To set the Record straight Catholics do not worship Mary!

[SIA]

SIA-

So what was the “straw that broke the camel’s back” so to speak that made you decide to leave the faith? I ask this not to be antagonistic, but out of curiosity. Was it bitterness with the church’s teachings or something speciific you felt that it could not provide you the answer you sought.

I do not believe that the Marian dogmas were revealed truth to the Magisterium by the Holy Spirit. I do not believe that the present day pope is the successor of Peter. I do not believe that the Catholic church is the Church that Christ founded. I believe that the magisterium of the Catholic church has puposely and maliciously traslated some of Scripture to support its positions while knowingly doing so in a wrongful and deceitful fashion. I believe that the Reformation was from God and in God’s time as is other reformations that have and will take place in Chirst’s Church. I could continue.

 

[cfrancis]

I do not believe that the Marian dogmas were revealed truth to the Magisterium by the Holy Spirit. I do not believe that the present day pope is the successor of Peter. I do not believe that the Catholic church is the Church that Christ founded. I believe that the magisterium of the Catholic church has puposely and maliciously traslated some of Scripture to support its positions while knowingly doing so in a wrongful and deceitful fashion. I believe that the Reformation was from God and in God’s time as is other reformations that have and will take place in Chirst’s Church. I could continue.

And so you became an Anglican??? By your definition above, you’ve gone form bad to worse.

 

[SIA]

And so you became an Anglican??? By your definition above, you’ve gone form bad to worse.

Respectfully speaking, what you said here speaks to what you know (or better yet, don’t know) about Anglicans.

 

[Leeann]

Protestants,

The Truth is that nowhere in Catholic literature or in Catholic History since Pentacost to this day will you ever find a document which directs Catholics to WORSHIP Mary. You will, however, find many documents which say we VENERATE her.

Protestants the definition of WORSHIP and VENERATE in the dictionary

Venerate: “To regard with respect, reverence, or heartfelt deference.”

Worship: “The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or sacred object.”

The Fifth Commandments is “Honor your Father and your Mother.”

Protestants, do you honor your father and mother? Do you respect them? Of Course you do.

This is what we Catholics do we honour/respect our parents, and for the Blessed Virgin Mary being our Mother we do the same.

Protestants, do you worship your parents? Of course not, and neither do us Catholics worship our parents. However, it is the Fifth Commandment that we should Venerate/Honor them as we do Virgin Mary our Heavenly Mother for all eternity.

Worship and Venerate according to the definition found in the Dictionary and in Every Catholic Heart, these two words have quite different meanings.

Through the Grace of God, I have been a Catholic 44 years and Counting and I have many family members and friends also who are strong Catholics never once have we Worshiped Virgin Mary

Protestants, I know for a fact you heard all this before, but you have your eyes and mind closed to the Truth! You must believe that we worship Mary, you must in order to try to justify your disobedience To Mary, in which you are breaking the Fifth Commandment for she is Our Mother and she deserves to be venerated/honored daily! “All GENERATIONS WILL CALL ME BLESSED.” Is calling Mary Blessed, is this only for Chistmas time, if that, is this the only time you remember to call her Blessed. If it is Shame on you.

There is not a day that goes by that I forget to call Mary Blessed and that goes for the Catholic Church as well.

Protestants, will you leap for Joy for Mary? Doing so would you consider this being Worshiping or Venerating Mary?

John the Baptist in the Womb of Elizabeth LEAPT for Joy when he heard Mary’s Voice. Is John worshiping or venerating Mary? John, is venerating Mary and if a “baby” has the Knowledge/Grace form God to venerate Mary, then I think you Protestants should to.

Then again if God Has Not given you the Grace to have this Knoweldge such as a Baby, then You should all ask God for it.

Protestants, show me this document/teaching of the Church that tell us Catholics that we should worship Mary?

44 years being Catholic, I never came across this Teaching of the Church.

Truth is you can’t find this Document/Teaching it does not exist and since it does not Exist, you will Never find it! Case Closed!

Ufamtobie

It’s all “semantics” – word play – interchangeable – “venerate” is listed as a synonym for “worship” and vice versa.

Thesaursus.com (online)
Main Entry: venerate
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: revere
Synonyms: admire, adore, apotheosize, appreciate, be in awe of, cherish, deify, esteem, exalt, hallow, hold in awe, honor, idolize, look up to, love, put on a pedestal, regard, respect, reverence, think highly of, treasure, value, worship.

Merriam Webster (online)

General Semantics:
3 a : the meaning or relationship of meanings of a sign or set of signs ; especially : connotative meaning b: the language used (as in advertising or political propaganda) to achieve a desired effect on an audience especially through the use of words with novel or dual meanings

Note: the “bracketed” part is theirs.

It must be wonderful for someone to know the intentions and hearts and minds of EVERY Catholic and to be able to speak on their behalf…and even more wonderful to be able to know the intentions and hearts of ALL Protestants…

Then you post a challenge for people to show you a “document” that, by your own admission, does not exist…hmmmm?

 

[cfrancis]

Respectfully speaking, what you said here speaks to what you know (or better yet, don’t know) about Anglicans.

Well, I’d love to learn. What can you tell me about the beginning of the Anglican Church?

 

[adrift]

Whether one calls it worshipping Mary or not, many of the things Catholics believe and practice regarding Mary are seen by many as either wrong or unnecessary. When I was Catholic, a friend of mine attended a Good Friday Stations of the Cross with me and afterward asked a quite insightful question. Why does the priest lead everyone in the Hail Mary prayer while kneeling at every single station? Ans also, why is there so much invocation of Wasn’t it Jesus who suffered a horrible death for us and for our sins? Isn’t it he alone who saves us and who deserves our attention, our worship and our praise especially at Good Friday? I can’t remember what I said to him then and it matters not. But at this time, I couldn’t agree with him more.

I found this a strange description of the stations. It doesn’t match any stations I have ever attended.

Leader - We adore Thee, O Christ, and bless Thee.
All - Because by Thy holy cross Thou hast redeemed the world.

Jesus, you stand all alone before Pilate. Nobody speaks up for you. Nobody helps defend you. You devoted your entire life to helping others, listening to the smallest ones, caring for those who were ignored by others. They don’t seem to remember

This would be a typical station. Nothing about what Mary is doing and who she was at every station. I believe the traditional prayers after the meditations is the Our Father and Glory Be as well as the Hail Mary.

 

[adrift]

It’s all “semantics” – word play – interchangeable – “venerate” is listed as a synonym for “worship” and vice versa.

Thesaursus.com (online)
Main Entry: venerate
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: revere
Synonyms: admire, adore, apotheosize, appreciate, be in awe of, cherish, deify, esteem, exalt, hallow, hold in awe, honor, idolize, look up to, love, put on a pedestal, regard, respect, reverence, think highly of, treasure, value, worship.

You are right it is synonyms but not quite the way you think.

Take a look at the definition of worship

1chiefly British : a person of importance —used as a title for various officials (as magistrates and some mayors)
2: reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power ; also : an act of expressing such reverence
3: a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4: extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem

 

[adrift]

Well, it was Pope Pius XII who prayed the very controversial prayer to Mary professing that she has powers and qualities which only belong to Christ and The Holy Spirit respectively in Scripture. For the most part, I don’t believe that the vast majority of Catholics worship Mary but what Pope Pius XII said in his prayer to Mary in the Marian year which he proclaimed absolutely was worship plain and simple. I know the prayer well and there is just no way that I could ever be convinced of otherwise.

Cardinal Strosmeier openly exclaimed that the Catholic church had made a Goddess of Mary.

I couldn’t find a record of this Cardinal. Is he dead? When was he a Cardinal. When did he say this?
Is this the prayer you refer to?

 

[ufamtobie]

Tell that to Pope Pius XII and Cardinal Strosmeier.

Sia,

Even Peter and Paul argued but the Holy Spirit always prevails.

Ufam tobie

 

[ufamtobie]

Whether one calls it worshipping Mary or not, many of the things Catholics believe and practice regarding Mary are seen by many as either wrong or unnecessary. When I was Catholic, a friend of mine attended a Good Friday Stations of the Cross with me and afterward asked a quite insightful question. Why does the priest lead everyone in the Hail Mary prayer while kneeling at every single station? Ans also, why is there so much invocation of what Mary is doing and who she was at every station? Wasn’t it Jesus who suffered a horrible death for us and for our sins? Isn’t it he alone who saves us and who deserves our attention, our worship and our praise especially at Good Friday? I can’t remember what I said to him then and it matters not. But at this time, I couldn’t agree with him more.

Sia,

At every station as well we also say the Our Father.

Was the Angel Gabriel wrong when He said: Hail Mary full of Grace the Lord is with thee blessed art thou among women? No! then niether are we!

Remember all generation shall call Virgin Mary blessed. We are only doing what the Holy spirit tells us to do.

Ufam tobie,

 

[ufamtobie]

Ufamtobie,
I understand and agree with you. I do not see what Catholics do regarding the BVM as worship. Here is the problem:

luis_rcoelho wrote:

Now I’m sure that, since Luis is portuguese and is using English, there may be a language issue here, but some Protestants will read this and say, “See? Catholics do worship Mary! Here’s one who says he does.”
I, for one, believe that Luis means venerate here. He can speak for himself, but I doubt he means latria. Nevertheless, one can see why some protestants might have trouble reconciling what you stated (quite well, I might add), to what Luis says.
I might also contend, without being contentious, that there are many Catholics who, as a result of poor catechesis I would guess, don’t recognise the difference between latria and hyper dulia. So while I respect the pious Catholic veneration of the BVM, I am also concerned that in practice, sometimes the line between latria and hyper dulia get blurred, for which Catholics should be alert to avoiding.

Jon

The Point is that the Catholic Church don’t teach it! Nor does it get blurred by it! We Catholics only do what the Angel Gabriel did, what Elizabeth, Mary’s cousin did, and what John the Baptist did in the Womb of Elizabeth, and that is we Leap for Joy for BVM and as the Servants at the wedding feast of Cana did, and that is, “Do what ever He tells you to do.” And what John the Apostle did, and thats is to take Blessed Virgin Mary as Our MOTHER, for all eternity!

Immagine only having a Father (GOD) and we all brothers and sister’s of (Jesus Christ) and Not Having a Mother (Virgin Mary)

As for luis_rcoelho, wether we misunderstood him or if we understood him correctly Only God Knows what in his heart.

Ufam tobie,

 

[ufamtobie]

Not that way for me at all. I left Catholicism because of what I DO know and what I learned in being an ex-cradle Catholic for three and a half decades.

Sia,

I have stood a cradle Catholic Because of what I do know or more immportantly the Grace that has been given to me to know, By the Holy Spirit. And that is close to 4 and a half decades until death in this life and into Eternity for the gates of hell will not prevail over it in this life time or in the next.

Ufam tobie,

 

[ufamtobie]

I do not believe that the Marian dogmas were revealed truth to the Magisterium by the Holy Spirit. I do not believe that the present day pope is the successor of Peter. I do not believe that the Catholic church is the Church that Christ founded. I believe that the magisterium of the Catholic church has puposely and maliciously traslated some of Scripture to support its positions while knowingly doing so in a wrongful and deceitful fashion. I believe that the Reformation was from God and in God’s time as is other reformations that have and will take place in Chirst’s Church. I could continue.

Sia,

Listen to yourself above, I…, I…, I…, I…, I…, I… and I could continue.

Sia, who are you to to fight against Jesus Christ Church?

Judas the betrayer, had a lot of I…, I…, against Jesus too let me tell you, you have alot of infamous poeple who agree with you. And come to think of it you and Judas were both of the Same Church at one time centuries apart of course, and both left. Scary!

You will answer for all of this in the next life.

Ufam tobie.

 

[ufamtobie]

Respectfully speaking, what you said here speaks to what you know (or better yet, don’t know) about Anglicans.

Sia,

The Anglican Church STARTED In the reign of King Henry VIII the Church of England began to separate from being under the jurisdiction of the Pope. After alltercations between Henry and the pope, not least the pope’s refusal to grant Henry a divorce, he decided too to break away from Rome to form his own church - the church of England, with Christ at its head (and not the Pope) and himself and every subsequent monarch as the Supreme Governor on earth, with the Archbishop of Canterbury as spiritual head. wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_started_the_Anglican_church_and_how

Sia, your church was started by king Henery XIII, a murderer !

Sia, Truth is that Henry XIII left because he could not have a divorce so I guess in his mind if I can’t get a divorce then I will murder my wifesssss.

Sia, From a church that Jesus Christ founded to a Man made church of a killer you now belong too, Sia, you are confused.

Go to confession and come back home.

Ufamtobie

 

[ufamtobie]

It must be wonderful for someone to know the intentions and hearts and minds of EVERY Catholic and to be able to speak on their behalf…and even more wonderful to be able to know the intentions and hearts of ALL Protestants…

Believer,

Well it seems you think you know all the intentions and hearts and minds of EVERY Catholic to be able to speak on the Catholic Churches teachings and believe that we do worship Virgin Mary. I say from what I do know about the Catholic Teachings and that is the Catholic Church don’t teach us to worship Virgin Mary.

Believer, do I know the hearts of all protestants? No I do not!

So does this mean that you Know the Truth that the Catholic Church don’t teach us Catholics to worship Mary, since you say I don’t know all the hearts of the Protestants?

Then you post a challenge for people to show you a “document” that, by your own admission, does not exist…hmmmm?

EXACTLY! AND CASE CLOSED!

Many a time a good layer would do the same to challenge the prosecutor about his client being inoccent and the prosecutor who can not find it because it does not exits like you correctly say above, well case closed, the Innoccent walk

Prosecutor/protestant means the same to me.

Ufamtobie

 

[wisdomseeker]

Whether one calls it worshipping Mary or not, many of the things Catholics believe and practice regarding Mary are seen by many as either wrong or unnecessary. When I was Catholic, a friend of mine attended a Good Friday Stations of the Cross with me and afterward asked a quite insightful question. Why does the priest lead everyone in the Hail Mary prayer while kneeling at every single station? Ans also, why is there so much invocation of what Mary is doing and who she was at every station? Wasn’t it Jesus who suffered a horrible death for us and for our sins? Isn’t it he alone who saves us and who deserves our attention, our worship and our praise especially at Good Friday? I can’t remember what I said to him then and it matters not. But at this time, I couldn’t agree with him more.

basically what you did is letting this person put doubts in your mind. and you made your choice of rather believing him than believing in the Church built by Christ. how pathetic.

when someone comes to me and says anything against our beliefs, i just say the Sacred Scriptures cannot be understood outside the Church.

what Jesus said 2000 years ago still true to this day. what you people fail to see is that the promise of Christ goes on untill the end of time. the end has not come yet.

the devil is clever. remember what happened in the Garden?
God says one thing and the devil comes and says another. that is how he gets people to turn away from the Truth. i am sure the devil works very hard to turn people away from the Church Jesus built. figure out for yourself why.

May the Grace of our Lord lead you to the True Church. Amen

 

[Leeann]

You are right it is synonyms but not quite the way you think.

Take a look at the definition of worship

The synonym is for the 4th definition. It is not synonymous for reverence offered a divine being. As you note, respect is also a synonym for worship. So if you respect someone it is the same as worship because it is a synonym for worship? I hope you don’t believe that. So it is not all “semantics” – word play – There is a definite difference in the words. If not than you have prohibited yourself from admiring, looking up to, appreciating, honoring or loving another human. As those are also synonyms of worship.

As I said…semantics - word play…and you do it well.

 

[Leeann]

ufamtobie

Believer,

Well it seems you think you know all the intentions and hearts and minds of EVERY Catholic to be able to speak on the Catholic Churches teachings and believe that we do worship Virgin Mary. I say from what I do know about the Catholic Teachings and that is the Catholic Church don’t teach us to worship Virgin Mary.

Hi ufamtobie
My name is Leeann – not Believer – but the quote above is mine so I’ll respond.
Those are your words……I’ve never posted anything with regards to ALL Catholics….whereas you state : “ Worship and Venerate according to the definition found in the Dictionary and in Every Catholic Heart, these two words have quite different meanings. “

“Every” Catholic Heart – now come on ufamtobie, do you really know the hearts of Every Catholic…or does the word “Every” have another meaning also?

ufamtobie:
Believer, do I know the hearts of all protestants? No I do not!

Then why make such blanket statements such as the ones below addressed to “Protestants”?

*Protestants,

The Truth is that nowhere in Catholic literature or in Catholic History since Pentacost to this day will you ever find a document which directs Catholics to WORSHIP Mary. You will, however, find many documents which say we VENERATE her*.

(indicating that all Protestants believe there is a document in existence, such as the one you refer too)

Protestants, do you honor your father and mother? Do you respect them? Of Course you do.

(you ask a question….then answer it yourself for all Protestants)

*Protestants, I know for a fact *you heard all this before, but you have your eyes and mind closed to the Truth! You must believe that we worship Mary, you must in order to try to justify your disobedience To Mary,

(here you state as “fact” that you know that all Protestants have heard this before and that all of their eyes and minds are closed to what you consider to be “the Truth”….then continue on to say what they all must believe and you give your opinion as to why this is so, implying that they are all trying to justify their disobedience to Mary.

Which raises another question here – is it “documented” that people are to be “obedient” to Mary?

ufamtobie:
So does this mean that you Know the Truth that the Catholic Church don’t teach us Catholics to worship Mary, since you say I don’t know all the hearts of the Protestants?

What it means is that you or anyone else cannot speak on behalf of all Catholics and their understanding of what has been taught to them by the Catholic Church, or how they themselves have put this into practice over the years.

originally by Leeann:
Then you post a challenge for people to show you a “document” that, by your own admission, does not exist…hmmmm?

ufamtobie:
EXACTLY! AND CASE CLOSED!

I repeat….

 

[adrift]

As I said…semantics - word play…and you do it well.

Interesting I thought you were the expert.

This is a common tactic of evasion. You tried to make a case that worship and veneration are no different you tried to show that because they were synonyms that they were the same. Yet the other words that were synounymous included admire, looking up to, appreciate, honor and love you ignored. You only emphasised the worship without discriminating the meaning of worship. The word play is on your part. Taking only one meaning you want while ignoring the others which clearly shows that worship and veneration are different. It wasn’t even a good try

 

[happilycatholic]

Ufamtobie,
I understand and agree with you. I do not see what Catholics do regarding the BVM as worship. Here is the problem:

luis_rcoelho wrote:

Now I’m sure that, since Luis is portuguese and is using English, there may be a language issue here, but some Protestants will read this and say, “See? Catholics do worship Mary! Here’s one who says he does.”
I, for one, believe that Luis means venerate here. He can speak for himself, but I doubt he means latria. Nevertheless, one can see why some protestants might have trouble reconciling what you stated (quite well, I might add), to what Luis says.
I might also contend, without being contentious, that there are many Catholics who, as a result of poor catechesis I would guess, don’t recognise the difference between latria and hyper dulia. So while I respect the pious Catholic veneration of the BVM, I am also concerned that in practice, sometimes the line between latria and hyper dulia get blurred, for which Catholics should be alert to avoiding.

Jon

Jon, I agree with you but I also think there is a little “believe what you wanna believe” going on as in, if one catholic says we worship Mary and that fits their preconceived notion that we do then there you have it we DO indeed worship Mary.

---

**It’s nonsense. Any intelligent person can tell the difference between veneration, love and honor and “worship”. This deliberate interpretation is all just to perpetuate their own agenda. **

---

Personally, I don’t think all Protestants think we worship Mary or anything/anyone else. My parents are Baptist and they don’t believe that way.