To the clerics that are against the TLM

[Ham1]

And we wonder why our seminaries and convents are empty. And we’re stunned that the majority of practicing Catholics don’t believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

Yeah… the “Spirit of Vatican II” has been a roaring success.

I think it’s good to remind ourselves of what Pope Pius XI said about ecumenical councils:

“The first part belongs to the devil, the second to the men, and in the third the Holy Spirit straightens everything out.”

Clearly, the one who communicates to us the will of the Holy Spirit is the Pope. We need to be understanding of this and recognize that if the Pope does or does not issue a “universal” indult, we should support his decision as the right decision.

And as to the lack of vocations and general ignorance of the Eucharist, we should remember that this things are getting profoundly better in many parts of the country. Compare the US now to 20 years ago. How are most of the top bishops compared to 1987? More orthodox. How many orders and orthodox dioceses are seeing stong improvements in vocations? A lot. The pendulum is clearly swinging towards greater orthodoxy and will continue to do so aided by many of the fine new bishops and good young priests. There is good reason to be optimistic.

 

[ReConverted]

OK, all joking aside… if the rabid anti-Latin Mass crowd is so cock-sure that the Mass of Paul VI is where it’s at, then I challenge 'em to pony up and put their money where their mouth is.

But I doubt they will.

Wow, just discovered your blog thanks to this thread.
Great stuff!
May God bless you!!!

 

[Trident59]

Caveman,

I totally agree with your statements. What really gets me is that there is absolutely “0” leadership at the top levels in the Vatican. Nothing but statements containing strong language such as; may, could, should. Where are the will, shall and similar words? Oh, yes, “collegiality”. Lets all run the worlds largest Christian denmonination by committee.

“What do you say, AB and Cards, shall we vote on this issue? No, lets vote on shall we vote”.(Maybe)

Sorry, just had to vent a little. I’ll try to tone it down, Moderator.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Caveman,

I totally agree with your statements. What really gets me is that there is absolutely “0” leadership at the top levels in the Vatican. Nothing but statements containing strong language such as; may, could, should. Where are the will, shall and similar words? Oh, yes, “collegiality”. Lets all run the worlds largest Christian denmonination by committee.

“What do you say, AB and Cards, shall we vote on this issue? No, lets vote on shall we vote”.(Maybe)

Sorry, just had to vent a little. I’ll try to tone it down, Moderator.

But this betrays a COMPLETE misunderstanding of what Catholic thought on this topic is! Collegiality isn’t rule by committee! What do you think the ecumenical councils were? Bishops don’t merely exist to carry out papal wishes, they are themselves sucessors to the apostles too. In a body, with the Holy Father at their head, they can teach infallibly. AND popes CANNOT micromanage the Church. It’s impossible. The Petrine Office was, prior to the advent of air travel, TV, the web, etc., basically a court of last resort. Bishops might not hear from the Holy Father much after their appointment and they were expected to run their own diocese.

And again, on your assessment that there is “0” leadership at the Vatican, well, just because things aren’t being done the way YOU would do them (or I, for that matter) doesn’t mean we don’t have “good” leadership. This is the toughest job on the planet, there’s no heavier cross except for Christ’s, and the Holy Spirit picks the man for the job (and he didn’t me you or me).

 

[ncjohn]

They are afraid of the “faithful” who hate the Tridentine Mass.

These are the vocal “spirit of Vatican II” folk that run the offices in most parishes and the chancery offices. They hold the purse strings, host the benefit galas, make big donations to the cathedral funds.

And this is a large part of why many people are so against the TLM–this spirit of superiority and arrogance on the part of many who believe it is the “only” liturgy and that anyone who prefers the vernacular is essentially stupid, lazy, or irreverent.

I am one of those of “that certain age” who grew up with the TLM pre-Vatican II. Whether I personally prefer the TLM or the NO is irrelevant, as I believe both should be available to those who prefer them.

I am not uneducated or badly catechized. I am not unorthodox. I happen to hear the call of God much more clearly in my native tongue than I ever did at the TLM, though I served at many of them and can still recite most of the prayers of both the altar server and priest.

The plain and simple fact is that it has nothing to do with “spirit of Vatican II” or lack of catechesis. The majority of people just prefer to pray in a language they understand. And they feel more a part of a Mass in a language they understand. If you sense a “hatred” of the Latin Mass, it almost surely comes from being constantly assaulted with statements that one is essentially deficient in some way for prefering the vernacular. Beaten up long enough and often enough one can indeed develop an anitpathy toward the source of the beating when one just had a preference before.

It is really no different now than it was when the language was changed from Greek to Latin. It was done because people wanted their Mass in the language they understood. The fact that is stayed as Latin is primarily because of the rise of clericalism in medieval times, which allowed the priest to have knowledge the laity didn’t possess and put him at an advantageous position as mediator between them and God.

I have no beef whatsoever with the TLM or those who prefer it. But I think anyone who believes that people are going to abandon the NO Mass and flock to the TLM if the universal indult comes about is seriously deluded. It has been shown in many areas, including ours, where it was available, that once the novelty wore off, within a few months there were seldom more than a handful attending. People just want the Mass in their own language as can be seen by the fact that they by and large won’t even go for a Latin NO.

I truly hope that the indult does eventually come through so everyone can have a legitimate choice on their preference. But can’t we please get by this belief that anyone is more or less holy, or more or less faithful, or more or less intelligent because of which language they prefer their liturgy in? If we can accept that Eastern Rite liturgies are so different than either of them, why is it that we have to have so much animosity within our one Latin Rite? There really is room for both for men of good will and strong devotion.

Peace,

 

[Corki]

And this is a large part of why many people are so against the TLM–this spirit of superiority and arrogance on the part of many who believe it is the “only” liturgy and that anyone who prefers the vernacular is essentially stupid, lazy, or irreverent.

Where did I ever say that the people who prefer the NO are essentially stupid, lazy or irreverent?

I am not writing from any spirit of superiority or arrogance so I don’t know to whom you are referring.

I simply offered my opinion (and clearly labled it such) as was asked for in the OP and then backed it up with experience from my own diocese. I am not even a traditionalist under the definition of this forum.

So unless you are going to clarify your comment, please keep the name-calling and character assaults to yourself.

By the way, if you don’t understand enough Latin to pray with the Mass, you have no one to blame but yourself. Even the Pope’s latest release (March 13) reiterates that the faithful need to know the basic prayers of the Church in Latin.

 

[Caveman]

But Rohr (and charity forbids saying what I think about this priest) is not representative of the vast body of the clergy, nor is the particular Cardinal Archbishop representative of the Bishops, nor is what they allow to be done to the NO Mass to be confused with the NO Mass itself. Yet these things are trotted out as though they are normative. They aren’t.

…and the faithful contact said Cardinal to correct the abuses, and are greeted with silence. So the faithful contact the USCCB to correct the abuses, and are greeted with silence.So the faithful contact the Apostolic Nuncio to correct the abuses, and are greeted with silence. So the faithful contact Rome to correct the abuses, and are greeted with silence.

I’m not sure which is worse… that these abuses happen to begin with, or that it is normative for those in positions of authority to look the other way? [emphasis mine]

 

[JKirkLVNV]

…and the faithful contact said Cardinal to correct the abuses, and are greeted with silence. So the faithful contact the USCCB to correct the abuses, and are greeted with silence.So the faithful contact the Apostolic Nuncio to correct the abuses, and are greeted with silence. So the faithful contact Rome to correct the abuses, and are greeted with silence.

I’m not sure which is worse… that these abuses happen to begin with, or that it is normative for those in positions of authority to look the other way? [emphasis mine]

I do not know that Rome fails to correct abuses (Bear06 asserts that they got a good bishop by the concerted effort of the laity). It may simply be the case that Rome will not hurl the thunderbolts that some people want.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

By the way, if you don’t understand enough Latin to pray with the Mass, you have no one to blame but yourself. Even the Pope’s latest release (March 13) reiterates that the faithful need to know the basic prayers of the Church in Latin.

NCJohn didn’t complain about the use of some Latin, he simply proposed a possible reason for some people’s antipathy. You’ll note that he said he DID understand Latin, having served the old Mass as a boy.

 

[thechrismyster]

at least the “N.O.” people have the respect and understanding of English to capitalize ‘Bishop’ and ‘Pope’

 

[bear06]

…and the faithful contact said Cardinal to correct the abuses, and are greeted with silence. So the faithful contact the USCCB to correct the abuses, and are greeted with silence.So the faithful contact the Apostolic Nuncio to correct the abuses, and are greeted with silence. So the faithful contact Rome to correct the abuses, and are greeted with silence.

I’m not sure which is worse… that these abuses happen to begin with, or that it is normative for those in positions of authority to look the other way? [emphasis mine]

Yes, Kirk is right. We were not met with silence. We got a great bishop who is making some great strides although there’s a long way to go. We did it both by moving the laity and giving Rome irrefutable evidence.

It’s not enought to contact the Nuncio. You must reply irrefutable evidence. I’m hoping the Vatican sees You Tube but it’s still probably better to burn these abuses onto a nice point and click CD. Cardinal Ratzinger told our group that this was the way to go and that we should tell others in the same situation to burn it all onto a point and click CD-rom and send it off to all of the congregations in Rome. It provided irrefutable evidence as to the abuses. It provided far more than letters to the Vatican about abuses with no irrefutable proof from people they don’t know if they can trust. When you see a clown mass with Fr. X saying the Mass, it’s a little hard for him to say it didn’t happen or that it was exaggerated.

 

[Uxor]

at least the “N.O.” people have the respect and understanding of English to capitalize ‘Bishop’ and ‘Pope’

I think you have it backwards…

 

[Patrick2340]

But Rohr (and charity forbids saying what I think about this priest) is not representative of the vast body of the clergy, nor is the particular Cardinal Archbishop representative of the Bishops, nor is what they allow to be done to the NO Mass to be confused with the NO Mass itself. Yet these things are trotted out as though they are normative. They aren’t.

Really? They aren’t? Perhaps not in your part of the country, but I’ve been witness to so many liturgical abuses in so many different parishes that my stomach hurts. I’ll give you this much, some of the abuses perpetrated by Fr. Rohr and his liturgists at the referenced Mass are a bit on the flamboyant side. However, I’ve seen many priests change the Canon of the Mass on their own whim. I’ve seen people standing around talking after Mass with no consideration for the Real Presence behind them on the altar. I’ve seen polka Masses ad nauseam here in Wisconsin. They are always held outdoors, people wear shorts, tank tops, and flip flops. They sit in lawn chairs while a polka band plays the music. Holy Communion is distribute soley by the EMEs in large bowls. The bowls are passed around and everyone self communicates. I’ve seen Masses where banners and dancers make their way up the aisles during the introductory procession and the recessional.

Do I attend the TLM? Certainly. Do I attend the Novus Ordo? More often than I would like to. It would certainly be more bearable if the abuses were sharply curbed. There are more than a dozen parishes within driving distance of my house. Each one is worse than the other (and I’ve been to them all). There are several parishes within driving distance of my parents house two states away. Nothing is any different there than here.

No, I would argue from my broad experience that liturgical abuse IS the norm. A Novus Ordo Mass celebrated reverently without abuse is the exception.

 

[ncjohn]

Where did I ever say that the people who prefer the NO are essentially stupid, lazy or irreverent?

This was a generic statement that is typical of a great many of those who post in these threads. I have no way of knowing if it applies to you or not and did not mean it to specifically apply to you.

I am not writing from any spirit of superiority or arrogance so I don’t know to whom you are referring.

This one however is a different matter. If you read your comments, with the very derogatory and condescending statements that those who “hate” the TLM are “spirit of Vatican II”, and “liberals voting with their feet”, and the implications that they are conniving to destroy it in some way, it definitely does come across with an air of superiority. Perhaps it was not meant that way, but the tone would be hard to take any other way. I am a pretty non-judgmental person and seldom get into speculating about people’s motivations, but the tone there was pretty uncalled for in my opinion.

By the way, if you don’t understand enough Latin to pray with the Mass, you have no one to blame but yourself. Even the Pope’s latest release (March 13) reiterates that the faithful need to know the basic prayers of the Church in Latin.

As I said, and Kirk noted, I do indeed know far more than the basic prayers in Latin. Latin is not an issue for me, or for many, many people of great devotion and good will.

It wasn’t about hating the TLM at all until people started trying to cram it down people’s throats as the only acceptable liturgy. While I personally do still hope for the indult, I know many people who are quite rabidly against it now who didn’t used to care much one way or another. In many ways those promotiing it have become their own worst enemies.

Peace,

 

[Caveman]

Yes, Kirk is right. We were not met with silence.

Then can you explain to me the recent abomination (REC)happening in Los Angeles? Everything from violating the rubrics of the Mass of Paul VI, to outright heresy. The press is reporting it on an hourly basis… yet nothing happens.

Does anyone want me to bring up Nancy Pelosi, and how a cardinal and two archbishops looked the other way while she rcvs Holy Communion? As well as John Kerry, Ted Kennedy, etc, etc. Those instances were reported ad nauseum. Yet nothing happens.

How about Archbishop Weakland giving almost half a million dollars in hush money to his boyfriend, and oddly enough, his “punishment” is to be named the Archbishop Emeritus of Milwaukee?

We need to face facts, gang. The odd priest/bishop that’s officially punished by Rome is the rarity. Rome looking the other way while The Holy Father’s own directives are spat upon is the normative.

 

[drafdog]

The Mass in the vernacular is here to stay. The Latin Mass will always be with us but will be used much less frequently than Mass in the vernacular. Most people are not offended by the idea that the Second Vatican Council approved the change to the vernacular. Liturgical scholars with far more knowledge and wisdom than you or I have constructed an Order for the vernacular that is in keeping with tradition and has a beauty of its own. The bishops are not affraid of the Latin Mass nor do they whine, moan or complain about it. They just want Rome to leave them alone to administer their own dioceses as the successors to the Apostles that they are. Truth be known, the Pope has enough on his plate administering his own diocese without having his finger in every other Bishop’s pie.
Leave off complaining and do something constructive. Write some really good plain chant for the Mass and other devotions. Work in the CCD program in your parish. Join the St. Vincent de Paul Society. Work with the program for healing the victims of pedophile priests. But leave off complaining.
Thank you.
Matthew

 

[bear06]

Then can you explain to me the recent abomination (REC)happening in Los Angeles? Everything from violating the rubrics of the Mass of Paul VI, to outright heresy. The press is reporting it on an hourly basis… yet nothing happens.

Does anyone want me to bring up Nancy Pelosi, and how a cardinal and two archbishops looked the other way while she rcvs Holy Communion? As well as John Kerry, Ted Kennedy, etc, etc. Those instances were reported ad nauseum. Yet nothing happens.

How about Archbishop Weakland giving almost half a million dollars in hush money to his boyfriend, and oddly enough, his “punishment” is to be named the Archbishop Emeritus of Milwaukee?

We need to face facts, gang. The odd priest/bishop that’s officially punished by Rome is the rarity. Rome looking the other way while The Holy Father’s own directives are spat upon is the normative.

I’ve been begging people in the L.A. area for a few years now to get it all on a CD-rom and send it off to Rome. Don’t trust in the hope that they’ve seen it in the news. All I hear is how it won’t work and very few people try it. From what I know, the very few diocese that have tried it have been successful.

I do think that Rome will tread very carefully because, unfortunately, these guys have attracted quite a cult following and I’m sure Rome will try and do things as carefully as possible to avoid and all out schism of people like the Mahonyites.

One can pooh-pooh the idea but one might want to try it first. All I know is that it worked here and that the then Cardinal Ratzinger told us to spread to the word to the diocese that have trouble. If somebody doesn’t want to do it, fine. I also think they should stop whining about it then but that’s just my personal opinion.

 

[Caveman]

Truth be known, the Pope has enough on his plate administering his own diocese without having his finger in every other Bishop’s pie. Thank you.
Matthew

Matthew, Isn’t being the ultimate authority here on earth, even down to the parish level, was part of the job description of the Supreme Pontiff of The Holy Catholic Church.

Or has Creeping Protestantism (aka, “collegiality”) negated that as well?

 

[Caveman]

I’ve been begging people in the L.A. area for a few years now to get it all on a CD-rom and send it off to Rome. Don’t trust in the hope that they’ve seen it in the news.

Bear, seriously bro… a CD-rom?

Not only the secular media… but The Tidings (the diocesan paper in LA) have been shouting from the rooftops the goings on at the REC (and the Archdiocese of LA in general) for years and years.

Do you expect me to believe that Rome is really that blind… or could it be that looking the other way to abuse and scandal is the norm?

 

[bear06]

Bear, seriously bro… a CD-rom?

Not only the secular media… but The Tidings (the diocesan paper in LA) have been shouting from the rooftops the goings on at the REC (and the Archdiocese of LA in general) for years and years.

Do you expect me to believe that Rome is really that blind… or could it be that looking the other way to abuse and scandal is the norm?

So basically you’re going to pooh-pooh the idea without trying it and continue to whine. Sigh! Why don’t you jot off a little little to the Pope and tell him it was a stupid idea?

I don’t know why it worked but the current Holy Father said it was the way to go AND we’ve also had independent confirmation from the Congregation for the Bishops that this did the trick. The two biggest comments from both of these people was that it was the biggest thing to ever hit Rome and everyone had seen it and that it was the most helpful thing they had ever seen from the laity.

I didn’t put the CD together. It was another member of our coalition who took all of our video, audio, letters, etc and burned them for us. I have nothing to gain from promoting it. I already got my gift. If you want a better chance at stopping the abuses, you might want to try something that’s been shown to be effective. We didn’t know what had worked until we got word from Cardinal Ratzinger and had the independent confirmation from a person somebody just accidently ran into in Rome.