To Protestants: Why aren't you Catholic?

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Eden:
Rev. 12:1 - Mary, the “woman,” is crowned with twelve stars. She is Queen of heaven and earth and the Mother of the Church.

scripturecatholic.com
Eden, Now that’s interesting. I just looked up Revelations 12:1 and it says…

Rev. 12:1
“Now, a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars.”

Can you give me the link on scripturecatholic.com?
 
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believers:
Eden, We’re definitely not going to agree but that’s ok. I believe only in the Word of God now. As stated earlier, the Roman Catholic church has somehow found the authority to do away with one of the commandments in its official teachings. That you cannot deny.
Not only can Eden deny it, I can deny it, and I’m not even RC.

There was a debate in the early Church as to the numbering of the Commandments. The Orthodox Church wound up numbering them one way, and the Catholic Church numbered them another way. At the Reformation the Reformed (but not the Lutherans) began numbering the Commandments in the Orthodox way.

That’s the long and short of it. The Commandments do not come numbered in the Bible, you know. Sure, I think the Orthodox/Protestant method makes more sense than the Catholic/Lutheran method. But the Catholic and Lutherans are not “getting rid of a Commandment.” It’s still there, as part of the First Commandment.

Edwin
 
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Contarini:
Not only can Eden deny it, I can deny it, and I’m not even RC.

There was a debate in the early Church as to the numbering of the Commandments. The Orthodox Church wound up numbering them one way, and the Catholic Church numbered them another way. At the Reformation the Reformed (but not the Lutherans) began numbering the Commandments in the Orthodox way.

That’s the long and short of it. The Commandments do not come numbered in the Bible, you know. Sure, I think the Orthodox/Protestant method makes more sense than the Catholic/Lutheran method. But the Catholic and Lutherans are not “getting rid of a Commandment.” It’s still there, as part of the First Commandment.

Edwin
I mean no respect but I’d rather not go thru this again. Why don’t you go directly to the source of the Roman Catholic Church. Here’s a convenient link Traditional Catechetical Formula . If you’re not Catholic, then how would you know?
 
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believers:
Eden, Now that’s interesting. I just looked up Revelations 12:1 and it says…

Rev. 12:1
“Now, a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars.”

Can you give me the link on scripturecatholic.com?
Yes, it is scripturecatholic.com

The section is “The Virgin Mary”.
 
Gen. 3:15 - we see from the very beginning that God gives Mary a unique role in salvation history. God says “I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed.” This refers to Jesus (the “emnity”) and Mary (the “woman”). The phrase “her seed” (spermatos) is not seen elsewhere in Scripture.

Eden, I don’t think it’s fair to only quote 1 verse. You need the entire verse to understand this. God was talking to Adam & Eve… How do you get Mary in any of these verses?

Gen 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where [art] thou?

Gen 3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I [was] naked; and I hid myself.

Gen 3:11 And he said, Who told thee that thou [wast] naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

Gen 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest [to be] with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

Gen 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What [is] this [that] thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity (Deep-seated, often mutual hatred) between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed [is] the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life;
 
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believers:
I mean no respect but I’d rather not go thru this again. Why don’t you go directly to the source of the Roman Catholic Church. Here’s a convenient link Traditional Catechetical Formula . If you’re not Catholic, then how would you know?
You stated your 10 Commandments are the same as that of the Jews. Are you sure about that?
 
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believers:
Eden, I don’t think it’s fair to only quote 1 verse. You need the entire verse to understand this. God was talking to Adam & Eve… How do you get Mary in any of these verses?
Are you being serious? You don’t understand the symbolism? Do you realize that the New Testament is the fulfillment of the Old Testament?
 
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Eden:
You stated your 10 Commandments are the same as that of the Jews. Are you sure about that?
Since I’m not Jewish, I can only assume that they go by the Hebrew version. I don’t see why they would alter God’s words. So my guess is yes.
 
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believers:
Since I’m not Jewish, I can only assume that they go by the Hebrew version. I don’t see why they would alter God’s words. So my guess is yes.
You seem to think that the 10 Commandments are derived from a point by point list. The Commandments are derived from 14 directives in the Old Testament.

I gave you this article earlier but:

**the historic Jewish numbering of the Ten Commandments has always grouped together the imperatives “You shall have no other gods before me” (Ex. 20:3) and “You shall not make for yourself a graven image” (Ex. 20:4). The historic Catholic numbering follows the Jewish numbering on this point, as does the historic Lutheran numbering. Martin Luther recognized that the imperatives against polytheism and idolatry are two parts of a single command. **

catholic.com/library/do_catholics_worship_statues.asp
 
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Eden:
Are you being serious? You don’t understand the symbolism? Do you realize that the New Testament is the fulfillment of the Old Testament?
This refers to Jesus (the “emnity”) and Mary (the “woman”). The phrase “her seed” (spermatos) is not seen elsewhere in Scripture.

Bare with me now… so your saying enmity refers to Jesus in the verse?

I just went to dictionary.com and looked up the word enmity. That’s an aweful definition.

Here are some synonyms for emnity… hostility, antagonism, animosity, rancor, antipathy, animus

I got this from dictionary.com
 
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kujo313:
Woa! My first post!

“Hold fast to the ‘Traditions’ that we gave you, whether through the written word or through the spoken word.”

Exactly WHAT were those “traditions”?

The tradition of Mary as the Mother of God started in the Council of Chaicedon in A.D. 451. It was at this council that Mary was given the title Theotokos (“God-bearer” or “mother of God”).

Since Christ is God and Mary gave birth to Jesus, therefore, Mary is the “Mother of God”.

That would conclude the persons in the Godhead need a mother. That is impossible seeing that they always is, was, and shall be.
In John chapter 1, we learn that Jesus was with God and was God in the very beginning (of time). When Jesus was asked in John 8: 57 "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

Jesus replied, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

Abraham was before Mary.

The Son, who in time and space became united to a human nature in the virgin’s womb, looked to Mary as mother with respect to His manhood, NOT His Godhood.

“Worship” - (according to Dictionary.com)

“The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.
The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed.”

“Rosary” - (according to Dictionary.com)

“A form of devotion to the Virgin Mary, chiefly consisting of three sets of five decades each of the Hail Mary, each decade preceded by the Lord’s Prayer and ending with a doxology.”

Maybe you might not call it “worship” or “devotion”, but it is.

I’d rather follow Jesus, (Luke 11: 27-28)
Code:
27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!”
28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

Going on with “tradition”, there are no traditions of worshipping Mary until hundreds of years later. It’s a natural human tendency to lift the mother higher than the son, but Jesus seemed to go out of his way to down-play it; even calling her “woman”. (John 2:1-4; 19:26)
It was not customary in those days for a Jewish son to call his mother “woman”.

Scripture, as well as the earliest “traditions” that was taking place DURING the time that Paul wrote his letters does NOT place Mary as “The Mother of God” or “Theotokos”.

Sure, Mary was to be “Blessed amongst women” because of the role that she was elected to play as mentioned in Old Testament prophecies:

(Isaiah 7:14)
“Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.”

Catholic “tradition” lifts her to a higher level, a tradition that was not in place when Paul told the believers about keeping traditions. Check the letters of Paul, he did not lift Mary to any level.

You simply cannot make up traditions and refer to what Paul said.

I urge you to read “From Lowly Handmaid to Queen of Heaven: The Mary of Roman Catholicism.”
There is no need to define a practice that is universally accepted as truth. Only when suffcient numbers of dissenters arrive is it necessary to define. For 451 years, everyone took for granted that Mary was the Mother of God.

The definintion of Worship above is correct in the archaic sense. Kings and Queens were often called “your Worshhip.” In the old sense of the word- nothing wrong with worshipping, i.e., venerating MAry and the Saints.

In the modern vernacular, worshipping is not used in that sense. In the modern sense, only God is worthy of worship and MAry and the Saints are worthy of our devotion and veneration. Nothing wrong with that!
 
My Bible doesn’t number them. They are just listed as verses. I’m suppose the Jewish have the same thing but in Hebrew. My Bible is just the English translation.
 
“all generations shall call me belessed…” That is a pretty big claim. Alas, nowhere or no one in the bible makes a claim even close to that other than God and Christ of course. No human creature can make that claim. Paul says he himself is a a mere servant. Mary herself says all generations will call her blessed. Think about it.
 
St.Eric said:
“all generations shall call me belessed…” That is a pretty big claim. Alas, nowhere or no one in the bible makes a claim even close to that other than God and Christ of course. No human creature can make that claim. Paul says he himself is a a mere servant. Mary herself says all generations will call her blessed. Think about it.

Mary is BLESSED. Of course. I think that I would feel immensely blessed if God chose me out of every woman on earth to bare His Son, Savior of the World. Who denies that she was blessed? She got to care and talk to Jesus as He was growing. She got to see God in action as a child and as a man. She got to know God on a personal level that no one else can. But she also said that she needed a savior.
 
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believers:
My Bible doesn’t number them. They are just listed as verses. I’m suppose the Jewish have the same thing but in Hebrew. My Bible is just the English translation.
Please refer to posts #400 and #401.
 
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Singinbeauty:
But she also said that she needed a savior.
Did you think Catholic teaching states that she did* not* need a savior? This is untrue! The Church has never taught that she did not need a savior!
 
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Eden:
Did you think Catholic teaching states that she did* not* need a savior? This is untrue! The Church has never taught that she did not need a savior!
Because this is a completely different thought process than what the OP is I think another thread should be started… But for now I think, since there are no protestants stating why they aren’t catholic, I will now step away from this thread… 🙂
 
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