tried to explain it to me but although I “hear” the words, I don’t "grasp " the concept, sorry, for now I’ll leave this subject …
Maybe I need some more time …

Quite alright…As a wise friend told me once, “just pray to the Holy Spirit for revelation…”

 

[kujo313]

Eden:

You either accept that Jesus was God or not. If you do, then you must also accept that Mary was the Mother of God. It’s called a syllogism.

Luke 1:48

Why must you think past “Jesus is God?” Why think any further? Nobody kept the burning bush. Nobody showed off the donkey. Nobody kept the mud that Jesus put in the blind man’s eyes.
Nobody desired souvineres. (probably because they didn’t have ebay!)

Jesus IS Lord. Jesus IS the Way. Jesus IS the Truth. Jesus IS who He said He was and proved it.

WHY think outside that box? WHY worry about what happened to anything else outside Jesus?

Heaven and earth may fade, but His Word will remain.

Who really cares if Mary wanted to be called the Mother of God? Who really cares if Mary’s mother should be called the Holy Grandmother? Who really cares if they found the bones of James or not?

All that matters is Jesus: crucified, died and resurrected. We can go DIRECTLY to the Throne because of the Cross, period.

 

[St.Eric]

kujo313:

Why must you think past “Jesus is God?” Why think any further? Nobody kept the burning bush. Nobody showed off the donkey. Nobody kept the mud that Jesus put in the blind man’s eyes.
Nobody desired souvineres. (probably because they didn’t have ebay!)

Jesus IS Lord. Jesus IS the Way. Jesus IS the Truth. Jesus IS who He said He was and proved it.

WHY think outside that box? WHY worry about what happened to anything else outside Jesus?

Heaven and earth may fade, but His Word will remain.

Who really cares if Mary wanted to be called the Mother of God? Who really cares if Mary’s mother should be called the Holy Grandmother? Who really cares if they found the bones of James or not?

All that matters is Jesus: crucified, died and resurrected. We can go DIRECTLY to the Throne because of the Cross, period.

Because Jesus does not exist in a vacuum. Jesus died for our sins, true. Jesus is the one mediator between us and God, true. Jesus is our salvation, true. Jesus also has a family. Jesus wants us to all be a part of that family. That family includes the Father, the Son, the Holy spirit, his Mother, the communion of Saints, his mystical body on Earth, the Church. You are seeing Jesus through tunnel vision. Take away that tunnel and you will see Jesus at the center of a magnificent Heavenly family. Your vision is akin to a horse with blinders on its eyes.

 

[Eden]

kujo313:

Why must you think past “Jesus is God?” Why think any further? Nobody kept the burning bush. Nobody showed off the donkey. Nobody kept the mud that Jesus put in the blind man’s eyes.

Is the burning bush the Mother of God?

Is the donkey the Mother of God?

Is the mud that Jesus put in the blind man’s eyes the Mother of God?

No? Then why are you using these examples in response to the syllogism of the Mother of God?

Nobody desired souvineres.

I assume you are referring to relics. Relics are not souvenirs.

Jesus IS Lord. Jesus IS the Way. Jesus IS the Truth. Jesus IS who He said He was and proved it.

Of course. Who said these things are not true?

WHY think outside that box? WHY worry about what happened to anything else outside Jesus?

With this framework, why bother to read the Old Testament at all?

Who really cares if Mary wanted to be called the Mother of God?

She said future generations would call her blessed. Why do you think that was recorded in the Bible if it was not significant?

 

[St.Eric]

Eden:

With this framework, why bother to read the Old Testament at all?

?

as a former fundamentalist/protestant I can say we/I very much discounted the Old Testament. In fact I a lot of the times it is viewed as irrelevant since Christ came and established the New Convenant. As Kujo stated, the entire focus is on Jesus and only Jesus. It is part of the “Me and Jesus” mentality.

I now see how shallow this view is. I was totally ignoring Christ’s own words " Do not think I have come to abolish the law; I have come to fulfill the law…"
Discounting the Old Testament is like trying to get to city you have never visited with only half of a road map. the Old Testament is included in the bible for a reason.

 

[kujo313]

St.Eric:

Because Jesus does not exist in a vacuum. Jesus died for our sins, true. Jesus is the one mediator between us and God, true. Jesus is our salvation, true. Jesus also has a family. Jesus wants us to all be a part of that family. That family includes the Father, the Son, the Holy spirit, his Mother, the communion of Saints, his mystical body on Earth, the Church. You are seeing Jesus through tunnel vision. Take away that tunnel and you will see Jesus at the center of a magnificent Heavenly family. Your vision is akin to a horse with blinders on its eyes.

And why not blinders? I don’t want to be distracted from my goal! Just as Paul wrote about finishing the race, the runner only looks at the goal.
Revelation 3:21
“To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.”
Same throne. Nobody can say “I was here first.” “No ME!” “No, ME!”
Matthew 10:37
“He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.”

1 Corinthians 2:2
For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

That’s what I want to hear.

 

[Agrazing_Mace]

“ReflectHim]not anti- catholic, but I don’t believe it’s the church founded by Jesus Christ, nor do i agree with some of their “rules.” I know others that follow scripture closer than the catholic church. i guess i don’t agree with their interpretation of the Bible.”

As your brother in Christ, I would strongly urge you to read-up on what body/organization actually compiled Sacred Scripture? Hmmm. Yes, I know, it can be hard to swallow one’s pride. And please, trust that I am not trying to belittle you because of where you are in your own journey, I have been there myself. Just let me quote something mlcampbell wrote in another forum.
“I think that a lot of people these days have the notion in their heads that, “when I look for a community or denomination to become a part of, I want one that fits the personal beliefs and values that I already have.” This arises from the fact that a lot of times people never think to ask, “are theses beliefs and values that I hold to, truely what Jesus wants me to believe?” There is so much emphasis placed on what “I think Jesus is,” and not enough real, genuine inquiry into what Jesus actually is. In other words, there is often no serious endeavor to discover the truth. So for starters, I can recommend that you don’t look for a denomination or group that makes you feel comfortable with what you believe; instead, strive for objective fact and truth. Thinking of the matter in this persepective, you will hopefully be much more open to the Catholic Faith.”

So, in summary, when one chooses to search for the truth objectively, it becomes difficult to see any other option more viable than Catholicism. This objective truth can be realized through a basic study of history, an intellectual look at Sacred Scripture, a humbly-open approach to the validity of Sacred Tradition, and prayer.
God’s blessings be with you. Open your heart and mind to Christ’s intentions, and the worst thing that could happen would be a newfound respect for Catholicism.

(I apologize if this response appears out of order— my reply was aimed at someone’s message from page 1 of 6)

 

[Eden]

The Sacraments, the intercession of Mary and the saints, the Eucharist, the Rosary, the Mass, the Bible: all of these things are a means to draw us closer to Christ.

You seem to think they distract us from Christ but quite the contrary. They enhance our relationship with Him. He is the center of the faith. The Church is the Bride of Christ.

 

[Eden]

Agrazing Mace:

“I think that a lot of people these days have the notion in their heads that, “when I look for a community or denomination to become a part of, I want one that fits the personal beliefs and values that I already have.” This arises from the fact that a lot of times people never think to ask, “are theses beliefs and values that I hold to, truely what Jesus wants me to believe?” There is so much emphasis placed on what “I think Jesus is,” and not enough real, genuine inquiry into what Jesus actually is. In other words, there is often no serious endeavor to discover the truth. So for starters, I can recommend that you don’t look for a denomination or group that makes you feel comfortable with what you believe; instead, strive for objective fact and truth. Thinking of the matter in this persepective, you will hopefully be much more open to the Catholic Faith.”

“Religion often becomes almost a consumer product. People choose what they like, and some are even able to make a profit from it. But religion sought on a ‘do-it-yourself’ basis cannot ultimately help us. It may be comfortable, but at times of crisis we are left to ourselves.”

*—August 21 (homily at World Youth Day Mass at Marienfeld Esplanade) *

 

[kujo313]

“ReflectHim]
not anti- catholic, but I don’t believe it’s the church founded by Jesus Christ, nor do i agree with some of their “rules.” I know others that follow scripture closer than the catholic church. i guess i don’t agree with their interpretation of the Bible.”

As your brother in Christ, I would strongly urge you to read-up on what body/organization actually compiled Sacred Scripture? Hmmm. Yes, I know, it can be hard to swallow one’s pride. And please, trust that I am not trying to belittle you because of where you are in your own journey, I have been there myself. Just let me quote something mlcampbell wrote in another forum.
“I think that a lot of people these days have the notion in their heads that, “when I look for a community or denomination to become a part of, I want one that fits the personal beliefs and values that I already have.” This arises from the fact that a lot of times people never think to ask, “are theses beliefs and values that I hold to, truely what Jesus wants me to believe?” There is so much emphasis placed on what “I think Jesus is,” and not enough real, genuine inquiry into what Jesus actually is. In other words, there is often no serious endeavor to discover the truth. So for starters, I can recommend that you don’t look for a denomination or group that makes you feel comfortable with what you believe; instead, strive for objective fact and truth. Thinking of the matter in this persepective, you will hopefully be much more open to the Catholic Faith.”

So, in summary, when one chooses to search for the truth objectively, it becomes difficult to see any other option more viable than Catholicism. This objective truth can be realized through a basic study of history, an intellectual look at Sacred Scripture, a humbly-open approach to the validity of Sacred Tradition, and prayer.
God’s blessings be with you. Open your heart and mind to Christ’s intentions, and the worst thing that could happen would be a newfound respect for Catholicism.

I NEVER want to belong to a church that I can relate to or feel comfortable in. I want to know that I am a sinner just as ALL have sinned and falled short of the Glory of the Lord. I want to know that Jesus lived a sinless life and died for my sins so that I may be right with God if I accept His sacrifice.

The church I belong to does NOT have a parton saint for this and for that. We pray to God, through the Holy Spirit, in the name of Jesus.
As for Christ’s intentions, did you not read in Luke when a woman said “blessed is the womb who bore you…”, Jesus said, “Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”
Blessed is Mary, Mark, Luke, John, Matthew, Paul, Timothy, and others because they heard the word of God and obeyed. Not one is put ahead of the other. We will all sit beside Jesus on His throne (Rev 3).

 

[Eden]

kujo313:

IAs for Christ’s intentions, did you not read in Luke when a woman said “blessed is the womb who bore you…”, Jesus said, “Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”

You are misinterpreting that passage which I have already pointed out. Jesus is exalting Mary by emphasizing her obedience to God’s word as being more critical than her biological role of mother. In other words, she is to be honored because she said “Yes” to God. In other words, He is saying, “No. My mother is not just a woman who gave birth to me. She was obedient to God.” This affirms Luke 1:48.

 

[kujo313]

Eden:

The Sacraments, the intercession of Mary and the saints, the Eucharist, the Rosary, the Mass, the Bible: all of these things are a means to draw us closer to Christ.

You seem to think they distract us from Christ but quite the contrary. They enhance our relationship with Him. He is the center of the faith. The Church is the Bride of Christ.

You want to know what draws ME closer to Christ?

The trees: they reach upwards towards Heaven.
The sun: it’s a miracle it don’t burn us up.
The stars: He calls them by name.
The Earth: perfect for life. Only God can make it, not a big bang.
It tilts back and forth to give each hemisphere summer and winter.
It recycles water through vapor, clouds and rain.
It’s at the right distance from the sun.
It had just the right amount of oxygen and stuff to keep life.
It has trees that produce oxygen, for us to breathe.

Our bodies:
All the organs in us cannot come from by accident or by chance.

The horn symbol on my steering wheel: Maybe TODAY we will hear the trumpets sound and see Jesus returning!
Cemeteries: imagining graves opening and bodies rising.
Tithing: God’s math: 90% > 100%

Shall I continue?