To set the Record straight Catholics do not worship Mary!

[Good_Fella]

The veneration of Mary would be supported by the Bible if it was biblical… There is no evidence from Scripture that mary was held in high esteem… if so where? The words full of grace… used of Mary is also used of Saints in general over in Ehp.1. Does this mean that all saints as well have been removed of orginal sin and should be venerated like Mary is?

Paul is telling the Ephesians (1:5-6) that God has determined beforehand that we become his adopted children through Christ in his grace (charis). God has ‘bestowed’ his grace on us and has honoured us with his grace so that we can be saved. The variant for ‘charitoo’ is ‘echaritosen’. Paul is not telling the Ephesians that this grace is lasting with a permanent result. And he doesn’t expect them to equally measure up to the grace each of them have individually received. It is by God’s favour, which the Ephesians have received in equal measure, that their eternal inheritance is assured. But the permanence of the grace that has been bestowed upon them is not guaranteed.

Paul exhorted the Philippians to work out their salvation in “fear and trembling” (2:12). Cooperation with God’s grace, which renders us perfect but does not make us perfect, is necessary in order for us to receive our eternal inheritance as adopted children of God. The Ephesians are expected to persevere in faith to the end. And I doubt all of them did. Thus none of the Ephesians could declare together with Mary: “My spirit rejoices in God my saviour” or in other words ‘Rejoice! I am saved’ ( Lk 1:46). They have not received a “fullness of grace” that makes them perfect and impeccable so that further progress in grace shouldn’t be necessary and their salvation is absolutely assured. After all, the Ephesians were conceived in a state of original sin like the rest of us. They were inclined by a sinful nature to fall from God’s grace at points in their lives.

In Luke 1:28 the variant for ‘charitoo’ is ‘Kecharitomene’ with a capital ‘K’ assuming the form of a noun which serves to substitute Mary’s given name, thereby defining her by her state and position with God. ‘Kecharitomene’ is the passive perfect participle of ‘charitoo’ and means Mary has been endowed with a fullness of grace which has perfected her with a permanent result. God granted Mary this unmerited favour by virtue of her divine maternity. It was fitting that the mother of his Only-begotten Son be created pure and undefiled with no stain of original sin on her soul, that she be sanctified by the Holy Spirit with a lasting grace from the first instant of her conception in accord with the maternal gift that was given to her. Mary’s salvation was guaranteed on account of the holy child she would bear. Indeed, the Almighty has done “great things” for Mary (Lk 1:49).

The first Christians at the church in Jerusalem believed this to be true: that Mary was ‘made’ sinless. Divine favour characterized her very being and sinlessness her very human essence. And for this reason they praised and honoured the Mother of our Lord as an exceptionl human being in the order of God’s grace. She was perceived as one who was permanently restored to Gods image by the gracious sanctification of the Holy Spirit (Isa 61: 10). The words of David, “In sin was I conceived in my mother’s womb,” could not be ascribed to Mary, so the Jewish Christians believed.

Mary never fell from God’s grace, according to Luke, who wrote his gospel at least seven years after Mary’s dormition, and lived up to the full measure of grace that she was endowed with and enriched by. Unlike the Ephesians, who were not permanently made perfect but rendered perfect while momentarily living up to the grace that was bestowed upon them, there was no room for Mary having to make progress in cooperation with God’s grace in this capacity apart from the doubts she may have had and the temptations of the devil she may have had to resist and overcome. But even Jesus was tempted and had his doubts. He cried from the cross: “My God! My God! Why have you forsaken me?” The Son of Man was made perfect by the grace of his substantial union with the Father, but in his divinity he was as fully human as his mother Mary was and thereby relied on the sufficiency of his heavenly Father’s grace to be sinless.

And Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, “Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.”
Luke 1, 42

Mary’s cousin speaks for the whole Christian community at the church in Jerusalem who praised and honoured the Mother of God. The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church joins in the refrain.

“He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption.”
Hyppolytus (ante A.D. 235)

“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair; there is no flaw in Thee and no stain in thy Mother.”
Ephraem (A.D. 370)

“From now all generations will call me blessed.”
Luke 1, 48-49

PAX :harp:

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Scripture, the oracles of God is the most reliable of Gods utterance.
The apostles wrote many books yet you cannot show me where they say to venerate Mary.
The veneration of Mary is extrabiblical. There is no reason at all to believe that the apostles themselves venerated Mary.

There’s a distinction needing made:​

• the veneration itself is post-Biblical
• the principles that govern it, are contained in the Bible

• those that show it to be lawful, & that forbid what is not lawful.

That the apostles venerated Mary is simply incredible - they had far more important things to attend to. There is no point in bothering with her, if basic things such as why Jesus is important is not made clear first. So the NT contains hundreds of references to him, & about a dozen to her.

 

[guanophore]

I’ll restate, Mary of the Bible gave birth to the human nature of Jesus, not the divine nature; therefore the real heresy is to imply that Mary of the Catholic Church gave birth to Jesus in divine nature. Are you sure you are not Bill Clinton?

Oh, dear, Non! You are revisiting the early heresies! Please take a break from CAF, and read up on them. You will find that the statement you just made is the very arguement that resulted in the title Mother of God, given her by the Church. A woman gives birth to a person, not a "nature’. Jesus is one Person, with two natures. She is the mother of His Person.

 

[UtSuShImI]

hi, my name is luis and i’m a portuguese catholic. in general i did like what you wrote. yes, we do worship Mary. i do it every single day. i love to consecrate my life to Her. this pleases God. She is the one who’s gonna defeat satan. God gave the Virgin Mary the power to combat the power of darkness, with the great help of our Arcangel Michael. She is the most humble person who walked on earth and so and due to that humility that satan is gonna be defeated. it’s that example of humility that ultimately is gonna humiliate satan and defeat him.
just a detail, pray for protestants instead of using confrontation. this will only lead to further divisions and resentments. remember, the catholic church is the best way to reach salvation, but not the only one. they also worship the same God and the same Jesus. their purification will have to be more pailful, but they are not doomed.
our obligation is to pray for everyone, including those who don’t believe in God or have different ways of worshiping.
God bless you

MY GOODNESS! Im a Christian, NOT a Catholic… hmmmm How did Mary get power from Jesus? Jesus only chose her to become her physical mother and nothing more! Why is she the one to beat Satan? Jesus is the only way, the truth and the life! ANYONE! I HAVE A VERSE FOR THIS… I WONT EXPECT DENIALS SINCE THIS IS THE BIBLE TALKING!! Romans 16:20 “And the God of Peace will soon crush satan underneath your feet!” Does it say any “Mary” there? of course not! Its God who is gonna defeat satan!

 

[UtSuShImI]

Oh, dear, Non! You are revisiting the early heresies! Please take a break from CAF, and read up on them. You will find that the statement you just made is the very arguement that resulted in the title Mother of God, given her by the Church. A woman gives birth to a person, not a "nature’. Jesus is one Person, with two natures. She is the mother of His Person.

She was only the one chosen to birth Jesus and nothing more! She was conceived by the Holy Spirit
She was mother of Physical Jesus but still Jesus w/o sin
She HAS original sin since she was born from the flesh and flesh of her parents
Jesus didnt have original sin since:
1.) He is GOD!
2.) He is born of the Holy Spirit

 

[UtSuShImI]

Paul is telling the Ephesians (1:5-6) that God has determined beforehand that we become his adopted children through Christ in his grace (charis). God has ‘bestowed’ his grace on us and has honoured us with his grace so that we can be saved. The variant for ‘charitoo’ is ‘echaritosen’. Paul is not telling the Ephesians that this grace is lasting with a permanent result. And he doesn’t expect them to equally measure up to the grace each of them have individually received. It is by God’s favour, which the Ephesians have received in equal measure, that their eternal inheritance is assured. But the permanence of the grace that has been bestowed upon them is not guaranteed.

Paul exhorted the Philippians to work out their salvation in “fear and trembling” (2:12). Cooperation with God’s grace, which renders us perfect but does not make us perfect, is necessary in order for us to receive our eternal inheritance as adopted children of God. The Ephesians are expected to persevere in faith to the end. And I doubt all of them did. Thus none of the Ephesians could declare together with Mary: “My spirit rejoices in God my saviour” or in other words ‘Rejoice! I am saved’ ( Lk 1:46). They have not received a “fullness of grace” that makes them perfect and impeccable so that further progress in grace shouldn’t be necessary and their salvation is absolutely assured. After all, the Ephesians were conceived in a state of original sin like the rest of us. They were inclined by a sinful nature to fall from God’s grace at points in their lives.

In Luke 1:28 the variant for ‘charitoo’ is ‘Kecharitomene’ with a capital ‘K’ assuming the form of a noun which serves to substitute Mary’s given name, thereby defining her by her state and position with God. ‘Kecharitomene’ is the passive perfect participle of ‘charitoo’ and means Mary has been endowed with a fullness of grace which has perfected her with a permanent result. God granted Mary this unmerited favour by virtue of her divine maternity. It was fitting that the mother of his Only-begotten Son be created pure and undefiled with no stain of original sin on her soul, that she be sanctified by the Holy Spirit with a lasting grace from the first instant of her conception in accord with the maternal gift that was given to her. Mary’s salvation was guaranteed on account of the holy child she would bear. Indeed, the Almighty has done “great things” for Mary (Lk 1:49).

The first Christians at the church in Jerusalem believed this to be true: that Mary was ‘made’ sinless. Divine favour characterized her very being and sinlessness her very human essence. And for this reason they praised and honoured the Mother of our Lord as an exceptionl human being in the order of God’s grace. She was perceived as one who was permanently restored to Gods image by the gracious sanctification of the Holy Spirit (Isa 61: 10). The words of David, “In sin was I conceived in my mother’s womb,” could not be ascribed to Mary, so the Jewish Christians believed.

Mary never fell from God’s grace, according to Luke, who wrote his gospel at least seven years after Mary’s dormition, and lived up to the full measure of grace that she was endowed with and enriched by. Unlike the Ephesians, who were not permanently made perfect but rendered perfect while momentarily living up to the grace that was bestowed upon them, there was no room for Mary having to make progress in cooperation with God’s grace in this capacity apart from the doubts she may have had and the temptations of the devil she may have had to resist and overcome. But even Jesus was tempted and had his doubts. He cried from the cross: “My God! My God! Why have you forsaken me?” The Son of Man was made perfect by the grace of his substantial union with the Father, but in his divinity he was as fully human as his mother Mary was and thereby relied on the sufficiency of his heavenly Father’s grace to be sinless.

And Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, “Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.”
Luke 1, 42

Mary’s cousin speaks for the whole Christian community at the church in Jerusalem who praised and honoured the Mother of God. The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church joins in the refrain.

“He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption.”
Hyppolytus (ante A.D. 235)

“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair; there is no flaw in Thee and no stain in thy Mother.”
Ephraem (A.D. 370)

“From now all generations will call me blessed.”
Luke 1, 48-49

Mary had original sin because she was born of the flesh from her earthly father and mother! the woman to bear Jesus was VERY VERY random! If the bible said to venerate Mary, then people of the earth WILL venerate her! I mean, Original Sin came to be when Eve and Adam sinned… so sin came to the world and then came to people to people! EVERYONE IN HISTORY SINNED! EXCEPT GOD

 

[guanophore]

MY GOODNESS! Im a Christian, NOT a Catholic......

Do you imagine that Catholics are not Christian?

hmmmm How did Mary get power from Jesus?

The same way we all do. He gave it to her!

Jesus only chose her to become her physical mother and nothing more! Why is she the one to beat Satan? Jesus is the only way, the truth and the life!

It seems that you are not familiar with the protoevangelion in Genesis.

ANYONE! I HAVE A VERSE FOR THIS… I WONT EXPECT DENIALS SINCE THIS IS THE BIBLE TALKING!! Romans 16:20 “And the God of Peace will soon crush satan underneath your feet!” Does it say any “Mary” there? of course not! Its God who is gonna defeat satan!

Indeed, and because our lives are hidden in Christ, we have this same privilege, as did Mary.

If you last long enough to remain posting here, you will find that you will get quite a bit of denials about how you interpret scripture.

She was only the one chosen to birth Jesus and nothing more! She was conceived by the Holy Spirit
She was mother of Physical Jesus but still Jesus w/o sin

She is the mother of God. That is because Jeuss is God. To sy otherwise is to commit the Nestorian heresy. It boggles the mind how one could say “she was only the one chosen”. Gabriel certainly did not think it trivial, greeting her by the title “Full of Grace”.

And actually, there was a lot “more”.

She was mother of Physical Jesus but still Jesus w/o sin
She HAS original sin since she was born from the flesh and flesh of her parents
Jesus didnt have original sin since:
1.) He is GOD!
2.) He is born of the Holy Spirit

Well, we read it differently , don’t we?

Mary had original sin because she was born of the flesh from her earthly father and mother! the woman to bear Jesus was VERY VERY random! If the bible said to venerate Mary, then people of the earth WILL venerate her! I mean, Original Sin came to be when Eve and Adam sinned… so sin came to the world and then came to people to people! EVERYONE IN HISTORY SINNED! EXCEPT GOD

This is amazing. We have anticatholics here saying that God has determined everything before the foundation of the world, and at the opposite end of the spectrum, other anti-catholics telling us that the selection of the Mother of the second person of the trinity was VERY VERY random.

Why don’t y’all open an anti-catholic forum, and battle it out over there?

 

[Napsack]

I agree they take themselves way too seriously.

Exactly. Poor Mary must have to remind herself from time to time that she isn’t divine after listening to these folks for a while. Geeesh!

 

[Napsack]

You won’t know sad until you encounter Jesus at your final judgement and Mary is sitting next to him and He asks you for an explanation of how you tried to put put your own authority on God’s words and did everything in your power to degenerate Catholics as well as put down Mary as unworthy of veneration. It will be exceedingly sad if your eternity comes down to an act of Mercy and Jesus does not permit Mary to say anything in your defense because you refused to say anyting in her defense and even slandered those who revere and honor her.

Indeed it is sad that you see fit to attack those who desire to “call Mary blessed” and venerate her. Let me give you some advise. You do not control and define the relationships that anyone in The Church has with The Saints anymore so than you control or define the relationships the rest of us have with God. You better come to know too that it’s impossible to have a relationship with Jesus unless you also have one with God the Father and The Holy Spirit - the very same who overshadowed Mary to “let it be done according to [His] Word”. No one enters into a deep and personal relationship with Jesus without meeting the Trinity; and no one gets that far without also meeting The Mother of God. How sad that you do not have a personal relationship with Jesus and His family and His Church.

James

It never changes does it. You accuse wrongly and you do not have the facts. I nor anyone I know attacks Mary or hates Mary. That is utter and abject lies. The model of all Christians and the Mother of our Lord is to be honored. This isn’t about what you continue to say over and over again about what you believe truth is. This is about real sustainable truth found in God’s Holy Word and revealed to us through reasoning in the Holy Spirit and revealed again and again through the ancient traditions. You’ve got many of us wrong my friend.

 

[DLC]

We do not need to have another person pray for because believers today have access to God through Christ. No passage says we must go to a priest to have our sins forgiven either.
1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
NASU

1 Tim 2:4-5
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
NASU

Eph 2:18-19
18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.
NASU

Heb 10:19-22

Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies
NASU

 

[DLC]

The Bible which was written by God came up with sloa Scriptura. No church is the ultimate authority on faith and practice. God is our ruler and guide. It is His church not man’s. He said He would build it and He is one who give us direction and not fallible men.
Paul said for me to live is Christ. Not for me to live is any church.
Phil 1:21

For to me,to live is Christ and to die is gain.
NASU

 

[CentralFLJames]

Scripture, the oracles of God is the most reliable of Gods utterance.
The apostles wrote many books yet you cannot show me where they say to venerate Mary.
The veneration of Mary is extrabiblical. There is no reason at all to believe that the apostles themselves venerated Mary.

Worshipping on Sunday rather than the Sabbath is extra biblical - yet Protestants do it because that was what The Catholic Tradition has been.

Protestantism is extra-biblical - you will find no precedence for authorized rebellion against God’s church in the Bible. Yet Protestants follow the traditions of Korah here to their doom.

Here let me borrow from a prior post of mine in another forum to draw your attention to the pattern of rebellion you are in so you know exactly what the stakes are. Note the profound similarity of the Protestant Rebellion to Korah’s rebellion in Num. 16:1-35. Korah incited a “protest”, a “protestant” rebellion against God’s chosen authority (Moses) in an effort to confuse the distinction between the ministerial and universal offices of priesthood. But Korah and his followers perished - swallowed by the earth and delivered directly to hell, his hundreds of followers incinerated by holy fire from heaven. This effort to blind the distinctions between the priests and the laity is still pursued by dissidents of The True Church today.

Protestants should be wise to self discern that they have all the same errors that were severely warned about in Jude 1:11 – "Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah. Protestant’s have an incomplete and deficient worship without the Eucharist (just as Cain’s worship was unacceptable); Protestants try to twist God’s word against His People and their leaders preach error to derive income from it (just as did Ballam); and Protestant’s rebelled against God’s appointed authority (just as did Korah). Take heed - there is no escaping the similarity.

So don’t try to use this “extra biblical” argument when you live in such a glass house unless you are claiming to be biblical in following the same errors as your predecessors did.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

RELIGION V. SUPERSTITION

 To begin with, I am happy to honor Mary. But many Catholics go well beyond that, and some clearly center their faith more around Mary than Christ. 

  The real issue in American religion today, whether we're speaking of traditional Catholics or evangelical Protestants, is that they are stuck with various superstitions that are part of their basic faith. Mary and the doctrines of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption make Catholicism look pagan to many observers. Add to this transubstantiation, veneration of saints, infallibility of the Pope on faith and morals, etc., and Catholicism can seem like a throwback to medieval times and totally out of whack with the 21st century.

   Many evangelical Protestants, and some traditional Catholics, are heavy into demonology, 'last days' escatology, and dubious types of faith healing. (Yes, I believe that faith can help heal, but....).  

    There are millions of well-educated astude Catholics and Protestants who pay little attention to the myths of Christianity, strip away the outside layer of superstition, and seek to follow the tenets and example of Christ. They don't waste their time arguing about fine theological points that are basically unimportant. When Christ was asked how we can enter life eternal, he didn't answer with a creed or a dogma but with the two great commandments - love God and one another - and the parable of the Good Samaritan.

    Most of the mainline Protestant denominations - e. g., Methodists, Presbyterians, UCC, Episcopalians, Lutherans, Disciples of Christ and ABC (American Baptist Convention) -

believe in the big tent, a broad church fellowship that welcomes a wide spectrum of people with varying interpretations of the Christian faith. And they don’t claim to be ‘the one true church’. More and more Catholics have the same outlook on religion.

Give it up Roy. Your divide and conquer approach to attacking The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is useless. You can’t possibly compare the legion of Protestant faiths to be in communion with each other - much less cherry pick “more enlightened” members of the Catholic Church and assimilate them into your vision for a Borg collective. You are uttering pure demonic babble in place of the clarity and simplicity of the one truth faith. As spokesman for a 'big tent" religion with no standard of truth or lie you are in grave danger of losing your soul preaching this sort of obtuse minded religious pluralism. God did not construct His Church to be the new tower of Babel that you would make it out to be.

James

 

[DLC]

How would the Jew have understood this passage? John would not in v. 47 that when one believes he has eternal life and then say one must do something else to be saved. John never taught that communion saves us. In Chapter 20:31 John states why he wote his book. He wrote so that we might be saved by faith in Christ the Messiah.

Q. Have you come to the place in your spiritual life where you know for sure that if you die that you will be heaven with God?

 

[Napsack]

Worshipping on Sunday rather than the Sabbath is extra biblical - yet Protestants do it because that was what The Catholic Tradition has been.

Protestantism is extra-biblical - you will find no precedence for authorized rebellion against God’s church in the Bible. Yet Protestants follow the traditions of Korah here to their doom.

Here let me borrow from a prior post of mine in another forum to draw your attention to the pattern of rebellion you are in so you know exactly what the stakes are. Note the profound similarity of the Protestant Rebellion to Korah’s rebellion in Num. 16:1-35. Korah incited a “protest”, a “protestant” rebellion against God’s chosen authority (Moses) in an effort to confuse the distinction between the ministerial and universal offices of priesthood. But Korah and his followers perished - swallowed by the earth and delivered directly to hell, his hundreds of followers incinerated by holy fire from heaven. This effort to blind the distinctions between the priests and the laity is still pursued by dissidents of The True Church today.

Protestants should be wise to self discern that they have all the same errors that were severely warned about in Jude 1:11 – "Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah. Protestant’s have an incomplete and deficient worship without the Eucharist (just as Cain’s worship was unacceptable); Protestants try to twist God’s word against His People and their leaders preach error to derive income from it (just as did Ballam); and Protestant’s rebelled against God’s appointed authority (just as did Korah). Take heed - there is no escaping the similarity.

So don’t try to use this “extra biblical” argument when you live in such a glass house unless you are claiming to be biblical in following the same errors as your predecessors did.

James

This stuff is becoming laughable. They are going to start calling you the Catholic circus if you keep on with stuff like this.

 

[ron77nyc]

Focus people--------focus. People have worshipped the Blessed Mother when they didn’t know any better but today we know better.

 

[DLC]

What about what Eph 2:8-9. It says we are saved by grace through faith and not works. If the Bible says works do not save then works do not save.

 

[AshleyBelle]

What about what Eph 2:8-9. It says we are saved by grace through faith and not works. If the Bible says works do not save then works do not save.

The Catholic Church does not teach that works save either, so no worries

 

[Good_Fella]

Exactly. Poor Mary must have to remind herself from time to time that she isn’t divine after listening to these folks for a while. Geeesh!

Please explain exactly how we have elevated Mary to the status of divinity instead of ranting and wasting precious paper. Perhaps we can clear up any grave misunderstanding on your part. :thankyou:

 

[CentralFLJames]

How would the Jew have understood this passage? John would not in v. 47 that when one believes he has eternal life and then say one must do something else to be saved. John never taught that communion saves us. In Chapter 20:31 John states why he wote his book. He wrote so that we might be saved by faith in Christ the Messiah.

Q. Have you come to the place in your spiritual life where you know for sure that if you die that you will be heaven with God?

For goodness sake why would anyone in his right mind care to wonder how the Jews would have understood this passage when they are the same people who persecuted Christians and did not even recognize the scripture fulfillment of their own Messiah and resorted to bribery to get somone to betray Jesus so they could turn Christ over for Crucifixion???

Christ taught many things are necessary for salvation. Starting with REAL baptism, followed by repentance and total faith in God and in loving God and neighbor as self, and DOING as he commanded in helping the sick, downtrodden, widows (Mercy and Charity) and eating His body and loving one’s enemies etc.

So don’t try to teach the utter lie that one is saved by faith alone - its a LIE and part of the “easy believism” heresy that most all Protestants have bought into.

Questions for you:

1. Do you presume to judge for God that you are saved before God judges you saved?
2. Have you repented of your sins and been baptised?
3. Have you followed ALL of Christ’s commandments?
4. Have you produced good works (fruits of Christian Charity)?
5. Do you reject Christ’s Church - the Catholic Church?

Here is what John says of those who do not follow the apostolic teachings:
He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. – John 12:48

And here is what Jesus says to those who reject His ecclesial authorities (The Catholic Clergy):

He that hears you [apostolic authority] hears me; and he that rejects you rejects Me; and he that rejects Me rejects He who sent Me.-- Luke 10:16

James