To Quote LDS Prophets....

[Caprica]

Sorry, it’s not a “Catholic def” of what a prophet is, but rather, the Biblical one. You can ignoratio elenchi on about those “10 truely evil popes”, and I can point out false analogy 6 days a week, and twice on Sunday.

Can you please cite the Biblical verses that show that prophets are always speaking the word of God, and have foresight in everything, and therefore are not allowed to be human?

Unfortunately, the standard that LDS critics attempt to hold our prophets to is not a standard that is based on the Biblical portrayal of prophets.

 

[lax16]

You are bringing your Catholic def of what a prophet should be and applying to what the LDS label an expect from our leaders.

I’m confident they don’t meet your standards but please don’t tell us what we believe,
or … (I’ll have to ask about the 10 truely evil popes in history, an how that meshes with infallibility)

Please provide an LDS definition of a prophet. I have provided (before) what is available on lds websites but perhaps there is a better one.

Please feel free to bring up anything you want about popes - since we do not believe in continuing revelation, it doesn’t matter anyway!

 

[lax16]

Can you please cite the Biblical verses that show that prophets are always speaking the word of God, and have foresight in everything, and therefore are not allowed to be human?

Unfortunately, the standard that LDS critics attempt to hold our prophets to is not a standard that is based on the Biblical portrayal of prophets.

Can you provide Biblical verses to support the LDS **definition **of a prophet?

Definition - not examples of prophets making mistakes, please. Official LDS teaching on the definition of prophet.

 

[Caprica]

Can you provide Biblical verses to support the LDS **definition **of a prophet?

Definition - not examples of prophets making mistakes, please. Official LDS teaching on the definition of prophet.

scriptures.lds.org/en/gs/p/65
scriptures.lds.org/en/gs/p/64
eom.byu.edu/index.php/Prophet

Please answer my question as well.

Can you please cite the Biblical verses that show that prophets are always speaking the word of God, and have foresight in everything, and therefore are not allowed to be human?

Unfortunately, the standard that LDS critics attempt to hold our prophets to is not a standard that is based on the Biblical portrayal of prophets.

 

[SirThomasMore]

Actually there are much better examples than this one of Senior Church leaders exhibiting bad judgment or even outright sinning!!!

As every LDS poster here has stated in every thread it has been raised - our leaders our normal guys like the rest of us. They are not jacked in to the Holy Ghost 24/7 uttering words that are the breathe of God

You are bringing your Catholic def of what a prophet should be and applying to what the LDS label an expect from our leaders.

I’m confident they don’t meet your standards but please don’t tell us what we believe,
or … (I’ll have to ask about the 10 truely evil popes in history, an how that meshes with infallibility)

The problem is, your prophets speak to God. God allegedly speaks to them. That leaves very little room for error. It means either:

1. God has no clue or
2. Your prophets don;t really speak directly to God.

 

[Caprica]

The problem is, your prophets speak to God. God allegedly speaks to them. That leaves very little room for error. It means either:

1. God has no clue or
2. Your prophets don;t really speak directly to God.

Again: Critics of LDS prophets hold our prophets to unbiblical standards, standards that we Latter-day Saints do not hold our own leaders to. What exactly do you mean by “your prophets speak to God. God allegedly speaks to them.” ? About what? As already mentioned numerous times, LDS do not believe that prophets are always speaking the word of God, or have foreknowledge into everything. Nor did the Biblical prophets. God reveals His will to the prophets when He desires to, and He allows His prophets to be human, not controlled robots.

 

[scipio337]

Again: Critics of LDS prophets hold our prophets to unbiblical standards, standards that we Latter-day Saints do not hold our own leaders to. What exactly do you mean by “your prophets speak to God. God allegedly speaks to them.” ? About what? As already mentioned numerous times, LDS do not believe that prophets are always speaking the word of God, or have foreknowledge into everything. Nor did the Biblical prophets. God reveals His will to the prophets when He desires to, and He allows His prophets to be human, not controlled robots.

Well, one would merely have to point to the “prophesies” of JS that never came to pass to point out there is a flow in the LDS claims to “prophecy” and Apostolic Succession, but it’s too early in the day for those kind of intellectual gymnastics we’ll see as a defense.

 

[SirThomasMore]

Again

: Critics of LDS prophets hold our prophets to unbiblical standards, standards

 

[Caprica]

Well, one would merely have to point to the “prophesies” of JS that never came to pass to point out there is a flow in the LDS claims to “prophecy” and Apostolic Succession, but it’s too early in the day for those kind of intellectual gymnastics we’ll see as a defense.

Please don’t forget this question, which I would appreciate an answer to:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6963531&postcount=81

 

[Caprica]

most of your standards are unbilblical.

This is a deflection, and does not address the point. Critics hold LDS prophets to a standard of “prophet” that is not Biblically based, and the Biblical prophets do not meet the same criteria.

What I mean is, your prophets allegedly speak to God and God speaks to them. When they do that, they should not be spouting what they have spouted. It means they either really do not talk to God or God is wrong.

This is a false dilemma. When we read the Bible, we see that Biblical prophets are not regarded as always infallible, nor were they impeccable. Also, prophets are allowed to be human and have their opinions, even on theological issues, since they are not always “hooked up to the Spirit”, nor has God revealed everything in existence to prophets (which is clear in Latter-day Saint belief that God has more to reveal, i.e. continuing revelation). So when you say that LDS prophets speak to God and God speaks to them, what exactly are they speaking about? That’s the issue that you ignore.

Perhaps you can answer this question, which has yet to be answered:

“Can you please cite the Biblical verses that show that prophets are always speaking the word of God, and have foresight in everything, and therefore are not allowed to be human?”

We all know that God is not wrong, so it means your prophets are frauds

No it doesn’t, because you’ve set up a straw man and a false dilemma.

 

[SirThomasMore]

This is a deflection, and does not address the point.

 

[Caprica]

It was responding to a comment you made.

The comment of mine to which you were responding to was-“Critics of LDS prophets hold our prophets to unbiblical standards, standards”. My comment wasn’t about Latter-day Saint standards, but that the standards of critics are unbiblical on this issue. You therefore did not address my comment, and deflected.

I am not holding your “prophets” to a Biblical Standard. Not at all. I am holding them to a logical standard. When one talks to God as your “prophets” claim, they shoud not be coming out with the stuff they come out with, they should be so easily fooled as with Mark Hoffman, and they should not come up with such awful doctrine.

Thank you for showing that you are not basing your criticism on anything Biblical. If you did, you would see that Biblical prophets do not meet the same criteria that you attempt to hold Latter-day Saint prophets to. Prophets, whether LDS or Biblical, are humans, and are therefore not infallible always, nor are they impeccable. They are not controlled robots, and can have their opinions and views. Latter-day Saints have never believed that God has revealed everything in existence to His prophets, and therefore your criticism fails.

 

[SirThomasMore]

The comment of mine to which you were responding to was

 

[Caprica]

If that is how you wish to view it, fine. You talked about your prophets held to unblical standards, I agreed that most of what your church stands for is unbiblical standards. It was not a deflection, it was an observation

Of course it was a deflection, since it did not address the quote to which you were responding to. Your “observation” also had nothing to do with the issue, and was merely poisoning the well.

Actually, it doesn’t. You try to use the Bible to support you when it is helpful, then when it doesn;t, you claim it is not translated correctly. It is an LDS double standard that does not speak well for you.

This is merely more poisoning the well and does not address the issue. Again.

But let us address your little issue. First, you are using the Bible to get your Biblical standard. Fine. I don;t. I am using a logical standard. If someone is talking with God, they oughta not be coming up with the horrible stuff your prophets come up with. The Biblical approach is faulty and serves no purpose. It is a weak fall-back position for Mormons. You can’t use the Biblical Approach to judge LDS Prophets. Here is why.

No it is not a “weak fall-back position”. LDS regard our prophets as being prophets just like the Biblical ones. Therefore, it is completely logical to hold them to the same standards. The problem with your argument, which you seem to still not realize, is that your critiques of Latter-day Saint prophets, or the standard to which you hold them to, is a standard that the Biblical prophets do not meet either, so you condemn them as well, without even knowing it. Biblical prophets also talked with God, and yet they, like LDS prophets, were still humans, with their own views and opinions, and were not God-controlled robots.

1. The Biblical prophets you wish to use as your example lived thousands of years ago.

LDS prophets are contemporary.

And what does that have to do with anything?

1. The Biblical prophets you wish to use as your example lived in the Middle East in a vastly different culture from us.

The LDS prophets lived in the USA in an almost identical culture as us.

And what does that have to do with anything? You need to flesh out what exactly you’re trying to say.

1. The Biblical prophets you wish to use as your example spoke Hebrew and their words have been translated over and over till now.

The LDS prophets spoke English, just like us.

Okay? Is there a problem with translation now?

1. The Biblical prophets you wish to use as your example are only available to us mostly heresay…what they said was reported. We do not know if it was written word-for word. Or it was written long after the fact, again, likely not a direct quote.

So…the Bible is not inerrant? You do realize what you’re saying right? You’re implying that the Biblical record may not be faithful, and yet you want to accuse LDS of disregarding the Bible when it is convenient, which is what you’re doing now.

The LDS prophets were quoted as they spoke and the quotes were written down, or preserved by tape and/or video.

So, the differences in how we arrive at the quotes from each is so vastly different that they cannot be compared.

See above.

So, we must use the logical test. If someone is talking to God and God is talking to that person, they will not get who God is wrong, they will not come up with the incredibly unholy stuff that LDS prophets have spouted, and they will not get prophesies so horribly wrong.

Nope, your “logical test” still fails, because the Biblical prophets also talked to God and God talked to them, yet now you want to set the Bible aside by claiming that it was a different culture, time, and may not have been recorded correctly. You do exactly what you accuse LDS of doing.

 

[SirThomasMore]

Of course it was a deflection, since it did not address the quote to which you were responding to. Your “observation” also had nothing to do with the issue, and was merely poisoning the well.

 

[Caprica]

I am sorry truth hurts you

Likewise.

That is horribly weak. Fine. Tell you what…you tell me the word for word quote from Moses on any given issue. You can’t. You can say what the Bible said he said, but we have no way of knowing what the exact quote was. We CAN however, give the EXACT quote from BY on Adam/God. Now, I find it incredibly sad that you cannot see the difference. But, you inability to provess this makes it easier to understand why you are still LDS

Do you not see what you’re saying? You’re implying that Moses perhaps did not really say what the Bible says he said. You’re doing exactly what you accuse LDS of doing. You’re trying to doubt the Bible when it is convenient.

I can see this is over your head. I apologize.

So you cannot respond. As expected, since it had nothing to do with the argument.

I am. See, when professionals make points, they use bullets to set it up then explain. I had thought you would understand. I apologize.

So you cannot respond. As expected, since it had nothing to do with the argument. Usually when professionals are asked to clarify, they do so.

Is there? Did I say that? Had you served a foreign mission like I did, you would know that, when translating, not every word has a really good translation into the language you are translating into. Oh, it translates, but may not have the same meaning. If you served a foreign mission like I did, then shame on you for playing dumb!

Obviously everyone knows this, whether they served a foreign mission or not. The point is that you’re now attempting to cast doubt on the Biblical record, when it is convenient for you, as you say LDS do. Since you have not clarified your argument, I can only assume that you think the humanness of the Biblical prophets (which is what I"ve been addressing, I don’t know about you) is due to culture, translation issues, etc. Anyone familiar with the Bible knows that this is just smoke and mirrors.

Especially when some of us are actually familiar with Biblical Greek and Hebrew.

Nice deflection from my point. I do not blame you…it was a great point. Anyway, I do not believe the doctrine of the Bible is in error. I do believe that things do not always have the same meaning when translated.

See above, there is no deflection, since you’re doing exactly what you accuse LDS of doing. But I understand why you would not see this.

No, it does not fail. Heresay is never as good as firect quotes. We do not have all the info of the OT guys and their day-to-day lives as we do your false prophets. But even so, I do not recall Biblical Prophets saying we would find men on the moon, or spouting the horrible racist vindictives of many of your alleged prophets, etc.

I can understand your need to avoid logic when it comes to your prophets.

So now parts of the Biblical record are “heresay” (sic). The fact of the matter is that you are holding LDS prophets to standards that are unbiblical. When called on this, you then attempt to cast doubt on the Biblical record by appealing to culture, translation, antiquity, and “heresay”. I can understand why you would do that when your standards of evaluating LDS prophets condemn the Biblical ones.

 

[SirThomasMore]

Do you not see what you’re saying? You’re implying that Moses perhaps did not really say what the Bible says he said. You’re doing exactly

 

[Caprica]

Not true. Oh, I am sure you need it to be that way, but you are not being truthful here. I beleive Moses said what the Bible said he said…but, I am not sure it was a word-for-word direct quote…are you? But, for your false prophets, we KNOW we have word-for-word quotes. Are you truly not understanding this? Wow.

So you believe that Moses said what the Bible said. So what pray tell do culture, antiquity translation, etc. have to do with your argument? Nothing. Nice try, again.
.

I did, and am, responding. I was I apologizing that my arguments are over your head.

No, you’re not responding. You brought up culture, translation, antiquity, etc. for some reason, which has yet to be disclosed. Since you now say that you believe that Moses said what the Bible says he said, what was the reason for bringing up language and translation? It being “word for word” doesn’t change the fact that you believe what the Bible says Moses said, which brings us back to my point: you are holding LDS prophets to unbiblical standards, that the Biblical prophets are not held to, and translation has nothing to do with it. If it does, demonstrate it, if you are able.

And I did. Unfortunately, you are not capable of understanding the points.

See above.

Yet ou seem to have trouble with the concept.

See above. When asked for clarification, you cannot provide it.

Again, do not be dishonest. I am not casting doubt at all. I have plainly said that I believe the Bible is inerrant doctrinally. So, please, do not be dishonest about what I say. I am just stating that I am incredibly surprised that you cannot see the difference between having a record of what people did in a different culture, different time, different language, different millenium and having exact, direct quotes from people in our time, our country, our language, etc. I am just really amazed that you can;t see the difference in that. I truly overestimated you and I apologize

What exactly do those differences have to do with anything? If anything, you’re attempting to say that the Bible doesn’t really mean what it says about the Biblical prophets. If that’s not what you’re saying, then clarify. How does any of what you said above address my argument that you’re using a standard that Biblical prophets do not adhere to (specifically on the issue of talking with God, being infallible and impeccable, and having everything revealed to them)? It doesn’t, which is why you attempt to muddy the waters more.

So? Familiar and fluent are two different things. We do not have video of them back then like we do of your false prophets now.

LOL, you were the one that brought up translation issues. Nice try.

I can see your confusion. In my effort to be a better typist than I am, I often make mistakes. The word I intended to use is hearsay. Does that make more sense?

So, again, the Biblical test does not work. The Logical test is all we have left. Real Prophets who talk to God do not come up with the horrible stuff your alleged propehts have come up with.

Again, the Biblical test does work. Prophets are not infallible always, nor are they impeccable. Latter-day Saints believe in continuing revelation, and do not believe that God has revealed everything to prophets. Prophets are entitled to their opinions and views on theological issues. The standard that you hold LDS prophets to is unbiblical. Bringing up culture, time, etc. does not change that, unless you want to say that the Biblical record is not meaning what it says. If that’s not what you mean by bringing up culture, time, etc., then clarify. If you cannot, then that’s okay, I understand.

 

[RebeccaJ]

LDS don’t have a prophet. There isn’t any indication, anywhere, or in anyway, that this claim has any merit. None. It is just said and LDS member expect people to go, “oh yeah, I see what you mean, you said that guy is a prophet”.

Provide something substantial that indicates your prophet is a prophet, because anyone can make the claim.

 

[SirThomasMore]

So you believe that Moses said what the Bible said. So what pray tell do culture, antiquity translation, etc. have to do with your argument? Nothing. Nice try, again.