To Protestants: Why aren't you Catholic?

[Huguenot]

J’ai etudie a l’Universite Americaine de Paris il y dix ans. Bonjour France! BTW, I found out I have a Huguenot ancestor who went from Normandy to Canterbury to Southern Ireland in the 1600s. He was a Quaker and a weaver by profession.

I didn’t either. But believers cited the Bible Code as being one of the reasons he left the Catholic Church earlier in this thread.
[/quote]

It’s amazing the number of people who speak French on this forum !!!

What does BTW mean ???

 

[Eden]

Huguenot:

It’s amazing the number of people who speak French on this forum !!!

What does BTW mean ???

BTW= By the way

 

[St.Eric]

Huguenot:

I didn’t say there was an age limit, I said you have to be a believer to be baptized …
Who was St. Ignatius of Antioch speaking about when he said “they will perish in their arguments” ??? don’t tell me there were already Protestants at the time

He was talking about the heretics who dissented with the pricnicples of the church and were attempting to retard the true faith. From the begininng Satan has tried his best to bring down the church. But, as Christ promised, Satan will not prevail!

 

[DARichards]

Doreen:

Earlier DA, you mentioned that God is not restrained by the same concept of time as we are. I agree with you totally.

See…as in The Chronicles of Narnia…time “outside the wardrobe” and time “within” are different; so those saints who are “asleep in Christ” won’t notice they’ve been asleep, (Jesus said even to the repentant sinner on the cross “Today, you will be with me in paradise.”) Notice when you sleep, time seems to stand still? This is a beautiful gift of the Lord’s to show us how HIS time works.

With all due respect Doreen, this is simply a large assumption on your part. This concept in mentioned nowhere in Scripture and is not taught by any of the Church Fathers (even prior to the Reformation when we were all Catholic).

Not only this, but the Chronicles (as wonderful of an analogy as they are, are just that…an analogy. We should not and cannot base our theology on a novel…no matter how wonderful it is…

Doreen:

There are other quotes that have been posted in reference to Purgatory, and again, I believe this subject is suited for another thread, but I do believe that Eden has already posted on response to this. In Revelation, John states that there are twenty and four elders lifting up to Jesus the prayers of the Saints. Luke also records the story of Lazurus and the rich man. The rich man was somewhere, and so was Lazurus. My main concern here is not the issue of Purgatory, but your belief that we are all in some sleep until the return of Christ. This item goes completely against all historical teachings of the Orthodox Christian Church. If you have proof to show otherwise, please let me know. Again, that may not belong on this thread.

Doreen:

If you have truly emptied yourself of self, and before God you have not only confessed, but also repented (turned away from with utter hatred for it) your sin, and you have cried out from the depths of a pure heart, “Dear God, come to me and show me your ways, O’Lord!” And you have asked Jesus to be your Savior and King, and you have a sincere desire to be led by the Holy Spirit, and you ask:
“Holy Spirit, FALL ON ME! Change me, for I never want to be t he same again!” And then you prayerfully read His word…I promise you as He promises, “He will not leave you as an orphan.”

There is ONE voice to follow. And that voice will lead you into all truth.

If you are hanging on to any aspect of “religion” that tells you that you can have it both ways…keep on sinning, and still have the Spirit (READ 1 JOHN) … then you are being led by lies. (I am not saying that all Catholics are duped…but I will be bold and say that many are missing out on the conviction of the Spirit that will “keep us from stumbling”…

They will tell you, that is just “Doreen’s interpretation”…I will tell you SEEK FIRST (not the “church”) but the Kingdom of God, and His righteousness (no more sin) and all these things will be added unto YOU!"

God Bless You, DA.
D.

My final question for now would be to you, what happened to all the Christians prior to the Reformation and the “Charismatic Renewal.” Did they just miss out? Did they have a relationship with Christ? Were they "missing out of the conviction of the Spirit? Are we better and more deserving of these gifts than they were?

 

[DILCIA]

I’m an English Catholic because my father was even though my mother was Anglican. Where I live I would say that most people are disinterested in any religion. The christians around here stick together for the most part. We have a Lent get together to discuss common topics.Only about 9% of the population go to church on Sundays and nobody I know has tried to change anyones denomination.
I agree with St Francis of Assisi who said we should preach the gospel and use words if neccessary. I know the Protestants I’ve met don’t agree with this.
I think that they don’t become Catholic because they have met some or know some that don’t live up to their faith ie they are sinners as we all are. That is one reason. The people at our local parish who become Catholic do because of the example of a Catholic they know. They say I want that. I understand why the people who left the Catholic church did because I went to Catholic schools ( in England you don’t have to pay to go to them) etc but it left me untouched as I drifted away.
Actually it didn’t leave me untouched because I turned to Jesus and I have to say that going to that first confession after finding Him was the closest think to being in heaven.
Sorry I’ve rambled on a bit but your thread gripped me.
God bless all of you.

 

[believers]

Eden:

Where in the Bible does Jesus tell us we do not need the Church? Can you show me where He tells us we will be given the Bible and all Christians will create their own “do-it-yourself” religion? He doesn’t. He says He will build His Church and He builds it on Peter. The relativist idea that all personal opinions and self-created religions are “equal” and should not be judged is from the Great Deceiver.

Okay, I’ve already explained why I am no longer Catholic. My issue with the Catechism’s version of the Ten Commandments is final. The RCC failed to teach or even display the correct version. The CCC doctrine no longer has any credibility with me.

I know this has always been a very touchy subject for Catholics and Non-Catholics so I will quote from scripture.

Matthew 16:13-18
13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippe, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?
14 So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16 And Simon Peter answered and said to him “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

Mat 7:21-23 (I Never Knew You)
21 “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”

22 “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils?
and in thy name done many wonderful works?”

23 "And then I will declare to them, “I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessess!”

(Build on the Rock)
Matthew 7:24-27
24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:
25 "and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house: and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock
26 "Now everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will like a foolish man who built his house on the sand:
27 “and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house: and it fell. And great was its fall.”

Mathew 22:36-38 Jesus was asked…

36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.”
38 This is the first and great commandment"

Exodus 20:5 (from the Commandments)
For I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth
generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Matthew 15:8
8 "These people draw near to Me (Jesus) with their mouth, An honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.

9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctines the Comandments of men."

Matthew 19:16
16 Now behold, one came and said to Jesus, “Good Techer, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to hem, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the Commandments."

 

[Eden]

So, you agree the Bible Code was a hoax and was not a good reason to leave the Church?

 

[believers]

Eden:

So, you agree the Bible Code was a hoax and was not a good reason to leave the Church?

Eden, For the record, I did not leave the church because of the Bible Code. I left because I found the full/original/unedited/untouched list of commandments in the Hebrew Bible (original text) and also in the King James Version of the Bible. There is a discrepancy in the list taught in CCD.

 

[Eden]

My belief changed in the wake of my home being hit by hurricane Katrina. I lived in New Orleans and saw the destruction. It was during that time** I became facinated with the “Bible Code.”** I started transliterating words into Hebrew and then found myself exploring the Hebrew Bible. This lead me to the original Commandments as God gave them to Moses.

Since the “Bible Code” was involved in your decision to leave the Church, I am asking if you now believe it was a hoax? I gave you a link much earlier in the thread which illustrated that “Moby Dick” predicted assassinations and the death of Princess Diana. But I never got a response to the hoax conclusion and I’m asking your thoughts on this.

 

[Eden]

I assume when you were transliterating from Hebrew, you transliterated all fourteen imperative statements? Are you claiming that historically the Jews have *not *grouped “You shall have no other gods before me” (Ex. 20:3) and “You shall not make for yourself a graven image” (Ex. 20:4) together just the Catholic Church?

Here is an article that disagrees with your transliteration:

Hiding the Second Commandment?

Another charge sometimes made by Protestants is that the Catholic Church “hides” the second commandment. This is because in Catholic catechisms, the first commandment is often listed as “You shall have no other gods before me” (Ex. 20:3), and the second is listed as “You shall not take the name of the Lord in vain.” (Ex. 20:7). From this, it is argued that Catholics have deleted the prohibition of idolatry to justify their use of religious statues. But this is false. Catholics simply group the commandments differently from most Protestants.

In Exodus 20:2–17, which gives the Ten Commandments, there are actually fourteen imperative statements. To arrive at Ten Commandments, some statements have to be grouped together, and there is more than one way of doing this. Since, in the ancient world, polytheism and idolatry were always united—idolatry being the outward expression of polytheism—**the historic Jewish numbering of the Ten Commandments has always grouped together the imperatives “You shall have no other gods before me” (Ex. 20:3) and “You shall not make for yourself a graven image” (Ex. 20:4). The historic Catholic numbering follows the Jewish numbering on this point, as does the historic Lutheran numbering. Martin Luther recognized that the imperatives against polytheism and idolatry are two parts of a single command. **

Jews and Christians abbreviate the commandments so that they can be remembered using a summary, ten-point formula. For example, Jews, Catholics, and Protestants typically summarize the Sabbath commandment as, “Remember the Sabbath to keep it holy,” though the commandment’s actual text takes four verses (Ex. 20:8–11).

When the prohibition of polytheism/idolatry is summarized, Jews, Catholics, and Lutherans abbreviate it as “You shall have no other gods before me.” This is no attempt to “hide” the idolatry prohibition (Jews and Lutherans don’t even use statues of saints and angels). It is to make learning the Ten Commandments easier.

The Catholic Church is not dogmatic about how the Ten Commandments are to be numbered, however. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says, “The division and numbering of the Commandments have varied in the course of history. The present catechism follows the division of the Commandments established by Augustine, which has become traditional in the Catholic Church. It is also that of the Lutheran confession. The Greek Fathers worked out a slightly different division, which is found in the Orthodox Churches and Reformed communities” (CCC 2066).

catholic.com/library/do_catholics_worship_statues.asp

 

[believers]

Eden:

Since the “Bible Code” was involved in your decision to leave the Church, I am asking if you now believe it was a hoax? I gave you a link much earlier in the thread which illustrated that “Moby Dick” predicted assassinations and the death of Princess Diana. But I never got a response to the hoax conclusion and I’m asking your thoughts on this.

Eden, You must first understand that every Bible version/translation is derived from the Hebrew version of the Bible. In other words, if you could read Hebrew, you’d be able to read the Bible in it’s original form. If there is a code in the Hebrew Bible, then it was definitely put there by God and could not be a hoax.
There’s no way Satan could have had any influence on the Torah (First 5 books of the Bible), Tanach (Old Testament) or the New Testament. I’m not disputing the that there may be a code in Moby Dick too. There could be but that doesn’t matter. It’s not the Word of God. I have friends who have found things that are interesting though. Last year 2005, I knew that something dealing with Nuclear activities was going to happen on Jan 10, 2006. Well, on this date, Iran broke the seals on its Nuclear facility which got the world’s attention.

 

[Eden]

believers:

Eden, You must first understand that every Bible version/translation is derived from the Hebrew version of the Bible. In other words, if you could read Hebrew, you’d be able to read the Bible in it’s original form. If there is a code in the Hebrew Bible, then it was definitely put there by God and could not be a hoax.
There’s no way Satan could have had any influence on the Torah (First 5 books of the Bible), Tanach (Old Testament) or the New Testament. I’m not disputing the that there may be a code in Moby Dick too. There could be but that doesn’t matter. It’s not the Word of God. I have friends who have found things that are interesting though. Last year 2005, I knew that something dealing with Nuclear activities was going to happen on Jan 10, 2006. Well, on this date, Iran broke the seals on its Nuclear facility which got the world’s attention.

So, the answer is no, you do not believe the Bible Code is a hoax?

 

[believers]

I understand what you’re saying. However, I disagree with that article. I don’t know how that person supports their claims. Now, myself as a born-again Christian can tell you that the Bible is all we go by. In fact, many people (protestants) carry their bibles with them. We don’t have any doctrines outside of the Bible like the CCC. I don’t think I’m going too far on a limb by saying that’s primarily the difference between Catholics and Protestants. If any Protestant can correct me, please do so.

 

[Eden]

believers:

Eden, You must first understand that every Bible version/translation is derived from the Hebrew version of the Bible. In other words, if you could read Hebrew, you’d be able to read the Bible in it’s original form. If there is a code in the Hebrew Bible, then it was definitely put there by God and could not be a hoax.

Major Bible scholars ignore the code because, they note, no one has a letter-by-letter version of the Bible as originally written. The oldest surviving manuscripts include slight variations, any of which would throw off computer test results.

Source:

themodernreligion.com/comparative/christ/bible_code.htm

 

[believers]

Eden:

So, the answer is no, you do not believe the Bible Code is a hoax?

Okay, how’s this… I believe something could be there but I don’t know for sure. If there’s a code, it’s hidden very well.

 

[Eden]

believers:

I understand what you’re saying. However, I disagree with that article. I don’t know how that person supports their claims. Now, myself as a born-again Christian can tell you that the Bible is all we go by. In fact, many people (protestants) carry their bibles with them. We don’t have any doctrines outside of the Bible like the CCC. I don’t think I’m going too far on a limb by saying that’s primarily the difference between Catholics and Protestants. If any Protestant can correct me, please do so.

The Protestant belief in Sola Scriptura (Bible Alone) was not a Christian belief until the 16th century. The idea of “Bible Only” is the invention of Martin Luther, not God. The Church has always taught through oral tradition since 33 A.D. When the Canon was set at the Councils of Carthage and Hippo at the end of the 4th century, the Church had a consistent Canon which Luther rearranged 1100 years later. You are using a Bible that reflects Luther’s idea of how the Bible should be arranged.

 

[believers]

Eden:

Major Bible scholars ignore the code because, they note, no one has a letter-by-letter version of the Bible as originally written. The oldest surviving manuscripts include slight variations, any of which would throw off computer test results.

Source:

themodernreligion.com/comparative/christ/bible_code.htm

If I’m not mistaken, Michael Drosnin used the Dead Sea Scrolls. Apprarently, these were untouched copies of the Torah.

 

[Eden]

believers:

Okay, how’s this… I believe something could be there but I don’t know for sure. If there’s a code, it’s hidden very well.

Given this uncertainty, I don’t see how the Bible Code could be named as a justifiable impetus for leaving the Church. We’ve had lots of ex-Catholics who are now Evangelicals here before but never has anyone else mentioned the Bible Code as part of their story.

 

[St.Eric]

believers:

Eden, For the record, I did not leave the church because of the Bible Code. I left because I found the full/original/unedited/untouched list of commandments in the Hebrew Bible (original text) and also in the King James Version of the Bible. There is a discrepancy in the list taught in CCD.

Based on your posts, shouldn’t you become a Messianic Jew?

 

[Eden]

Are you aware that Michael Drosnin states that he does not believe in religion or God?