To set the Record straight Catholics do not worship Mary!

[David47]

Tatum ergo

David:

Since when does a ‘perception’ change truth into falsehood?

No, Catholics are not about to change their teachings because some people have false perceptions about them.

Another poster had an interesting challenge for you about snake handling. . .(and you know, there really is a small group of Christians out there who do handle snakes as part of their worship.) See here:
]
Quote:
Snake handling churches:
Alabama
Rock House Holiness Church on Sand Mountain in the rural northeast
South Carolina
Holiness Church of God in Jesus Name, Greenville
West Virginia

Church of the Lord Jesus, Jolo

These are obviously the ones who admit it. But since they claim they’re following the Bible, and you as a Protestant claim you do too, then you must handle snakes,but you won’t admit it.

Hey, it’s my perception. And we can even show groups who ‘really’ do this, and admit it, while with the exception of some women in Canada (who were excommunicated) you can’t even show any Catholic who claims to worship Mary.

Now, what are you going to do about my perception about you Protestants? Because the more you tell me that you don’t handle snakes, the more convinced I’m going to be that you’re lying.

I guess if that was the topic I would address it but it is not. The topic is what it is. And if it were only me it would not be a topic would it?I am not that important.
However it seems to be important to you and many others. And yes perception may be false but it does have a great impact on the truth. That I can’t change it is what it is.
Please understand that I dont say you worship mary because I dont know that, only that you say you dont and I believe you. However that only speaks for you not the other millions. I dont expect to receive an answer from all of them. I do read posts as many others do and there is a perception NOT just mine.

Incidently why dont you start a post that protestants drink turpentine and handle snakes. I cant help with that as it it a revelation to me.

Also I have not said anything as to how I worship the Lord other than I am Christian.

Yours in Christ

David

 

[Napsack]

Napsack,

Like I said before, you have not been given this Grace to know or understand the Truth this why you believe that we worship Virgin Mary.

Yes, Virgin Mary Can dispense Graces Through Jesus Christ! For Virgin Mary is “Full of Grace” Did Not Jesus say that we must Share with one another the Gifts that we been given, so yes, Virgin Mary can dispense Grace to us

Napsack, you did not answer my question to you about Why did Virgin Mary have to SUFFER a SWORD THROUGH her Immaculate Heart for us? Why?

Ufam Tobie

What do mean that I haven’t been given the grace to know or understand the truth? I understand the truth well. Jesus Christ is the Lord and he died fo you and for me. I understand what the Bible says and what it doesn’t say. As for Mary suffering a sword through her heart, I haven’t heard about her suffering like our Lord did upon the cross. I guess that my priorities are on Christ and not Mary. Mary was an ordinary woman chosen for a special purpose. The Bible doesn’t paint another picture contrary to that. Sorry

 

[1234]

A lot of Catholics worship Mary. That may not be the intent of the RCC, but it is the result. Most of the Catholics in the world, the ones who go to church, are not well-educated. They don’t know veneration from worship. They don’t think about the mass when they go to mass. They pray the rosary, and pray to Mary about all their troubles. They pray to the other saints, too, depending on their favorites, and who appears to get the job done. They regard Mary as all-powerful, someone who can get anything from God. They don’t worship God so much as fear him. The type of ‘veneration’ of Mary in any other religion would be called worship. The theology doesn’t matter. It’s what actually takes place.

Hispanics in the southwest have a motto:“In Guad We Trust”.

That sums it up.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

quote=1234;4725111]A lot of Catholics worship Mary. That may not be the intent of the RCC, but it is the result. Most of the Catholics in the world, the ones who go to church, are not well-educated. They don’t know veneration from worship. They don’t think about the mass when they go to mass. They pray the rosary, and pray to Mary about all their troubles. They pray to the other saints, too, depending on their favorites, and who appears to get the job done. They regard Mary as all-powerful, someone who can get anything from God. They don’t worship God so much as fear him. The type of ‘veneration’ of Mary in any other religion would be called worship. The theology doesn’t matter. It’s what actually takes place.

Hispanics in the southwest have a motto:“In Guad We Trust”.

That sums it up.

Sums it up, eh?

Yes, nothing plus nothing equals nothing.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Again, we have ‘perceptions’ and accusations against first “some Catholics” and now we have somebody who has decided to tar and feather ‘Hispanics’ as idolators, complete with a ‘supposed’ quote.

And of course, they’re ‘uneducated’. Too ‘stupid’ to know the difference between ‘veneration’ and ‘worship’.

I don’t think I’m the only person to be, to put it as charitably as possible, disgusted with the blatant bias of 1234.

Ad hominems, baseless accusations, intellectual snobbery, and unfounded assertions all wrapped up into an indictment of those ‘stupid RCs’.

I had wondered how long it would take before the thread deteriorated from actual questioning of Catholic practices (which were well defended) into the typical ‘Catholics are uneducated fools’ that is the inevitable ‘fall back’ position that anti-Catholics must resort to when their ‘reasoned’ arguments are defeated.

I guess I have my ‘answer’, sad to say.

 

[David47]

Tatum ergo

David: I posted some info: You can check it, it was on Wikipedia, about snake handling churches.

So come on.

What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

A ‘false perception’ by some regarding Catholics is making you ‘concerned’ for ‘lurkers’ because, oh dear me, if they even ‘think’ Catholics could worship Mary, what a catastrophe. Far better that Catholics immediately pull back from anything that might be ‘perceived’ (however FALSELY) by anyone.

IOW. . .Even though Catholics are not doing anything wrong, they should be aware that what they do might ‘appear’ to be wrong to some. . .so they shouldn’t do it.

Or are you still going to tell us that because Mr. Jones in Peoria is sure that “them Cat-licks worship Mary, look at all them statues they have full of gold paint and they bow down in front of them”, then by gosh and golly, all us Catholics should get rid of any statues, and forget about doing anything that Mr. Jones thinks is “Mary worship”?

Just checked that web site and I got to say I am glad I dont attend there guess you too. That is not a perception though it happens it is fact.

Hey its your forum do what ever you want or have anyone believe( or perceive) what ever they wish but I do know that Christ would want his Gospel to be put out to all that all may believe. HE died that all may be saved this was his plan that all may be saved. No gosh golly in that----I hope

Yours in Christ

David

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I haven’t forgotten your post, David, but I’m going to say goodnight in a moment.

What is important to me as a Christian, David (yes, like you I am a Christian) is to defend truth when it is attacked.

Accusations that Catholics worship Mary are untruthful and indeed as we have just seen from other posters can be almost hateful. That is certainly a sad shame.

I do suggest that (if you have not already done so) you go back and read through this thread. I had presumed you had done so. If so, you would be more than aware of the Church teaching and you would not be worried about the false perceptions of some, any more than you yourself would be ‘worried’ should you become aware that ‘some people’ are sure that Protestants are secret snake handlers. . .or even snake worshippers. You would say, "But we aren’t. . .and if a person says we are, he’s wrong and it’s HIS problem.’

Well, that’s it, you see.

Those who accuse Catholics of worshipping Mary are flat-out wrong. . . and quite frankly, it’s THEIR problem. Not ours. Once we have explained (and we have, over and over, and charitably too), if they persist in their error, there is simply nothing else we need do further but commend them to the Holy Spirit and pray their eyes are opened and their blindness lifted.

God bless and have a pleasant evening.

 

[Napsack]

Again, we have ‘perceptions’ and accusations against first “some Catholics” and now we have somebody who has decided to tar and feather ‘Hispanics’ as idolators, complete with a ‘supposed’ quote.

And of course, they’re ‘uneducated’. Too ‘stupid’ to know the difference between ‘veneration’ and ‘worship’.

I don’t think I’m the only person to be, to put it as charitably as possible, disgusted with the blatant bias of 1234.

Ad hominems, baseless accusations, intellectual snobbery, and unfounded assertions all wrapped up into an indictment of those ‘stupid RCs’.

I had wondered how long it would take before the thread deteriorated from actual questioning of Catholic practices (which were well defended) into the typical ‘Catholics are uneducated fools’ that is the inevitable ‘fall back’ position that anti-Catholics must resort to when their ‘reasoned’ arguments are defeated.

I guess I have my ‘answer’, sad to say.

I don’t think 1234 said that at all.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

But I do know that Christ would want his Gospel to be put out to all that all may believe. HE died that all may be saved this was his plan that all may be saved. No gosh golly in that----I hope

David, where did you get the idea that Catholics disagreed with this?

 

[Roy5]

MARY AND ST. PAUL

One thing that always has troubled me is that St. Paul wrote so much of the New Testament, and his letters contain considerable theology and much more directed to the early Christian churches, yet he does not mention Mary even once! If Mary is supposed to be so central to our worship - as in the Rosary and elsewhere - why did he omit her completely?

  Apart from the nativity story and the crucifixion scene, Mary seems to play little role in the gospels. In fact, when she appears Jesus almost seems dismissive of her - as in Matthew 12:48, Luke 8:20-21. and John 2:4.

   We all should honor Mary as the mother of Christ. But those deep into Mariology usually carry it far beyond what the gospels suggest.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I don’t think 1234 said that at all.

You don’t, Napsack?

Let’s see. The BLUE is my post, the RED is 1234.

**Again, we have ‘perceptions’ and accusations against first “some Catholics” and now we have somebody who has decided to tar and feather ‘Hispanics’ as idolators, complete with a ‘supposed’ quote. **Hispanics in the southwest have a motto:“In Guad We Trust”. (ad hominem, unfounded assertion.)

**
And of course, they’re ‘uneducated’. Too ‘stupid’ to know the difference between ‘veneration’ and ‘worship’. **Most of the Catholics in the world, the ones who go to church, are not well-educated. They don’t know veneration from worship. (Intellectual snobbery, unfounded accusations, ad hominem. And a near direct quote from the poster)
**
I don’t think I’m the only person to be, to put it as charitably as possible, disgusted with the blatant bias of 1234.

Ad hominems, baseless accusations, intellectual snobbery, and unfounded assertions all wrapped up into an indictment of those ‘stupid RCs’. **A lot of Catholics worship Mary. **(accusation, assertion) **That may not be the intent of the RCC, but it is the result. They don’t think about the mass when they go to mass ( all accusation). They pray the rosary, and pray to Mary about all their troubles. They pray to the other saints, too, depending on their favorites, and who appears to get the job done. (**accusation) and unfounded assertion) ** They regard Mary as all-powerful, someone who can get anything from God. They don’t worship God so much as fear him. The type of ‘veneration’ of Mary in any other religion would be called worship. The theology doesn’t matter. It’s what actually takes place. (accusation, unfounded assertion)
**
I had wondered how long it would take before the thread deteriorated from actual questioning of Catholic practices (which were well defended) into the typical ‘Catholics are uneducated fools’ that is the inevitable ‘fall back’ position that anti-Catholics must resort to when their ‘reasoned’ arguments are defeated.

**

That sums it up.** Yes, it does. The poster has given us his own words.**

 

[David47]

Roy5

One thing that always has troubled me is that St. Paul wrote so much of the New Testament, and his letters contain considerable theology and much more directed to the early Christian churches, yet he does not mention Mary even once! If Mary is supposed to be so central to our worship - as in the Rosary and elsewhere - why did he omit her completely?

Apart from the nativity story and the crucifixion scene, Mary seems to play little role in the gospels. In fact, when she appears Jesus almost seems dismissive of her - as in Matthew 12:48, Luke 8:20-21. and John 2:4.

We all should honor Mary as the mother of Christ. But those deep into Mariology usually carry it far beyond what the gospels suggest.

I tend to agree here having read all the posts it has been very enlightening to some degree but still learning. I will have to study more. As I know some (catholics) that I know personaly seem over the top so to speak.

Yours in Christ

David

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Dear Roy:

I suggest you review this thread as your concerns were adequately addressed and answered several times in the course of this thread.

But I’ll sum quickly.

A. Where is the Scripture that says that all the apostles said, did and taught–and what Jesus said, did, and taught–is contained in Scripture alone? IOW, are you attempting to argue that if St. Paul didn’t say, “pray the rosary” (which BTW is Scriptural in origin), that it’s 'wrong?" Again, please give me the relevant Scripture and the authority of your Church (which must be Jesus’s Church) to make that decision.
B. Did Jesus write a book or found a Church? IOW, is Jesus limited to private interpretation of Scripture or did He establish an authority in His Church (as Scripture tells us).
C. Do Catholics worship Mary? If so, where is the proof in the authentic Catholic teaching --the Catechism–that shows this?

Have a pleasant evening.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Oh, and quickly–the so-called ‘dismissive posts’ are nothing of the kind. First, the title “woman” is a title of respect, not of 'disavowing. Second, in regard to the woman saying “Blessed be the one who nursed you” Jesus does not say, in effect, “Pish tosh, it’s the ones who listen to me who are more important than that ‘vessel’. " The original language is instead, “Yes, and also”. IOW, He agreed with Mary’s blessedness and also let us know we were likewise included in His family. Doesn’t make Mary ‘less important’. Finally, in the 'THESE are my mother, brothers and sisters” Jesus is not saying, “Stay outside, woman” but rather is acknowledging how important his mother and family (not 'blood brothers and sisters as Mary had only one child, Jesus) are (as indeed all good Jewish men would have acknowledged but that even ‘non-family’ could be ‘His family too’. IOW, again, he isn’t saying, “Either Mary is my mother, or my followers are my mother”, but 'both/and", Yes, Mary is my dear Mother, and you can be as dear to me as well if you follow me as she did."

Context, context, context.

And now I will say farewell but I’ll be SURE to check out this thread tomorrow or Wednesday.

 

[CentralFLJames]

MARY AND ST. PAUL

One thing that always has troubled me is that St. Paul wrote so much of the New Testament, and his letters contain considerable theology and much more directed to the early Christian churches, yet he does not mention Mary even once! If Mary is supposed to be so central to our worship - as in the Rosary and elsewhere - why did he omit her completely?

  Apart from the nativity story and the crucifixion scene, Mary seems to play little role in the gospels. In fact, when she appears Jesus almost seems dismissive of her - as in Matthew 12:48, Luke 8:20-21. and John 2:4.

   We all should honor Mary as the mother of Christ. But those deep into Mariology usually carry it far beyond what the gospels suggest.

It would be good to remember that when Paul was speaking and writing he had no idea that what he was writing would become major inspired works in the NT. No apostle had any idea that there would be a “Bible”. Paul and the others mostly thought that Jesus’ return was imminent – before they died. Also, Mary was still alive and under the care of St. John. Her heavenly role is only opened up to our knowledge after she dies and John writes the last book of the NT - Book of Revelation. It is not till the Bible is put together into a formal canon in 382 AD that early Catholic scholars and apologetics and theologian really start to systematically study the OT and NT scripture and discern the larger Marian role from the fullness of what God has revealed to us. There is still probably one more formal Catholic Marian dogma yet to be infallibly proclaimed by the pope for the faithful in fact. Everyting is rapidly coming together now and Jesus is still very much active and at work in His Church.

This is a very important time in history we live in and Mary as both Queen Mother and new Eve still has a large role to play to restore ancient wrongs.

James

 

[David47]

David

But I do know that Christ would want his Gospel to be put out to all that all may believe. HE died that all may be saved this was his plan that all may be saved. No gosh golly in that----I hope
David

Tatum ergo

where did you get the idea that Catholics disagreed with this?

I have not said that Catholics disagreed with this. I said this as a reminder as to what Christ would have us do. It sometimes gets forgotten. And in forums like this it easy to forget what our responsiblities are. We are all to be as Christ and to spread his gospel—it means GOOD NEWS. It should be GOOD NEWS for all and for all who will listen. I will also say again that there a many if not thousands who read these posts and regardless how flippant things are thrown out we all have that same responsibilty to spread HIS gospel.

Yours in Christ

David

 

[Leeann]

(name removed by moderator)

‘Hispanics’ (and the category is so wide as to be almost meaningless in any case) no more as a group worship Mary than any other subset of Catholics.

AHA!!! So there is a subset of Catholics that DO worship Mary!

(I just know I shouldn’t push the “submit”…but I just can’t help it…)

 

[CentralFLJames]

AHA!!! So there is a subset of Catholics that DO worship Mary!

(I just know I shouldn’t push the “submit”…but I just can’t help it…)

No - it was good you pushed that button. With this submittal I believe I do now finally understand the real problem Catholics here are having in getting through to the Protestant fundamentalists in this thread. How ironic. If we can take present company as statistically representative of the whole of fundamentalism it would seem that the real problem here is that Protestant fundamentalists as a group lack the fundamentals of logic, algebra and mathematical set theory. What that means is you all simply can’t form proper logical conclusions from fact.

By the principle of extensionality, two sets are equal if they have the same elements; therefore there can be only one set with no elements. Hence there is but one empty set.

Nullary operations can be confusing for some.

A vacuous truth is a truth that is devoid of content because it asserts something about all members of a class that is empty or because it says “If A then B” when in fact A is false. For example, the statement “all cell phones in the room are turned off” may be true simply because there is no cell phone in the room.

Nice try but this submittal is rejected.

Keep trying though. Odds are if you say enough things as you randomly bump into stuff in the dark you will eventually stumble upon the truth; or at least succeed in saying something funny enough for the rest of us busily praying that you find the light switch to laugh with you rather than succumb to the temptation to laugh at you. Oops… I caved in here but its venial matter.

James

 

[Napsack]

You don’t, Napsack?

Let’s see. The BLUE is my post, the RED is 1234.

**Again, we have ‘perceptions’ and accusations against first “some Catholics” and now we have somebody who has decided to tar and feather ‘Hispanics’ as idolators, complete with a ‘supposed’ quote. **Hispanics in the southwest have a motto:“In Guad We Trust”. (ad hominem, unfounded assertion.)

**
And of course, they’re ‘uneducated’. Too ‘stupid’ to know the difference between ‘veneration’ and ‘worship’. **Most of the Catholics in the world, the ones who go to church, are not well-educated. They don’t know veneration from worship. (Intellectual snobbery, unfounded accusations, ad hominem. And a near direct quote from the poster)
**
I don’t think I’m the only person to be, to put it as charitably as possible, disgusted with the blatant bias of 1234.

Ad hominems, baseless accusations, intellectual snobbery, and unfounded assertions all wrapped up into an indictment of those ‘stupid RCs’. **A lot of Catholics worship Mary. **(accusation, assertion) **That may not be the intent of the RCC, but it is the result. They don’t think about the mass when they go to mass ( all accusation). They pray the rosary, and pray to Mary about all their troubles. They pray to the other saints, too, depending on their favorites, and who appears to get the job done. (**accusation) and unfounded assertion) ** They regard Mary as all-powerful, someone who can get anything from God. They don’t worship God so much as fear him. The type of ‘veneration’ of Mary in any other religion would be called worship. The theology doesn’t matter. It’s what actually takes place. (accusation, unfounded assertion)
**
I had wondered how long it would take before the thread deteriorated from actual questioning of Catholic practices (which were well defended) into the typical ‘Catholics are uneducated fools’ that is the inevitable ‘fall back’ position that anti-Catholics must resort to when their ‘reasoned’ arguments are defeated.

**

That sums it up.** Yes, it does. The poster has given us his own words.**

Now hold on here. i think that you are being a bit too forceful with this whole thing. This is supposed to be for discussion, is it not? 1234 was speaking of those who go to church but may not be well educated (catechised) of the doctrine. Let’s be reasonable here and not so defensive.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

No, Napsack, it is not ‘defensive’ to point out truth, even though the truth might seem unpalatable.

The entire tenor of the post of 1234-and as you see I was not the only one to note it–was that "Catholics worship Mary, most of them because they are uneducated, and as a proof, look at this ‘quote’ from Hispanics’–absolutely no proof given, nothing but the unsupported words and assertions that “they pray to Mary and they think she is all powerful” as though by the mere statement of this, it is an inarguable truth.

The entire post (which I showed to you) was a continual piece of opinion presented as though it were established and documented FACT.

As a Catholic Christian, I know my faith, and I have not only the right but the responsibility to stand up for it in the face of at the least a very clear ‘misunderstanding’ of Catholic teaching as presented by 1234.