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Marc_Anthony
Guest
You can die as a RESULT of the innocent. If they actively killed you, they’re no longer innocent, are they?
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Rence
Guest
I haven’t seen that rule in writing anywhere. I could be wrong (not that it would change my mind about how I feel about it), but I don’t believe this is a teaching of the Catholic Church. If it is, it would be nice to see a CCC reference. Deranged people on muder sprees are hardly innocent, they are deranged yes, but not innocent.
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Zatzat
Guest
Yes, persons found to be not criminally responsible due to mental illness are in fact innocent.
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Marc_Anthony
Guest
Okay.
Bottom line, if somebody, be it a fetus, a sleepwalker, or anybody else is killing people INADVERTENTLY, then we have no right to kill them. They are innocent.
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Zatzat
Guest
Wow, that’s some heavy stuff that your God and your Church demands.Okay.
Bottom line, if somebody, be it a fetus, a sleepwalker, or anybody else is killing people INADVERTENTLY, then we have no right to kill them. They are innocent.
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Marc_Anthony
Guest
Nobody said it was easy. I might fail if confronted with such a terrible choice.
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Rence
Guest
Hey, I understand you, but don’t shoot the messenger. It’s not my rule. Notice how I answered you. I said, “The Catholic Church doesn’t consider the fetus an entity that is trying to harm her, therefore the reasoning of a woman trying to protect herself from death is not acceptable to the Catholic Church.”
Remember, this is a Catholic message board, and although I may not agree with some things, I try very hard to at the very least try to separate my opinions from what is Church teaching. I don’t always succeed, but I do try. We do have a responsibility to give the correct Church teachings, and make sure people know that our opinions are just that, our opinions.
You need to know that the Catholic Church doesn’t allow for direct abortion, regardless of any threat to the woman’s life. And that’s it. If a woman finds herself in such a predicament, she can talk to her priest and I do know of women who have had abortions because their life was in danger, and they were absolved (not condemned) by their priest. But this does not erase the teachings of the Church.
However, no where in the CCC does it say you need to force another person to be Catholic or live according to Catholic rules. Being Catholic must be consentual, and not due to any coersion. If one is not Catholic, they are not obliged to follow this or any other Catholic teaching.
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Rence
Guest
No, the Church doesn’t require that you let someone (like a sleepwalker or a deranged invidual) kill you instead of defending yourself.
But the Church does forbid direct abortion, in any circumstance. And it doesn’t matter how sick the woman is, that’s just how it is.
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Marc_Anthony
Guest
I’m trying to apply the abortion logic to the sleepwalker. The Church cannot be inconsistent. So yes, I do think you’d have to die.
I should ask a Priest or theologian or something.
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Rence
Guest
Yes, I think you should ask your Priest. Tell us what he says when you find out, kay?
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Marc_Anthony
Guest
Will do.Yes, I think you should ask your Priest. Tell us what he says when you find out, kay?
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JReducation
Guest
Unfortunately the Catholic Church did not pull this out of its hat. This position is God’s position and this plan is God’s plan. If it is God’s plan that the mother die, it is not in our power nor do we have tne moral authority to interfere with it.
One more point must be noted about ectopic pregnancy. One is not morally allowed to repair the tube, because that would involve taking the child out of the tube. The only moral option is to extract the tube with the child inisde. This is where the principal of double effect kicks in. The tube has been extracted, the child has not been touched. The child will die, because of the extraction, not because he was taken out of the tube.
What we have to remember in these issues is that God always has a plan. This has been revealed to us since the creation of Adam. Sometimes people do have to die in order for God to fulfill his plan. We see this throughout scripture. We see this in the history of the Church. How many men and women have gone to their death because of their faith? What was God’s plan? First, he planned to save the soul of the person who died and secondly he planned to sanctify the Church through the death of the victim soul. The mother’s death is not in vain. Her soul will benefit from her sacrifice and so will the souls of all of her relatives and friends who will live with the loss, if they are willing to accept it as God’s will. The mother is a martyr. She is pouring out her life for the soul of the Church, just like the martyrs have done throughout history.
Let’s not look at this from a purely human perspective. Let’s look at this from a bilbical perspective and it will be much clearer.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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Zatzat
Guest
Why is that ’ just how it is’?
Why can a woman defend herself from a person who is unaware, yet still trying to kill her.
Yet that same woman can’t kill a fetus that is unaware and is going to kill her?
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Marc_Anthony
Guest
You have a point. I don’t think you can defend yourself from either, but I’ll ask.
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Zatzat
Guest
The end result is the same…the fetus is dead, except the woman has one less tube.
No, the mother is dead, but she could have lived.
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Marc_Anthony
Guest
Yes, but she refused to live by murder, making the Mother a martyr.
When did we say that martyrs weren’t dead? In fact, they’re dead by definition.
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Rence
Guest
Because the person who is “unaware” is still directly trying to harm you, and you have the right to defend yourself against someone who is trying to harm you.
Ask JREducation, he’s much better at explaining this stuff than I am. But the Church teaches that the unborn is “the most innocent”, and as such, is not literally coming after you with a hatchet or gun, or other weapon. One cannot compare someone coming after you with a hatchet to a fetus lying in the womb practically motionless. The physiological effects that the pregnancy is contributing on a sick woman is not recognized by the Cathlic Church. Therefore no level of emergency is sufficient within the teaching of the Church to allow a direct abortion. I really don’t have an answer for that teaching. I don’t agree with it myself, but it is a Catholic teaching that Catholics are obligated to obey.
But I do know, that in extreme circumstances, women have had abortions to save their lives and talked with their priest and were never separated from the Church. Again, that’s not to erase the Church’s teaching. I’m just saying it happens. Even to people on this forum.
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tjm190
Guest
I’m not so sure about that- the Church forbids direct abortion BECAUSE the child is always innocent. But so is the sleepwalker and the paranoid schizophrenic.
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Zatzat
Guest
Women who take methotrexate to end ectopic pregnancies are murderers?
How puzzling.
Mary_Gail_36
New member
Priests give absolution through the sacrament of Confession. When a woman (or man) presents herself to the Sacrament, she must have contrition.
I doubt people go into the sacrament, “Bless me Father, I really didn’t sin…but could I have absolution anyway?”
As a side note, I’m a mom.
Pretend I was on a boat with my baby, a storm came about, and capsized the boat. I manage to grab the baby and hold on to the capisized boat, but I can’t hold on to the boat very well because I am also holding on to the baby.
But, If I weren’t holding on the baby, I could hold on to the boat much easier, and live.
Holding on to the baby, would probably end in both of us drowning…should I let go of the baby? Would anybody think that is the moral choice?
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