"To save the life of the mother" when and how?

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There’s a difference between saying “There is no absolute truth” and saying that you shouldn’t make statements that only make sense if we assume your position represents the absolute truth.

For example, if I we have a long drawn out discussion that ends with you not adopting my view, and I say “You just refuse to accept the truth” you can just as easily snap back “No, YOU refuse to accept the truth.”
 
I’ll try and say it straight, keeping in mind that I’m no Catholic authority, and you guys can debate the implications.

If a sleepwalker goes to kill you and the only way you can defend yourself is killing the sleepwalker, yes according to Catholic moral law you must die because you would be killing the sleepwalker even though if they had control over their actions they certainly would not kill you. You cannot commit murder to save yourself unless the other person is consciously and actively trying to kill you or something you do indirectly causes their deaths. The sleepwalker is not a killer, but you would be if you killed said sleepwalker.
 
Marc_Anthony said:
I’ll try and say it straight, keeping in mind that I’m no Catholic authority, and you guys can debate the implications.

If a sleepwalker goes to kill you and the only way you can defend yourself is killing the sleepwalker, yes according to Catholic moral law you must die because you would be killing the sleepwalker even though if they had control over their actions they certainly would not kill you. You cannot commit murder to save yourself unless the other person is consciously and actively trying to kill you or something you do indirectly causes their deaths. The sleepwalker is not a killer, but you would be if you killed said sleepwalker.
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That is the position consistent with claiming that a mother may not have an abortion to save herself, I believe.

What if the assailant is severely mentally ill?
 
That’s a trickier situation. Depends on the mental illness. If they’re convinced you’re Hitler and are trying to kill you because of that, I’m pretty sure you’d have to die. But if they thought you were just the worst person on the planet for some reason that deserved to be killed you could kill this person in self defense I think because they’re trying to kill you and not somebody their mind thinks is Hitler or Satan or something.
 
Marc_Anthony said:
I’ll try and say it straight, keeping in mind that I’m no Catholic authority, and you guys can debate the implications.

If a sleepwalker goes to kill you and the only way you can defend yourself is killing the sleepwalker, yes according to Catholic moral law you must die because you would be killing the sleepwalker even though if they had control over their actions they certainly would not kill you. You cannot commit murder to save yourself unless the other person is consciously and actively trying to kill you or something you do indirectly causes their deaths. The sleepwalker is not a killer, but you would be if you killed said sleepwalker.
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You’re not obligated to allow anyone to kill you, whether they are sleepwalking, deranged or otherwise trying to kill you. Self defense is not a sin.

So, if this sleepwalking person is attacking your mother or child, and nonlethal options fail, do you let the sleepwalking person just kill your mother or child? I don’t know about you, but I won’t let that happen.

If you want to go ahead and let the sleepwalker kill you, or your mother, or your child, or the kid down the street go ahead. 🤷
 
Marc_Anthony said:
That’s a trickier situation. Depends on the mental illness. If they’re convinced you’re Hitler and are trying to kill you because of that, I’m pretty sure you’d have to die. But if they thought you were just the worst person on the planet for some reason that deserved to be killed you could kill this person in self defense I think because they’re trying to kill you and not somebody their mind thinks is Hitler or Satan or something.
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Really? When a deranged person goes after the Pope, do his protectors not shoot to disable, even kill, the attacker?

If someone comes after you with a hatchet because he thinks you are Hilter you do not have to die. If you want to die, go ahead and put your arms down and let him hack away at you. But people have the right to protect themsleves.
 
To protect other people from death I think you’d be allowed to kill the sleepwalker, though I’m not too sure. I don’t think you’d be allowed to protect yourself though.

Yes, this is the thought behind the Catholic doctrine of absolutely no abortion in any circumstances. I asked, and it is impossible for the Church to alter this; it is an infallible teaching, so get used to it.
 
Marc_Anthony said:
To protect other people from death I think you’d be allowed to kill the sleepwalker, though I’m not too sure. I don’t think you’d be allowed to protect yourself though.

Yes, this is the thought behind the Catholic doctrine of absolutely no abortion in any circumstances. I asked, and it is impossible for the Church to alter this; it is an infallible teaching, so get used to it.
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Hmmm… I’m not sure about that one. If that was the case, there wouldn’t have been a problem with preforming that abortion in that Catholic Hospital- that was killing an innocent who was killing a third party too.

I think you have to let the other person die.
 
Marc_Anthony said:
To protect other people from death I think you’d be allowed to kill the sleepwalker, though I’m not too sure. I don’t think you’d be allowed to protect yourself though.
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I think you need to talk to a priest. Self-defense is not a sinful.
Marc_Anthony said:
Yes, this is the thought behind the Catholic doctrine of absolutely no abortion in any circumstances. I asked, and it is impossible for the Church to alter this; it is an infallible teaching, so get used to it.
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It’s an infallible teaching of the Catholic Church, that’s true, and I didn’t deny it. However, if one is not Catholic, one is not obliged to follow that teaching.
 
tjm190 said:
Hmmm… I’m not sure about that one. If that was the case, there wouldn’t have been a problem with preforming that abortion in that Catholic Hospital- that was killing an innocent who was killing a third party too.

I think you have to let the other person die.
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Yeah, that’s a tricky one. I’d need to talk with a real Priest or a theologian.

Rence, no, self-defense is not sinful when you’re defending yourslef from somebody TRYING to hurt you. But if the person you’re defending yourself from is hurting you against their will then no, you can’t hurt back consciously in defense. This is the logic used in the Church’s abortion doctrine.
 
Zatzat said:
Why doesn’t a woman have the right to protect herself from a fetus that is going to kill her?
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Well, the logic is that the fetus is not trying to kill her and if the fetus could stop hurting the Mother he or she would.
 
Marc_Anthony said:
Well, the logic is that the fetus is not trying to kill her and if the fetus could stop hurting the Mother he or she would.
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You completely missed the point of the previous posters. They asked, if a sleep walker, who without conscious thought or a mentally ill person who wasn’t aware of their actions, were trying to kill a person…they posited that by Catholic teaching, the victim would have to let them kill them.

The fetus doesn’t know they’re killing the mother, nor does the sleepwalker. ( That was the point of the original posters)
 
And my response was yes, you’d have to let the sleepwalker kill you.
 
I know right? What type of God would prevent murder? 🤷

I understand that to you this seems ridiculous, but to me it makes perfect sense. You cannot kill the innocent. Period.
 
Zatzat said:
Why doesn’t a woman have the right to protect herself from a fetus that is going to kill her?
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The Catholic Church doesn’t consider the fetus an entity that is trying to harm her, therefore the reasoning of a woman trying to protect herself from death is not acceptable to the Catholic Church.

For people who are not Catholic, say Jewish, it’s very very unfortunate that a pregnancy is having a profound phsyisological affect on the woman, but she is allowed (and does have the right) to choose to have the abortion when the pregnancy itself is a threat to her own life because this isn’t an “abortion on demand” situation. It’s not that the fetus is going to kill her, it’s the preganancy itself that is a threat to her. And these cases are extremely rare, but they happen.

I wish people would get on the same page and work against abortion on demand instead of focusing on these unique situations that no one can agree on. Even in places where abortion is illegal, exceptions are made for cases of rape, incense and threat to the woman’s life. That’s not likely to change anytime soon…
 
Rence said:
The Catholic Church doesn’t consider the fetus an entity that is trying to harm her, therefore the reasoning of a woman trying to protect herself from death is not acceptable to the Catholic Church.
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The fetus isn’t trying to kill her, the fetus is going to kill her.
 
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