To set the Record straight Catholics do not worship Mary!

[Roy5]

Oh yes, Charles, you mention that the early apostles were expecting Jesus to return soon. That’s what the scriptures seem to say, and even today all sorts of sects keep predicting that the ‘signs of the times’ mean the Second Coming is near. I’ve heard that all my life.

As for the book of Revelation, no offense but there are dozens of ways to interpret the symbolism there. Frankly, I don’t put much stock in it. It’s mighty close to occultic literature. One of my grandmothers actually believed that Rome was 'the great whore" (Rev. 17:1; 19:2) and that the Pope likely had 666 inscribed on his belt. Shows you how crazy religious prejudice can be. My Catholic kin had equally silly ideas of their own, pressed upon them by their church.

Oh, yes, it is your emphasis on indulgences that caught my attention. I’m sure you’re aware that Luther, a Catholic monk, challenged the church because Tetzel, sent out by the Vatican, promised indulgences to the faithful who gave generously to build St. Peter’s in Rome. They could lessen the time their loved ones would spend in Purgatory. Maybe I don’t appreciate indulgences enough, but this notion of praying this or that cuts down on the time people spend in Purgatory doesn’t impress me a bit. God must maintain a fantastic accounting/scoring system to keep all this straight.

Well, back to Mary. I continue to honor her but this ‘Queen of Heaven’ business doesn’t impress me, either. Sorry, but I do believe that it came to Christianity via pagan cults and their virgin goddesses. Mary, now in heaven, must be upset, too. Of course, I admit that I don’t know nearly as much about heaven, hell and purgatory as some of those Early Fathers of the church did. I am content to live by faith - amazing grace - and put my trust in Christ and not in any church or creed.

Back to the game.

 

[Napsack]

What you’re saying is really confused and convuluted. First, a person cannot be “labeled” with the term “sola scriptura”. That is not how the word works. People choose to ascribe to it or not, a label is entirely incidental, not an accusation in the face of a great argument. Second, “the Bible disproves that your church contains all truth”, as I said before is circular reasoning unless there is a church appointed by God to interpret Scripture. With this kind of confused thinking, I understand your religious affiliation.

.

For gosh sake, you can’t be this simple minded or stuck on this can you? I KNOW what sola scriptura means okay?? I am merely speaking of those folks (including me) that you claim subscribe to this notion. The claim that you and your church makes about being the one Church founded by Christ upon Peter with the exclusive power to interpret Scripture is completely bogus in my humble opinion. Confused thinking is your circular reasoning of believing that only your church’s authority can be used to prove your church’s authority. SO sorry, God doesn’t work that way.

 

[Napsack]

By whose standard? By whose interpretation and on whose authority?

I ask you again. Do you have a personal relationship with Jesus?

If so, with which Person of Jesus? The Infant Jesus? Jesus of the Nativity?

The Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

 

[adrift]

To make this posting relevant to the thread, let me reiterate. I honor Mary as the mother of Jesus, of course, but all the extra baggage added to her seems overdoing it. No need going over all the same territory, but no one seems to answer this question which has disturbed me over the years: if Mary is so central to our faith how could St. Paul write all those epistles to early Christians, letters steeped in theology and practice, and never once even mention her name??? And I am equally uncomfortable that it took until 1854 to declare the Immaculate Conception (why was that vital to Christianity?) and until 1950 to declare her Assumption. I suspect that when we get to heaven Mary is going to scold those who took this wonderful young Jewish girl and turned her into a goddess. Yes, a goddess. How else could she be Our Lady of this and that, patroness of the USA, and so much more.

The only time that the Church declares something is when doubt is introduced. The Assumption and the Immaculate Conception weren’t invented in 1854 and 1950 just that it was made clear that they had to be believed. They were accepted centuries before those years. If you make it to heaven, you will have to hang your head in shame when you meet the Queen.

Psalm 45: 6-18
Your arrows are sharp; peoples are subject to you; the king’s enemies lose heart. Your throne, O God, stands forever and ever; a tempered rod is your royal scepter. You love justice and hate wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellow kings. With myrrh and aloes and cassia your robes are fragrant; from ivory palaces string music brings you joy.

The daughters of kings come to meet you; the queen takes her place at your right hand in gold of Ophir. Hear, O daughter, and see; turn your ear, forget your people and your father’s house. So shall the king desire your beauty; for he is your lord, and you must worship him

I will make your name memorable through all generations; therefore shall nations praise you forever and ever."

Mary is not a goddess and Catholic do not believe she is. You may believe what you will but your belief is not based on fact.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

For gosh sake, you can’t be this simple minded or stuck on this can you? I KNOW what sola scriptura means okay?? I am merely speaking of those folks (including me)** that you claim subscribe to this notion**. ??? *Either you subscribe to the notion or you don’t *The claim that you and your church makes about being the one Church founded by Christ upon Peter with the exclusive power to interpret Scripture is completely bogus in my humble opinion. You have not made one argument to contradict it. Confused thinking is your circular reasoning of believing that only your church’s authority can be used to prove your church’s authority. SO sorry, God doesn’t work that way.

You could have fooled me. You don’t act like you know what Sola Scriptura means, because if you did, you wouldn’t say things like,
“Catholics call us Sola Scriptura”. How could that be? Either you are or you are not, and if you are, then why are you complaining?

Let’s be clear. Authority rests with Jesus, which was given to the first Apostles. That is where Catholicism derives its authority. It is not circular reasoning, it is an argument of religous authority.

 

[Napsack]

You could have fooled me. You don’t act like you know what Sola Scriptura means, because if you did, you wouldn’t say things like,
“Catholics call us Sola Scriptura”. How could that be? Either you are or you are not, and if you are, then why are you complaining?

Let’s be clear. Authority rests with Jesus, which was given to the first Apostles. That is where Catholicism derives its authority. It is not circular reasoning, it is an argument of religous authority.

It IS circular reasoning and exclusivity.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

It IS circular reasoning and exclusivity.

No, the question of where authority comes from is answered IN Jesus when he gave authority to the apostles before the ascension. It is Jesus

The word circular means a circle. How then does that answer point back to the questioner?

 

[Napsack]

Absolutely not, but the Eastern Orthodox Christians do not venerate her in the same fervor as do Catholics, that is a misconception. They do not refer to her as Queen of Heaven and co-redemptrix and that is not by accident.

 

[Napsack]

That’s fair enough. Point taken.

 

[Napsack]

No, the question of where authority comes from is answered IN Jesus when he gave authority to the apostles before the ascension. It is Jesus

The word circular means a circle. How then does that answer point back to the questioner?

That’s right, it is Jesus. But this is not what you contend. You say that it is the Catholic church as defined by Christ which contains authority. This is the circle. The Roman church looking upon itself to define itself as authority. Circular reasoning.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

That’s right, it is Jesus. But this is not what you contend. You say that it is the Catholic church as defined by Christ which contains authority. This is the circle. The Roman church looking upon itself to define itself as authority. Circular reasoning.

No, I never said that. Where did I say that?

The Church contains Sacred Teaching and Sacred Scripture. The Church is made up of people. Those people are the unbroken apostolic successors of the First Authority, Jesus.

 

[Napsack]

No, I never said that. Where did I say that?

The Church contains Sacred Teaching and Sacred Scripture. The Church is made up of people. Those people are the unbroken apostolic successors of the First Authority, Jesus.

So then the Catholic church has no authority. Got ya.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

So then the Catholic church has no authority. Got ya.

Do you really not understand this? The authority of the Church is derived from Jesus and has been passed on over the course of 2000 years.

You have been told that by more than one person. What is that you are not getting?

 

[Napsack]

Do you really not understand this? The authority of the Church is derived from Jesus and has been passed on over the course of 2000 years.

You have been told that by more than one person. What is that you are not getting?

I know exactly what you are claiming, but when prompted earlier, you stated that you never said that the Roman church contained authority, now you are claiming it again. Which story are you going with?

 

[Angels_Unaware]

I know exactly what you are claiming, but when prompted earlier, you stated that you never said that the Roman church contained authority, now you are claiming it again. Which story are you going with?

No, I did not say that. I said that the Chuch’s authority is derived from Christ. If you are confused, then there it is in plain English.

Jesus breathed on the apostles and they received His authority. That line of authority has not been broken or invalidated throughout Church history, and is alive and well within the people who make up the Church.

 

[Napsack]

No, I did not say that. I said that the Chuch’s authority is derived from Christ. If you are confused, then there it is in plain English.

Jesus breathed on the apostles and they received His authority. That line of authority has not been broken or invalidated throughout Church history, and is alive and well within the people who make up the Church.

Taken straight out of your catecism. Here’s our circular reasoning again.

 

[codebilly]

Do you have a personal relationship with Jesus, if so, with which Person of Jesus? The Infant Jesus? Jesus of the Nativity?

The Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

So you admit that you don’t have a personal relationship with the Infant Jesus or Jesus of the Nativity, yet to my comment:

You can’t approach , let alone embrace, Jesus of the Nativity without encountering Mary.

you say:

Baloney. Would love to see that in Scripture.

And they came with haste, and found Mary, and Joseph, and the babe lying in a manger. - Luke 2:16

The bible therefore states that baby Jesus can only be found with Mary and Joseph.

Is that also “baloney” to you.

Will your clever logic and bible scholarship, and great knowledge
allow you to steal the Holy Infant away from the Blessed Virgin Mother and St. Joseph?

Herod tried the same, but he was not able to separate Jesus from Joseph and Mary’s care.

At least you admit that you don’t know Jesus in the Nativity.

 

[Non_Serviam]

And they came with haste, and found Mary, and Joseph, and the babe lying in a manger. - Luke 2:16

The bible therefore states that baby Jesus can only be found with Mary and Joseph.

Is that also “baloney” to you.

Are you saying that Jesus was accompanied every minute of his waking life by Mary and Joseph, as this is what would be necessary for your statement to be true?

The Bible says He was with Mary and Joseph during His childhood and that Mary is with Him during at least parts of His ministry, but this is the first time I’ve ever heard such a bizarre interpretation of this passage of Scripture.

Is there anyone else who believes this?

 

[CentralFLJames]

Are you saying that Jesus was accompanied every minute of his waking life by Mary and Joseph, as this is what would be necessary for your statement to be true?

The Bible says He was with Mary and Joseph during His childhood and that Mary is with Him during at least parts of His ministry, but this is the first time I’ve ever heard such a bizarre interpretation of this passage of Scripture.

Is there anyone else who believes this?

Why create a strawman? The man made it very clear that he is talking about the infant Jesus not about Jesus as an adult. There are relational nuances. This insight and imagery of a multi-faceted relational love of Jesus comes from Catholic contemplative disciplines used in some religious orders. CodeBilly is using the bible reference to show that one comes to the infant Jesus through the Holy Family. Clearly if one wants a personal relationship with Jesus and wants to “get it all” then one needs to have a relationship with Jesus as a child, as son of man, as suffering servant, as priest, as prophet, as king, as savior and as brother etc. Many Catholics are very deeply spiritual and go well beyond the “I believe - hallelujah brother” sort of spirituality we see in various non-Catholic congregations. This is just an example of that deeper spirituality.

This begs the question how can non-Catholics have a full relationship with Jesus without knowing the infant Jesus since one can not know the infant Jesus without coming to know the infant Jesus as Mary did? This is a strong case for Marian devotional disciplines - focusing on the Gospel through the eyes of Mary and her life example.

This is all extending from deep Catholic spirituality very commonly used in the religious orders. I recognize that this particular insight comes from Carmelite spirituality - the same spirituality that has produced some of the Church’s highest saints. The track record of this deeper spirituality discipline is quite impressive and this particular spirituality even encompasses OT prophets. Here is a short list of some of the better known Carmelite saints: Elias Saint/prophet, Albert of Jerusalem, Cyril of Constantinople, St. John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, Thérèse de Lisieux, St. Teresa Margaret, Simon Stock. There are over 50 more saints, blessed and venerables that have come out of this same spirituality.

Given the track record I would say that you might want to seriously consider what the man is telling you here. What many lay Catholics and virtually all Protestants fail to comprehend is that there are higher rewards and crowns to be gained in heaven. While the least in heaven is infinitely above those that fail to gain heaven within heaven itself there is a hiearchy of reward (that causes no envy since it is all shared in the communion of the saints).

Most of us just want to get to heaven - but this is just a sign of the initial call. As we start to walk that path and form a relationship wtih Jesus we mature in our spirituality and want to go deeper with Jesus. Thus, a more mature spirituality compels us to “be all we can be” spiritually and not only to surrender to Christ but to explore every relational aspect that He will permit us to see. And this is why many Catholics venerate Mary since she can lead us into a deeper spiritual relation with Jesus.

James

 

[Angels_Unaware]

Taken straight out of your catecism. Here’s our circular reasoning again.

Napsack, I suggest you stop using the term circular reasoning, since you fail to comprehend what it means and could be confusing people reading your words.

You might remember I told you to demonstrate that this is circular reasoning by showing us the circle.

A circular reasoning process for authority would identify an authority that once again pointed its finger back at another authority. There is none here. The search for authority in the Catholic Church ends in Jesus. Jesus does not point His finger back at the Church. The Church carries on His authority in a linear fashion. We establish that in the gospels, when Jesus passed on his authority explicitly. Telling someone you have authority ends the search for authority. There is no circular reasoning involved.

The Protestant search for authority points at the Bible, but since the Bible must be interpreted by people, the Bible points back to the private interpreter. At this point the authority of the interpreter is called into question. In most cases, the only authority that interpreter has is that they’ve been taught by someone else. Follow the line of reasoning and you reach Martin Luther, who broke from the Church on the basis of his interpretation of the Bible. That is a circular establishemnt of authority.