To set the Record straight Catholics do not worship Mary!

[Leeann]

Of course…allowance should be made for anyone who wants to respond to any of my own “digs” that I may have posted prior to posting that last “treuce” one.

 

[FranciscanGemma]

…why do I keep thinking…"that little “green face” is so suitable for this poster…

Because it is! Roll those eyes all you want; at least one part of your cranial cavity is getting a workout! :

 

[RobHom]

Picking at nits? Is that in response to the Vatican Website document I posted with regards to “Woman of the Eucharist”…

No, its in response to your overall repetitive redundancy in trying to prove what cannot be proven.

I’m responding to the thread “statement” and all that it encompasses!

Uh-huh, ok, sure…I see, yup, uh-huh…

 

[RobHom]

Rob Hom - that is something I really do want to do…go and sit through a Mass…is partaking of the Eucharist open to all?

You really should go. It will more than likely be enlightening. But, unfortunately, as a non-Catholic partaking of the Eucharist is not an option.

There really would be no sense in going for an “actual experience” if it’s not…would there?

That is where you make a mistake. It would be an experience, and I have no doubt it would be both rewarding and educational, even given that you cannot partake in the Eucharist. The experience would be a light that will shine in the dark closet of your lack of knowledge regarding Catholicism. That statement is not made in an insulting or unfriendly manner…just as a matter of honesty.

…but then again what with this “Woman of the Eucharist” it takes on a whole different meaning…in the Pope’s words…“in a sense”.

Maybe to you, and the interpretation you derive that works for you and your intents.

Like I said…you spend far more time worrying about the issue than we do… Especially since it seems that you only got from the document that which you desired to derive, and I am left with a very strong sense that you did not read the entire document, and understood little of what you actually read.

Picking at nits…yep.

 

[ufamtobie]

As a matter of fact it is!

Most of my Catholic friends venerate Mary, however there a couple that have, over the years gotten to a point where Christ/God is not even mentioned anymore or alluded too in conversation, due to their focus being concentrated on Mary….and not for the purpose of her leading the way to her Son…but specifically for what “she” does for them……He’s never mentioned….the entrance hallways to one of their homes resembles a shrine to Mary and in the other’s a bedroom has become shrine like also….statues/prayer cards/rosary beads….all Marian….and it really does “appear” like another religion when you experience a conversation with them. There eyes literally glaze over at the mention of Jesus’ name and they begin talking about Mary and all her wonders.
One actually told me that it is safer to go to Mary….she’d rather go to her than to Jesus as she was a bit afraid of Him.

I’ve been trying to understand for awhile now,what has happened to them…whether it is their lack of understanding as to what the Catholic Church actually teaches – however they seemed to have had the same grasp of understanding for quite some time as to what some have exhibited in here and other forums of discussion and as my other Catholic friends do, what I mean to say is that they aren’t able apparently, to ‘distinguish’ the differences of worship…as is evidenced in their actions/reactions (see above).

Then I saw this particular thread:

“To set the Record straight Catholics do not worship Mary!”

I wasn’t quite expecting what I found when I read the opening post for it.
I think the word “ALL” made me take notice and set me off!

While at times it’s been a bumpy ride - if nothing else, I am sure getting a variety of comments and questions and different Catholic perspectives, even from reading other posts that aren’t mine.

Leann,

If you feel that your Catholic friends above are worshiping Virgin Mary go and chat with them they need help! But as you can see here at this site you know now that we don’t worship Mary! Nor does the Church teach it!

I’m sure you have better things to do, now that you know the truth!

Ufam Tobie

 

[CentralFLJames]

…
I apologize to anyone that I may have offended, whether by misunderstanding of my intentions due to not being able to distinguish sarcasm from humour, or by direct attack, or by frustration at not being able to make myself clear due to my own incapabilities.

Can we discuss the Mass and the worship and the point being made that it is the most meaningful and important form of worship within the Catholic Church.

As one poster said that the worship is centred totally on Christ,
I posted a reference to the Vatican website on a document with regards to Mary and the eucharist…“Woman of the Eucharist”.

Has anyone seen it or read it and if so, can you offer what your opinion or understanding of what it says means?

Yes Catholics do believe the mass to be the highest form of worship that any human being can give to God since it gives to God the single thing in all of Creation that He finds most pleasing - His own perfect and obedient Son - Jesus. In fact from the lesson of Cain and Abel and Job we know that God only accepts certain kinds of worship and will not accept simple prayer from a person not in a state of favor with Him (mortal sin alienates one from God).
DIVINE LITURGY of the Mass:

“The Holy Mass [The Divine Liturgy] is a prayer itself, even the highest prayer that exists. It is the Sacrifice, dedicated by our Redeemer at the Cross, and repeated every day on the Altar. If you wish to hear Mass as it should be heard, you must follow with eye, heart, and mouth all that happens at the Altar. Further, you must pray with the Priest the holy words said by him, in the Name of Christ and which Christ says by him. You have to associate your heart with the holy feelings which are contained in these words and in this manner you ought to follow all that happens on the Altar. When acting in this way you have prayed Holy Mass.”

– His Holiness, Pope Saint Pius X

What is unique to Catholic liturgy (and Orthodox since they are the same apostolic faith) is that The Eucharist is both a sacrifice and a sacrament. We “offer up” to God our prayers, sacrifices (alms and donations of every sort such as food & clothing for the poor, or current sufferings etc.) as well as the Eucharistic bread and wine (bread which earth has given and human hands have made and fruit of the vine and work of human hands). It is a sacrament in that God receives our offering and returns to us His Son under the appearances of bread and wine (in a like manner as God appeared to Moses under the appearances of the burning bush and in the like manner that Christ though hidden to us visually during his 40 week gestation in Mary was present within her as a child).

The Saints are explicitly mentioned in 3 places of the mass: ) the Penitential Rite, 2) the recitation of the Apostle’s Creed during the Profession of Faith rite and 3) During the Eucharistic Prayer. In each of these we are calling to mind their exemplifying life and enjoining them to our worship through the Communion of Saints (Catholics believe all the angels and saints are present with us in spirit in the mass worshiping right there with us). This however is just honoring the saints and inviting them to join in with us in worship of God and adding their prayers to ours as well as thanking them for their life’s example of Christian virtue and obedience to God that merited The Church and all Christians in God’s eyes and give here on earth the inspiration to follow their good example to overcome the temptations of the world and enter into heavenly glory with Christ.

That said though the Eucharist is the center of the mass and the focus of the mass and our whole entire reason for going to mass since the Eucharist is the physical source of grace so abundent that one could never attain the same with a life of simple prayer (assuming one is properly disposed to receive worthily and in a state of true inner Christian repentance. Thus communion becomes an explicit means by which Catholics who are justified in Christ during baptism become progressively sanctified and holy over their full lives through receiving “their daily bread” and cooperating with God’s grace.

One thing also to know - not a single Bishop or priest can change the liturgy of the mass. If they do I believe it is automatic excommunication. So it is impossible for anyone to “reinterpret” the mass and add liturgy that would refocus the mass on Mary or the other saints - it just does NOT happen. If any priest did this then I guarantee you the bishop would get hundreds of phone calls demanding that priest be censured and removed or corrected.

Therefore. the paper you reference has NO consequence to our understanding of the mass and changes nothing. It is simply a deeper level theological exposition on Mary’s relational aspects with Christ for those who have a deeply developed contemplative spirituality. Many Catholics go very deep into meditating on God’s mysteries and especially in the many layers of meaning present in the eucharist. Mary being “mother of Jesus” in so many ways is prefigured as the Arc of the Covenant (which contains the law, the symbols of power and God). Since Mary bore Jesus for 40 weeks in her womb this is why all generations call her “blessed” - and why you should too and if you do not you should since its almost a commandment in the bible! Mary has always been “at Jesus side” from the very beginning - she was the FIRST Christian since she made the very first profession of faith “let it be done according to thy WORD”. Jesus of course is the Living Word of God and the living entirety of scripture - why Catholics are Christ centered not bible centered (the bible is important but not the whole thing - the life of Jesus is) and why we live by every word that comes out of God by literally eating that WORD.

Hope this helps,
James

 

[FranciscanGemma]

I don’t know about any of you, but the name calling and sniping and accusations **on all sides **are pretty disgusting aren’t they??? :slapfight:

I apologize to anyone that I may have offended, whether by misunderstanding of my intentions due to not being able to distinguish sarcasm from humour, or by direct attack, or by frustration at not being able to make myself clear due to my own incapabilities.

Can we discuss the Mass and the worship and the point being made that it is the most meaningful and important form of worship within the Catholic Church.

As one poster said that the worship is centred totally on Christ,
I posted a reference to the Vatican website on a document with regards to Mary and the eucharist…“Woman of the Eucharist”.

Has anyone seen it or read it and if so, can you offer what your opinion or understanding of what it says means?

The problem with forums ( and also with emails) lies in the fact, that even with emoticons and such, we can’t always let someone know when we are being sarcastic, when we’re joking, or when we’re serious. I hate to use the now “over-used” cliche, but “perception is reality”. Peace.

 

[placido]

Why do you persist in insisting that we worship Mary.

He/she (Leeann) concentrates too much on the perceived “Catholic idolatry” that he/she forgets that slander and witnessing falsely is as big a sin like the former.

 

[placido]

As a matter of fact it is!

Most of my Catholic friends venerate Mary, however there a couple that have, over the years gotten to a point where Christ/God is not even mentioned anymore or alluded too in conversation, due to their focus being concentrated on Mary….

Now that you have the official position of the Church. go and tell them that what they are doing is not the Church teaches.

 

[SIA]

Contraire. There is not a shred of uncharity in explaining the truth that you are publicly revealing through euphamisms about yourself.

Answer the man’s question then and explain why you take so much pride in “swimming the Thames” rather than just plainly saying “I used to be Catholic but turned my back on the Catholic Church to walk away from it as a Protestant.”

If your decision shames you then you should not be publicly boasting about it in your signature under swimming away metaphors. So under the banner of pride you seem to be waving in your signature expression I would have rather assumed that the term “turncoat” would have been a source of pride to you - a person who changes the color of his robes so there can be no outward mistake about what side he is on. That is unless you are having regrets about leaving your Catholic roots - are you?

The only way you can find a problem with the term “turncoat” is in understanding the deep etymology of the term as it applied to specific geographical areas hundreds of years ago. In those times and regions there were not so few cases of many “turncoats” proving to have no scruples whatsoever by keeping 2 sets of over-coats (or in US civil war - a blue and a grey uniform in the closet) - doctrinal and philosophical gypsies. These sort often went back and forth both ways to suit themselves according to the ever shifting socio-economic conditions in times of revolution to profit by it; or to escape the persecution from the side that seemed to be in power. But, just like traitors, no one pragmatically really trusts a “turn coat” since the common man wise to the insincere ways he observed in himself as well as his neighbor popularly saw these as “opportunists” who wore “suits of convenience”. There was indeed a certain moral revulsion to those who appeared to lack any real concrete personal convictions other than the consistent pattern of “fitting in” to whatever was stylish at the moment for personal gain and comfort.

If you took the deeper meaning of the term personal then I might suggest you have a guilty conscience that does not track well with your public sentiments. Perhaps then you should take less apparent “pride” in escaping The Catholic Church to "swim the Thames. Perhaps you should consider changing you signature to simply “Protestant”. That would say the same thing of where your roots originally came from - The Catholic Church and also give a reasonable doubt that you at least felt like your forefathers who for a large part actually loved the Church but just left it in protest since they could not accept its authority.

There is no anger here - just sadness that you take pride that you left The Church to reject it. You might do well to remember this verse:

“Those who reject you reject Me and He who sent Me…”

James

This is pure unadulterated venom being spewing at me for genuinely believing differently than yourself. This isn’t about me misunderstanding and you being sad and not angry about it, this is purely hate on your part. I do not believe that Jesus instituted authority in the Roman Catholic church, plain and simple. Things such as using the term “turn coat” and “traitor” show plainly that this is about hatred on your part. I’m sure that the religious authorities of all kinds in Jesus’ time felt the same way about him and his Apostles as you do about me now.

I have never nor would I ever be regretful for leaving my Catholic roots. You personally have revived this whole notion in me. Thanks.

 

[placido]

This is pure unadulterated venom being spewing at me for genuinely believing differently than yourself. This isn’t about me misunderstanding and you being sad and not angry about it, this is purely hate on your part. I do not believe that Jesus instituted authority in the Roman Catholic church, plain and simple. Things such as using the term “turn coat” and “traitor” show plainly that this is about hatred on your part. I’m sure that the religious authorities of all kinds in Jesus’ time felt the same way about him and his Apostles as you do about me now.

I have never nor would I ever be regretful for leaving my Catholic roots. You personally have revived this whole notion in me. Thanks.

Oh, “provoke them with all sorts of slander but if they defend themselves, cry foul and accuse them of hatred”. I see!
On your statement that you would never or ever be regretful for leaving - Jn 6:66.

 

[CentralFLJames]

This is pure unadulterated venom being spewing at me for genuinely believing differently than yourself. This isn’t about me misunderstanding and you being sad and not angry about it, this is purely hate on your part. I do not believe that Jesus instituted authority in the Roman Catholic church, plain and simple. Things such as using the term “turn coat” and “traitor” show plainly that this is about hatred on your part. I’m sure that the religious authorities of all kinds in Jesus’ time felt the same way about him and his Apostles as you do about me now.

I have never nor would I ever be regretful for leaving my Catholic roots. You personally have revived this whole notion in me. Thanks.

You must imagine that you are a mind reader to accuse me of hating you and so forth. I openly tell you that I have no hate for you nor anger. So let me put you at ease there.

You need to be a realist and understand that from the Catholic perspective you are clearly a heretic and a traitor to your original faith. I don’t know a better word for it. But then again I suppose you would call The Church hateful for anathematizing any heretic for preaching things completely contrary to what the apostles handed down to us. You might do well to remember that the apostles were not all sugar-n-spice-and-everything-nice to those who preached a different gospel nor was Jesus to those who tried to turn the Church into a secular workplace (recall the overturning of the money changers). I don’t know who put in your head the idea that Christians are just supposed to be full of platitudes for those who reject the gospel when the bible tells us otherwise:

Galatians: 1:9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

I didn’t even curse you - I just called you what you seem to be boasting about in your signature line - being a traitor (or was it a good swimmmer? ). Do you imagine those Reformers who then turned against the original reformers to start yet other protestant sects or returned to the Catholic Church were not called traitors by Calvinists and Lutherans etc.? Come on - get real.

Do you know a better more charitable term for somone who turns their back on the faith they were given to them? Perhaps I could have said “fallen away” but is that really any better given that Satan fell away too and turned his back on God and elected his own self authority and pride over God’s authority?

You need to go take a pill or something SIA and recalibrate your sensitivities. You can’t be in here provoking and insulting Catholics and at the same time tell us we can’t respond back to you or that you must approve of the words we choose to use to try to get you to come to your senses and be reasonable.

James

 

[Bill_Pick]

You must imagine that you are a mind reader to accuse me of hating you and so forth. I openly tell you that I have no hate for you nor anger. So let me put you at ease there.

You need to be a realist and understand that from the Catholic perspective you are clearly a heretic and a traitor to your original faith. I don’t know a better word for it. But then again I suppose you would call The Church hateful for anathematizing any heretic for preaching things completely contrary to what the apostles handed down to us. You might do well to remember that the apostles were not all sugar-n-spice-and-everything-nice to those who preached a different gospel nor was Jesus to those who tried to turn the Church into a secular workplace (recall the overturning of the money changers). I don’t know who put in your head the idea that Christians are just supposed to be full of platitudes for those who reject the gospel when the bible tells us otherwise:

Galatians: 1:9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

I didn’t even curse you - I just called you what you seem to be boasting about in your signature line - being a traitor (or was it a good swimmmer? ). Do you imagine those Reformers who then turned against the original reformers to start yet other protestant sects or returned to the Catholic Church were not called traitors by Calvinists and Lutherans etc.? Come on - get real.

Do you know a better more charitable term for somone who turns their back on the faith they were given to them? Perhaps I could have said “fallen away” but is that really any better given that Satan fell away too and turned his back on God and elected his own self authority and pride over God’s authority?

You need to go take a pill or something SIA and recalibrate your sensitivities. You can’t be in here provoking and insulting Catholics and at the same time tell us we can’t respond back to you or that you must approve of the words we choose to use to try to get you to come to your senses and be reasonable.

James

JAMES THIS IS A VERY GOOD POST BUT I DONT THINK SIA THINKS SO

 

[Leeann]

Leeann
There really would be no sense in going for an “actual experience” if it’s not…would there?

RobHom
That is where you make a mistake. It would be an experience, and I have no doubt it would be both rewarding and educational, even given that you cannot partake in the Eucharist. The experience would be a light that will shine in the dark closet of your lack of knowledge regarding Catholicism. That statement is not made in an insulting or unfriendly manner…just as a matter of honesty.

Thank you…I understand and honestly believe it would still be a good experience in that sense.

Leeann
…but then again what with this “Woman of the Eucharist” it takes on a whole different meaning…in the Pope’s words…“in a sense”.

RobHom
Maybe to you, and the interpretation you derive that works for you and your intents.

Would you share your interpretation or understanding of what that document meant?

RobHom
Like I said…you spend far more time worrying about the issue than we do… Especially since it seems that you only got from the document that which you desired to derive, and I am left with a very strong sense that you did not read the entire document, and understood little of what you actually read.

Well I did read the whole document and to as my own understanding of it, that is why I have posted …a couple of times…requesting what other people understand this document to mean, in relation to the Eucharist being the highest form of worship. But no one has responded.

RobHom
Picking at nits…yep

Perhaps this is what you’ve “desired to arrive at”….that it’s “picking at nits”….and haven’t the inclination or desire to see what is being put forth by the Catholic Church.
I am left with a very strong sense myself that there are quite a few Catholics (I didn’t say ALL) who are not aware of or understand for themselves some of these things.

 

[Leeann]

Originally Posted by Soutane
Why do you persist in insisting that we worship Mary.

placido:
He/she (Leeann) concentrates too much on the perceived “Catholic idolatry” that he/she forgets that slander and witnessing falsely is as big a sin like the former.

Hi placido

I have already been accused of “calumny”.

You will notice, that in the very next post after the one the you have quoted from above….I refuted that with another poster’s own words…. nothing to substantiate that claim.

I take “slander and bearing false witness” very seriously, therefore could you be more specific as to the “slander and false witnessing” that you believe has occurred.

 

[Leeann]

CentralFLJames to SIA
You need to go take a pill or something SIA and recalibrate your sensitivities. You can’t be in here provoking and insulting Catholics and at the same time tell us we can’t respond back to you or that you must approve of the words we choose to use to try to get you to come to your senses and be reasonable.

We **ALL **need to take a pill…or two…. this statement above applies to us ALL.Non-Catholics and Catholics alike!

 

[Leeann]

So many posts…I just saw your post CentralFLJames re: the Mass and will read it through.

Thanks for taking the time with that by the way!

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
We ALL need to take a pill…or two…. this statement above applies to us ALL.Non-Catholics and Catholics alike!

(name removed by moderator)
No it does not you are a guest here- this is the non-Catholic section and some leeway is permissible but show some respect to our faith or leave. We are not obliged to hear endless mocking of our faith. You are jeering at what to us is precious and assuming to tell us the truth of matters you do not understand. You could say I could ignore you and I have tried to but we are called upon to defend our faith as well not merely to be passive and to hear it mocked in this manner is disgraceful - my wife is not even Catholic but Russian Orthodox and has been reading this thread and considers the insults to the Virgin to be disgusting as the BVM occupies a central role in her church as well.

You have no concept ot the offence you are causing or how hurtful it is. Or perhaps you do have a concept of this and do not care…

You are correct - rude and uncharitable comments are not acceptable – something I myself tried to address and apologize for (#183)….the only comment you made after that pertaining to me was:

(name removed by moderator)

I feel it is best for me not to talk with Leeann further as she encourages me to be uncharitable and meet rudeness with rudeness - which is not a Christian or even civilised repsonse. She of course may believe what she wishes…

Which is fine…perhaps you missed that post of mine or perhaps this was your response to it.

With regards to your response posted above:

Where have I ever insulted Mary?

Perhaps your wife and yourself have no concept of what insulting is, as you seem to be ignoring your own postings – go back and take a real close look….from your first post here to me….nothing pertaining to the “thread topic” at all or to entering into any kind of discussion whatsoever.

Is it part of the CA Forum rules that some Catholic posters are permitted to be sarcastic, obnoxious, bigoted, arrogant, mocking,rude,judgemental…. whenever they want because this is a Catholic site and you are the “hosts” and it’s okay for “hosts” to be like that…but Non-Catholic posters must not respond or act like that ever because they are only “guests”…and proper guests don’t act that way?

We’ve all displayed…or I should many have displayed this type of behaviour in here…it’s not right for any of us to do so as professing Christians.

The opening post for the “thread topic” in itself confrontational.
We’re human.

Why take such umbrage with my quote that you posted above…it indeed does apply to us all…should it not?

 

[Bill_Pick]

Thank you…I understand and honestly believe it would still be a good experience in that sense.

Would you share your interpretation or understanding of what that document meant?

Well I did read the whole document and to as my own understanding of it, that is why I have posted …a couple of times…requesting what other people understand this document to mean, in relation to the Eucharist being the highest form of worship. But no one has responded.

Perhaps this is what you’ve “desired to arrive at”….that it’s “picking at nits”….and haven’t the inclination or desire to see what is being put forth by the Catholic Church.
I am left with a very strong sense myself that there are quite a few Catholics (I didn’t say ALL) who are not aware of or understand for themselves some of these things.

LEEANN I DID NOT GET YOUR ANSWER REMEMBER THE PM

 

[David47]

Glad to see that Archie Bunker is alive and well.(sarcasm)
Is that what the Lord intended–maybe so but I think not, we are all apart of Christianity. Please I know that you all may be passionate but I think we should ALL concentrate on what CHRIST wants, He set the standard and I dont see many here that have that focus. All about my church is better than yours PLEASE if you got a perceived problem in your church FIX it, really if Protesants have a perceived problem fix it, if Catholics have a perceived problem fix it. Jesus and his apostles had a very simple **But **powerful message that all humanity could understand and now 2000 during the last years later we add OUR bit. EGO’s is our biggest problem, and guess what most of humanity is trying to figure out which is best —HOW SAD— how many souls have been lost while you pompously pronounce YOUR faith. Really, get real all of you people and I must admit after reading all of this stuff it gets down to a handfull. You should all be ashamed, the poor soul that comes into any of these forums( or your churches) would be totaly turned off. As a born again Christian for more than 30 years I thought that all of you would be pleased-- I know that our Father is and that Jesus is. Your sincerity and love does not come through here sad to say. Whether Peter started it or Paul it does not matter we are all part of the cornerstone of CHRIST it is his church and WE are his bride is there any thing else.

Yours In Christ
David