To Quote LDS Prophets....

[Caprica]

My goodness. I really AM speaking over your head. You truly don’t get it. Not true. Oh, I am sure you need it to be that way, but you are not being truthful here. I beleive Moses said what the Bible said he said…but, I am not sure it was a word-for-word direct quote…are you? But, for your false prophets, we KNOW we have word-for-word quotes. Are you truly not understanding this? Wow.

LOL, you really don’t get this, do you? So you believe that Moses said what the Bible said he said, but it may not be word for word. LDS prophets, in general, we have word for word quotes. So what does this have to do with anything (since you believe Moses said what is in the Bible)? Again, I asked you to clarify, yet you refuse to. How professional.

Yeah,. I responded. But I am way over your head on this one. You simply do not see the differences between then and now.

Obviously there are differences, that’s not the issue. The issue is, what do these differences in culture, time, etc. have to do with anything we’re talking about in this thread? That’s the issue that you refuse to address. But I know that that works better for straw man arguments.

Yes, I can. But it is like explaining trig to an infant. You are incapable of understanding the concept.

You have yet to explain anything. When asked to clarify, you mock and don’t clarify. How professional.

The fact is that you brought up culture, antiquity, translation, etc., but didn’t say what these differences have to do with the topic at hand. Can you or can you not provide clarification on the issue. I expect that you won’t, as you have done in numerous threads throughout the time you’ve posted here and at MADB. Perhaps its just that you don’t remember what the actual topic is, since you poison the well so many times in an attempt to deflect.

So, again, the Biblical test does not work. The Logical test is all we have left. Real Prophets who talk to God do not come up with the horrible stuff your alleged propehts have come up with.

I’ve already addressed this, and shown why your logic is illogical. Culture, antiquity, and translation have no role in this since it doesn’t change Biblical prophets from being human and not God-controlled robots.

At least you try.

 

[lax16]

scriptures.lds.org/en/gs/p/65
scriptures.lds.org/en/gs/p/64
eom.byu.edu/index.php/Prophet

Please answer my question as well.

GUIDE TO THE SCRIPTURES
Prophet
See also President; Prophecy, Prophesy; Revelation; Seer
A person who has been called by and speaks for God. As a messenger of God, a prophet receives commandments, prophecies, and revelations from God. His responsibility is to make known God’s will and true character to mankind and to show the meaning of his dealings with them. A prophet denounces sin and foretells its consequences. He is a preacher of righteousness. On occasion, prophets may be inspired to **foretell the future **for the benefit of mankind. His primary responsibility, however, is to bear witness of Christ. The President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God’s prophet on earth today. Members of the First Presidency and the Twelve Apostles are sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators.

Prophecy, Prophesy
See also Prophet; Prophetess; Revelation; Seer
A prophecy consists of divinely inspired words or writings, which a person receives through revelation from the Holy Ghost. The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy (Rev. 19: 10). A prophecy may pertain to the past, present, or future. When a person prophesies, he speaks or writes that which God wants him to know, for his own good or the good of others. Individuals may receive prophecy or revelation for their own lives.

Caprica - Where does the LDS definition explain that Mormon prophets are not prophets 24/7?
Seems to me just the opposite, based on the links you provided.

Also, it is very clear from LDS definitions that prophets do foretell the future. So…back to my original question:

Please provide an example of a prophecy from a Mormon prophet that was original and actually came true.

 

[SirThomasMore]

My goodness. I really AM speaking over your head. You truly don’t get it. Not true. Oh, I am sure you need it to be that way, but you are not being truthful here. I beleive Moses said what the Bible said he said…but, I am not sure it was a word-for-word direct quote…are you? But, for your false prophets, we KNOW we have word-for-word quotes. Are you truly not understanding this? Wow.

I responded. But I am way over your head on this one. You simply do not see the differences between then and now.

So, again, the Biblical test does not work. The Logical test is all we have left. Real Prophets who talk to God do not come up with the horrible stuff your alleged prophets have come up with.

So, we are left with either

1. God is stupid and racist
2. LDS “prophets” do not talk to God and are frauds

 

[Caprica]

GUIDE TO THE SCRIPTURES
Prophet
See also President; Prophecy, Prophesy; Revelation; Seer
A person who has been called by and speaks for God. As a messenger of God, a prophet receives commandments, prophecies, and revelations from God. His responsibility is to make known God’s will and true character to mankind and to show the meaning of his dealings with them. A prophet denounces sin and foretells its consequences. He is a preacher of righteousness. On occasion, prophets may be inspired to **foretell the future **for the benefit of mankind. His primary responsibility, however, is to bear witness of Christ. The President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God’s prophet on earth today. Members of the First Presidency and the Twelve Apostles are sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators.

Prophecy, Prophesy
See also Prophet; Prophetess; Revelation; Seer
A prophecy consists of divinely inspired words or writings, which a person receives through revelation from the Holy Ghost. The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy (Rev. 19: 10). A prophecy may pertain to the past, present, or future. When a person prophesies, he speaks or writes that which God wants him to know, for his own good or the good of others. Individuals may receive prophecy or revelation for their own lives.

Caprica - Where does the LDS definition explain that Mormon prophets are not prophets 24/7?
Seems to me just the opposite, based on the links you provided.

Also, it is very clear from LDS definitions that prophets do foretell the future. So…back to my original question:

Please provide an example of a prophecy from a Mormon prophet that was original and actually came true.

Lax, it seems that everyone is ignoring the question I initially asked (you ignored my question and responded with a question, which I answered with links). Can you please answer my question that was directed to you-

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6963571&postcount=83
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6963597&postcount=84

If you cannot answer, please just say so. Thanks.

The Encyclopedia of Mormonism entry on “Prophets” is linked to directly from the LDS.org Gospel Topics page on “Prophets”.
**
“In modern times, speaking of Brigham Young, Elder Wilford Woodruff said, “He is a prophet, I am a prophet, you are, and anybody is a prophet who has the testimony of Jesus Christ, for that is the spirit of prophecy” (JD 13:165; see Spirit of Prophecy). It follows that this spirit does not operate in every utterance of its possessor. The Prophet Joseph Smith explained that “a prophet [is] a prophet only when he [is] acting as such” (HC 5:265).”**

As far as prophecies, you may be interested in this page:

jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_prophecies.shtml

 

[Caprica]

My goodness. I really AM speaking over your head. You truly don’t get it. Not true. Oh, I am sure you need it to be that way, but you are not being truthful here. I beleive Moses said what the Bible said he said…but, I am not sure it was a word-for-word direct quote…are you? But, for your false prophets, we KNOW we have word-for-word quotes. Are you truly not understanding this? Wow.

I responded. But I am way over your head on this one. You simply do not see the differences between then and now.

So, again, the Biblical test does not work. The Logical test is all we have left. Real Prophets who talk to God do not come up with the horrible stuff your alleged prophets have come up with.

So, we are left with either

1. God is stupid and racist
2. LDS “prophets” do not talk to God and are frauds

Wow, you cannot give clarification to the relevance of culture, translation, antiquity, etc. to the issue at hand when asked. I assume this is because they were merely deflections and not actually on-topic.

Repeating yourself won’t work here, sorry. Please provide the clarification or admit that what you stated had no relevance to the actual topic. It’s not that hard to provide the clarification if you think I’m not understanding you. Unless you just want to continue to mock and not be professional.

 

[Javl]

Caprica:

Maybe you will comply with my request. I have asked other LDS members a number of times and have never received an answer.

Can you please list for me the beliefs, tenets, or doctrines, of the Church of Latter Day Saints? If not all, then at least the important ones that will show the direction of the LDS.
Thank You.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Caprica]

Caprica:

Maybe you will comply with my request. I have asked other LDS members a number of times and have never received an answer.

Can you please list for me the beliefs, tenets, or doctrines, of the Church of Latter Day Saints? If not all, then at least the important ones that will show the direction of the LDS.
Thank You.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Javl,

The name of my church today is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, not the Church of Latter Day Saints (though for a time in our early history it was known as the Church of the Latter Day Saints).

As far as our beliefs, I will PM you, since this is off topic.

 

[Pahoran]

I am not holding your “prophets” to a Biblical Standard. Not at all.

We know that; but thank you for that refreshingly honest admission.

Latter-day Saint prophets claim to be prophets in the biblical tradition. If the biblical standard doesn’t disqualify them, then anything else is merely ad-hoc.

I am holding them to a logical standard.

Oh really?

Then we should expect to see a connected logical argument, shouldn’t we?

I suggest that you should be able to express your argument as a syllogism, such as:

1. *]All real prophets share some property P;
   *]Mormon prophets do not have P;
   *]Therefore Mormon prophets are not real prophets.
   
   Let’s see how you make out.
   

   When one talks to God as your “prophets” claim, they shoud not be coming out with the stuff they come out with, they should be so easily fooled as with Mark Hoffman, and they should not come up with such awful doctrine.

   I’m unable to see a syllogism in that. Evidently there isn’t one.
   
   IOW, your so-called “logical standard” is nothing of the sort. It is an appeal to ignorance about LDS truth claims. In fact, it seems to appeal to merely emotional assumptions about what prophets “should” do, instead of what the biblical record shows that they really do.
   
   Regards,
   Pahoran

 

[Pahoran]

Caprica:

Maybe you will comply with my request. I have asked other LDS members a number of times and have never received an answer.

Can you please list for me the beliefs, tenets, or doctrines, of the Church of Latter Day Saints? If not all, then at least the important ones that will show the direction of the LDS.
Thank You.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Javl,

you didn’t address your question to me, but I’m happy to respond.

Please see The Articles of Faith for a good start. Then, I’d like you to glance at the opening post of this thread.

After that, I’m happy to discuss whatever you’d like.

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[SirThomasMore]

We know that; but thank you for that refreshingly honest admission.

 

[Pahoran]

No problem. Why in the world would I hold unbliblical prophets to a Biblical standard? I am glad you get it.

Too right I get it. I get that holding them to a biblical standard is the only valid way to test whether they meet that standard.

Holding them to an ad-hoc standard of your own invention is necessary if and only if you realise that a biblical standard would not disqualify them.

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[SirThomasMore]

Too right I get it. I get that holding them to a biblical standard is the only valid way

 

[Javl]

Javl,

The name of my church today is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, not the Church of Latter Day Saints (though for a time in our early history it was known as the Church of the Latter Day Saints).

As far as our beliefs, I will PM you, since this is off topic.

My apologies for the error and thank you again for your answer.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

Javl,

you didn’t address your question to me, but I’m happy to respond.

Please see The Articles of Faith for a good start. Then, I’d like you to glance at the opening post of this thread.

After that, I’m happy to discuss whatever you’d like.

Regards,
Pahoran

Thank you for the links.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Pahoran]

why would I hold unbliblical false prophets to a Biblical standard?

Because that’s the only way to prove that they are “unbliblical false prophets.”

Your opinion is not proof.

but, again…since you wanna do the biblical standard thing, Please point me to the Books of the Bible where Biblical Prophets go off on racists rants like BY or Mark Peterson, etc did.

I think you’ve got me there. Still, I think maybe you are judging us a little bit too harshly. There was one of our early Church leaders who was passing through a western city when he was accosted by a woman of the “wrong race” who asked him to help her child. He replied that for him to help her would be equivalent to taking the food from his children’s mouths and throwing it to the dogs. She replied that even the dogs get to eat the leftovers sometimes. The leader chuckled and agreed to help her.

Please point me to the Book of the Bible where a Biblical Prophet decided that blood oaths were the way to go.

Again, I think you’ve got me there. There was one of our prophets who ordered someone to kill a rival political leader. When the underling had compassion and didn’t carry out the murder, the prophet did it himself, and subsequently replaced the underling.

Please point to me the books of the Bible where Biblical Prophets were caught in illicit sexiual conduct and to cover it up devised polygamy.

I don’t think you’ve got me there. What you have described is not what happened; it is the most negative spin possible of an event that did not happen the way you wish it did.

Please point to me the Biblical Prophets who defruaded people out of money in illegal bank scandals.

Once again, it didn’t happen the way you describe it.

You just can’t help resorting to false accusations, can you?

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[SirThomasMore]

Because that’s the only way to prove that they are “unbliblical false prophets.”

 

[TikiTokiguy]

I’m reading “The Mormon Murders” and it talks about Young’s near “go murder anybody who leaves the church” sermons. Anybody have any quotes from these “blood atonement” sermons? Also, is it true that many times when they were excavating or whatever land around Salt Lake and they found many skeletons that were from murder victims, murdered because they left the church?

 

[SirThomasMore]

I have read that book, way back in 1990. Very good book. Another good book on the Mark Hoffman episode is A Gathering of Saints.

What I found interesting in my research afdter reading the books is that there were LDS police investigators who left the Church over this. Apparently, they caught Hinkley in lies and could not understand how Hinkley could be so dishonest and how easily Hoffman fooled people who spoke to God.

I will always suspect that the Church convinced him to plead guilty so that Hinkley and other Church leaders would not have to testify.

Mormons will say that Hoffman pled guilty to avoid the death penalty, but that seems odd since Hoffman tried to kill himself in prison.

 

[TikiTokiguy]

I’m only through 100 pages but it’s interesting how when one becomes a successful businessman or hold a prominent position, they become a candidate for Bishop/Stake President. If they become a bigger business man - they become a candidate for the General Authority. Talk about a money trail. What kind of Bible reasoning do they use to back all this up?

 

[SirThomasMore]

I’m only through 100 pages but it’s interesting how when one becomes a successful businessman or hold a prominent position, they become a candidate for Bishop/Stake President. If they become a bigger business man - they become a candidate for the General Authority. Talk about a money trail. What kind of Bible reasoning do they use to back all this up?

lol…one thing I have brought up before is the difference between the LDS Church and The true Church.

They claim to be like the early Church, but yet time and time again we have shown that is incorrect.

For example, Jesus (and Catholics) did and do not base calling on wealth. Go look at the 15 “apostles” of the LDS Church…most, if not all, are independantly wealthy. Jesus picked poor fishermen.

It has always been a church that had money as their god. Look at the two most prominent revelations since Joe: Repealing polygamy and blacks in the priesthood. Neither change happened until the finances were threatened.