To set the Record straight Catholics do not worship Mary!

[Leeann]

Originally Posted by Leeann
Or - If you’re wrong,they’re right.Very threatening. Especially to those, in the Catholic Church who believe that they have the sole responsibility in the “shepherding of His flock” by encouraging them to worship anyone other than God. Hence,“the confusion”. Read and study the scriptures.Please.And place your faith in HIM.Please.

Are we back on topic now?

Adrift:
There is no confusion in God’s Church, The Catholic Church.

The confusion comes from those who wish to deny Jesus’ words be it divorce or His establishing a Church with Peter as its head.

It has already be discussed and confirmed by another Catholic poster on here, that there are Catholics who by their “woeful ignorance” may not be following what the Catholic Church teaches with regards to how they treat Mary…so there **is **confusion and not because of them wanting to get a divorce or because they have doubts about the Catholic Church’s Apostolic succession.

Quote: Leeann:
Most of the Catholics that have been posting here are sure they know exactly how they “venerate” Mary…some even assert that ALL Catholics are as sure as they are, by the clarity of the definition of the word “worship”….as set out by the Catholic Church.

I’ve been attempting to express that this is not the case, that not all Catholics are clear on the teachings/definitions, whatever….however it’s gotten off onto a lot of bantering about of “word play”. I’m guilty!

Adrift:
You try to say that not all Catholics are clear on the teachings/definitions. Generalizations will always find an exception. The old saying is the exception proves the rule.

Yes. We’re all guilty of generalizations at times, here’s a good “generalization” (even though not an “infallible” comment or dogma/doctrine of the Catholic Church) would it be safe to assume that it would have some impact as to this being “the truth” to those listening – considering who said it:

legionofmary.org/POPE_LOM.HTM

The Legion of Mary

Pope John Paul ll -Part of an address delivered by the Holy Father, Pope John Paul II, to a group of Italian legionaries on 30th October 1982

“For its birth and growth, apostolic work looks to her who gave birth to Christ, conceived by the Holy Spirit. Where the Mother is, there too is the Son. When one moves away from the Mother, sooner or later he ends up keeping distant from the Son as well.”

I will attempt not to “generalize” and speak on behalf of all other faithful and true believers the world over that would be evidence against this statement, but I can speak for myself as this simply not being true.

Adrift:
It doesn’t matter if there are some who do not understand their religion.

Oh but it does matter! It matters very much, that’s why the Apostles were so intent on making sure that no one practiced differently to what they had taught and why they visited and exhorted the early Christians about what they had taught. If one doesn’t “understand their religion”
they can be led astray, they can begin to believe all sorts of things that will take their focus and attention away from the gospel message that they preached….telling them (us) who to turn too in times of need – Jesus/God – who to trust and have faith in – Jesus/God – who loves us more than any created being and who is able and willing to be approached and hear and answer our requests – Jesus/God.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20041014_anno-eucaristia_en.html

THE YEAR OF THE EUCHARIST

SUGGESTIONS AND PROPOSALS

1. Lines of Eucharistic spirituality
2. A discourse on Eucharistic spirituality would require much more than these pages could propose. In effect, we will limit ourselves to a few “suggestions,” in the hope that the particular Churches take up the subject, providing their own stimuli and a broader space for specific initiatives of catechesis and formation. **It is important that the Eucharist be understood **not only in the aspects of its celebration, but also as a life-project, and that it be the base of an authentic “Eucharistic spirituality”.

While this is in relation specifically to the eucharist ( I just happened to come across it while reading through the document)…it says **it is important **that this teaching of the Catholic religion be understood.

Adrift:
Sometimes it is those with simple faith that put you and me to shame.

That depends on in whom or where their “simple faith” is rooted.
If it is in Christ,yes what you’ve stated is so true…if it is the Catholic Church (or any other organization/denomination) then their faith is misplaced.

Adrift:
What the Church teaches is what matters.

*see above comment again re Apostles and the excerpt I posted of “what matters” – “it is important” that what is being taught by the Catholic Church is understood.

 

[Leeann]

Adrift:
Have you ever been to a mass?

It is all about the worship of Jesus.

No, I have never been to mass.

As to it being all about the worship of Jesus…according to below, it’s no longer just Jesus…Mary is received also…“in a certain sense”.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20041014_anno-eucaristia_en.html

THE YEAR OF THE EUCHARIST
SUGGESTIONS AND PROPOSALS

Mary: icon of the “Eucharistic” Church

1. “If we wish to rediscover in all its richness the profound relationship between the Church and the Eucharist, we cannot neglect Mary, Mother and model of the Church.” Thus does the sixth chapter of the Encyclical Ecclesia de Eucharistia exhort us, where John Paul II recalls the profound relation that Mary possesses with the Eucharist and with the Church that lives from the Sacrament of the altar. The encounter with “God with us and for us” includes the Virgin Mary.
   The Year of the Eucharist is a favorable occasion to intensify our reflection on this facet of the Mystery. So as more profoundly to live the sense of the Eucharistic Celebration, in order that it mark our lives, there is no better way than to let oneself be “taught” by Mary, “woman of the Eucharist”.
   Apropos, it is important to remember what the Pope said in Rosarium Virginis Mariae n. 15, concerning the act of “being conformed to Christ with Mary”: she “enables us to enter naturally into Christ’s life and as it were to share his deepest feelings.” On the other hand – the Pope continues in Ecclesia de Eucharistia – in the Eucharistic Celebration, in a certain sense, we always receive, along with the memorial of the death of Christ, the gift of Mary, a gift made to us at the foot of the cross in the person of John (Behold your mother: Jn. 19:27): “Experiencing the memorial of Christ’s death in the Eucharist also means continually receiving this gift. It means accepting – like John – the one who is given to us anew as our Mother It also means taking on a commitment to be conformed to Christ, putting ourselves at the school of his Mother and allowing her to accompany us. Mary is present, with the Church and as the Mother of the Church, at each of our celebrations of the Eucharist.” (Ecclesia de Eucharistia, 57)

 

[adrift]

No, I have never been to mass.

As to it being all about the worship of Jesus…according to below, it’s no longer just Jesus…Mary is received also…“in a certain sense”.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20041014_anno-eucaristia_en.html

THE YEAR OF THE EUCHARIST
SUGGESTIONS AND PROPOSALS

Mary: icon of the “Eucharistic” Church

1. “If we wish to rediscover in all its richness the profound relationship between the Church and the Eucharist, we cannot neglect Mary, Mother and model of the Church.” Thus does the sixth chapter of the Encyclical Ecclesia de Eucharistia exhort us, where John Paul II recalls the profound relation that Mary possesses with the Eucharist and with the Church that lives from the Sacrament of the altar. The encounter with “God with us and for us” includes the Virgin Mary.
   The Year of the Eucharist is a favorable occasion to intensify our reflection on this facet of the Mystery. So as more profoundly to live the sense of the Eucharistic Celebration, in order that it mark our lives, there is no better way than to let oneself be “taught” by Mary, “woman of the Eucharist”.
   Apropos, it is important to remember what the Pope said in Rosarium Virginis Mariae n. 15, concerning the act of “being conformed to Christ with Mary”: she “enables us to enter naturally into Christ’s life and as it were to share his deepest feelings.” On the other hand – the Pope continues in Ecclesia de Eucharistia – **in the Eucharistic Celebration, in a certain sense, we always receive, along with the memorial of the death of Christ, the gift of Mary,**a gift made to us at the foot of the cross in the person of John (Behold your mother: Jn. 19:27): “Experiencing the memorial of Christ’s death in the Eucharist also means continually receiving this gift. It means accepting – like John – the one who is given to us anew as our Mother It also means taking on a commitment to be conformed to Christ, putting ourselves at the school of his Mother and allowing her to accompany us. Mary is present, with the Church and as the Mother of the Church, at each of our celebrations of the Eucharist.” (Ecclesia de Eucharistia, 57)

Mary IS Jesus’ mother. You should have also paid attention to this a gift made to us at the foot of the cross in the person of John (Behold your mother: Jn. 19:27): Why you posted this I don’t know:shrug: As nothing here suggests that we worship Mary.

 

[Leeann]

Mary IS Jesus’ mother. You should have also paid attention to this a gift made to us at the foot of the cross in the person of John (Behold your mother: Jn. 19:27): Why you posted this I don’t know:shrug: As nothing here suggests that we worship Mary.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Unfortunately, many Catholics do not seem to understand the proper handling of this issue. I cannot tell you how many times I have been asked by Protestants why we worship Mary. When I tell them we love and venerate her, but worship is for God alone, I hear something along the lines of the questioner having been told by whatever Catholic that we really do worship her. It turns many off who may be putting a toe into the Tiber.

Have you ever prayed for someone? Have you ever asked someone to pray for you or for a loved one? If it is OK to ask those members of the Church who are still with us to pray for us, Catholics believe that it is OK to ask those members of the Church who have died and gone to Jesus to pray for us. When Catholics pray to Mary and/or the saints, we are asking them to intercede with God on our behalf or on behalf of the situation for which we are praying. We do not expect the saints themselves to bring about any change in us or in our world. Many Christians find it comforting to know that other people, living or dead, are praying for them. Others do not. We are under no obligation to ask others to pray for us. peace and every blessing,

 

[Soutane]

Fr. Corapi also said that it is far better to be a good Protestant than it is to be a bad Catholic.

I agree wholeheartedly with Father Corapi but it would be even better for a good Protestant to become a good Catholic.THEY are the FIRE of our Church.

 

[Soutane]

Why do you persist in insisting that we worship Mary.We tell you we don’t.The Catechism tells you we don’t.Please stop this deliberate maligning of our Faith.

Your consistant insistance that we do borders on calumny and bearing false witness.Just because YOU cannot differentiate between veneration and worship does not mean that we can’t.This is becoming tiresome and more than a little irritating.

I believe that ALL non Catholic Christians WORSHIP the Bible.Literally worship a material object and that you are all guilty of idolatary.PROVE THAT YOU DON’T.
This makes as much sense as your claiming WE worship the created rather than the Creator.

 

[Leeann]

Soutane:
Why do you persist in insisting that we worship Mary.We tell you we don’t.The Catechism tells you we don’t. Please stop this deliberate maligning of our Faith.

Your consistant insistance that we do borders on calumny and bearing false witness.Just because YOU cannot differentiate between veneration and worship does not mean that we can’t.

You yourself Soutane have stated that this may be possible - due to a “woeful ignorance” of some Catholics. Post # 66.

Also:

The Catholic Encyclopedia (New Advent site) – states “worship is paid to her”.
•
*As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, **the worship paid to her ***is called hyperdulia (for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728).

Soutane:
This is becoming tiresome and more than a little irritating.

Believe me, I can relate to how you’re feeling…from the other side though….and especially since you have twice implied “calumny” on my part, where the above proves this to be unacceptable and false.

Soutane:
I believe that ALL non Catholic Christians WORSHIP the Bible. Literally worship a material object and that you are all guilty of idolatary. This makes as much sense as your claiming WE worship the created rather than the Creator.

But I’ve never claimed that ALL Catholics worship Mary……so it doesn’t make any sense at all.

With regards to Adrift’s statement that the eucharist is **“All **about the worship of Jesus” and the posting taken from the Vatican website about Mary – “Woman of the Eucharist” – (just a portion, but the whole document is quite enlightening and other references that it points to with regards *to Mary’s role in this particular worship practice *within the Catholic Church) – do you have any comments that might clarify or make a distinction that Jesus is the recipient of **ALL **the worship?

This would tie in also with an excerpt from another posting of yours:

Soutane: Post #99
Non-Catholics seem to regard prayer as worship, Catholics do not, although prayer CAN be part of worship which for us is participation in the mass. The ABSOLUTE in worship and adoration.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Unfortunately, many Catholics do not seem to understand the proper handling of this issue. I cannot tell you how many times I have been asked by Protestants why we worship Mary. When I tell them we love and venerate her, but worship is for God alone, I hear something along the lines of the questioner having been told by whatever Catholic that we really do worship her. It turns many off who may be putting a toe into the Tiber.

Have you ever prayed for someone? Have you ever asked someone to pray for you or for a loved one? If it is OK to ask those members of the Church who are still with us to pray for us, Catholics believe that it is OK to ask those members of the Church who have died and gone to Jesus to pray for us. When Catholics pray to Mary and/or the saints, we are asking them to intercede with God on our behalf or on behalf of the situation for which we are praying. We do not expect the saints themselves to bring about any change in us or in our world. Many Christians find it comforting to know that other people, living or dead, are praying for them. Others do not. We are under no obligation to ask others to pray for us. peace and every blessing,

 

[David47]

Originally Posted by Georgia
Unfortunately, many Catholics do not seem to understand the proper handling of this issue. I cannot tell you how many times I have been asked by Protestants why we worship Mary. When I tell them we love and venerate her, but worship is for God alone, I hear something along the lines of the questioner having been told by whatever Catholic that we really do worship her. It turns many off who may be putting a toe into the Tiber

It seems to me after reading the back and forth arguements that there is a problem here and perhaps Georgia is looking for an answer as maybe you all are. There is a great perception that Catholics worship Mary, maybe not all but enough to give that idea. Why not address the problem and try to figure out why that is. Certainly if someone came into your home and got an incorrect impression would you not do all you could to change the opinion. We are dealing with some lost souls a lot of the time, if their perception is that you worship Mary then you need to look and change for its your job to enable their salvation. The gospel message is very simple and clear thats what they should hear and see( thats where you as members of the church come in), it was taught by the apostles so that we may emulate what they did. All worship and praise should be directed to Christ for he is our Savior, as the apostles would aknowledge, anything that diverts from this is not Christian.

 

[cbsindelar]

Wasn’t Martin Luther horribly afflicted with scrupulosity?

 

[SIA]

Wasn’t Martin Luther horribly afflicted with scrupulosity?

Martin Luther wasn’t afflicted with anything. He was gifted by God with conscience, discernement and courage.

 

[SIA]

I agree wholeheartedly with Father Corapi but it would be even better for a good Protestant to become a good Catholic.THEY are the FIRE of our Church.

Ya know, ex-Catholics (and there are many) are the Fire of our church as well.

 

[cbsindelar]

Martin Luther wasn’t afflicted with anything. He was gifted by God with conscience, discernement and courage.

Ahh yes…

I myself am gifted with what I like to refer to as excessive conscientiousness.

Why then did Luther wish to leave out the book of James?

 

[cbsindelar]

Ya know, ex-Catholics (and there are many) are the Fire of our church as well.

Are you familiar with Dr. Scott Hahn?

You should read his story.

 

[Leeann]

Bill Pick:
When Catholics pray to Mary and/or the saints, we are asking them to intercede with God on our behalf or on behalf of the situation for which we are praying. We do not expect the saints themselves to bring about any change in us or in our world.

There is another “thread” with this prayer as the topic, but as clearly seen here, Bartolo Longo expected Mary to bring about change in the world, as did the Pope…in fact the Pope went on to dedicate the whole world “to Mary” on this occasion.

*The Pope’s leading of the Supplication of the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary, a prayer written by Blessed Bartolo Longo (1841-1926) was one of the high points of this 12th pastoral trip in Italy.

“We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart,” the text of the prayer reads.

With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: “If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn.”*

zenit.org/article-23987?/=english

That’s the website address – I don’t know how to bring up the “direct link” though here, but in Post# 27 Adrift has posted a link that works. (prayer)

 

[SacredHeartFan]

I love mom! She is a very beautiful soul!

View attachment 5012

I like to see myself as that child.

 

[RobHom]

Ahhhh, Leeann, you keeping picking at nits… Catholics don’t worship Mary…its that simple. Its all a matter of misperception. It would be like a Catholic repeatedly saying that “Protestants” worship the Bible…and doing so repetitively and redundantly.

I’m not sure if you’re trying to convince yourself or someone else, but if its us, then you’re not achieving your goal…sorry.

 

[RobHom]

No, I have never been to mass.

You should go…our Church is open to all.

As to it being all about the worship of Jesus…according to below, it’s no longer just Jesus…Mary is received also…“in a certain sense”.

Go, and see for yourself…form your own opinion based upon actual “experience” not hotlinks that you’ve googled for…

You might be surprised. And I doubt very seriously that anyone will try to “convert” you…

 

[Leeann]

Ahhhh, Leeann, you keeping picking at nits… Catholics don’t worship Mary…its that simple. Its all a matter of misperception. It would be like a Catholic repeatedly saying that “Protestants” worship the Bible…and doing so repetitively and redundantly.

I’m not sure if you’re trying to convince yourself or someone else, but if its us, then you’re not achieving your goal…sorry.

Picking at nits? Is that in response to the Vatican Website document I posted with regards to “Woman of the Eucharist”…

I’m responding to the thread “statement” and all that it encompasses!