To the clerics that are against the TLM

[Caveman]

I do think that Rome will tread very carefully because, unfortunately, these guys have attracted quite a cult following and I’m sure Rome will try and do things as carefully as possible to avoid and all out schism of people like the Mahonyites.

One can pooh-pooh the idea but one might want to try it first. All I know is that it worked here and that the then Cardinal Ratzinger told us to spread to the word to the diocese that have trouble. If somebody doesn’t want to do it, fine. I also think they should stop whining about it then but that’s just my personal opinion.

1st paragraph - why “tread lightly”? There wasn’t much of a quandry when it came to excommunicating Archbishop Lefevbre. Why Does Cardinal Mahony’s brand of disobedience rate special treatment?

2d paragraph - I should have mentioned this to you earlier, but I didn’t. Sorry! Anyhow, I tried what you’ve suggested. I contacted two different diocesan priests here who were party to scandal and error, and I rcvd letters from them telling me (essentially) to go pound sand. I made copies of those letters and sent them to my bishop. I rcvd a letter from him telling me to essentially go pound sand. FYI, one priest had a mermber of the laity give the sermon, the other attacked Pope Pius XII personally from the pulpit… remember that whole Hitler’s Pope nonsense? The second priest was advocating that garbage during a sermon.

I made copies of all those letters and sent a copy each to both the Apostolic Nuncio and the CDF (headed by then Cardinal Ratzinger).

That was nine years ago. I still haven’t got a response.

 

[Caveman]

So basically you’re going to pooh-pooh the idea without trying it and continue to whine. Sigh! Why don’t you jot off a little little to the Pope and tell him it was a stupid idea?

No need to sigh or roll your eyes. We’re all adults here. I have tried what you’ve suggested, and so have dozens of others I’ve met through the years. In all honesty, you are the first I’ve ever heard of where it bore any fruit. So please don’t state that your idea has never been tried.

BTW, “whining” only applies if there isn’t any concrete evidence. What I, and others, have shown on this thread… are solid examples of scandal, error and abuse.

Since when was exposing evil defined as whining?

 

[Uxor]

Then can you explain to me the recent abomination (REC)happening in Los Angeles? Everything from violating the rubrics of the Mass of Paul VI, to outright heresy. The press is reporting it on an hourly basis… yet nothing happens.

Does anyone want me to bring up Nancy Pelosi, and how a cardinal and two archbishops looked the other way while she rcvs Holy Communion? As well as John Kerry, Ted Kennedy, etc, etc. Those instances were reported ad nauseum. Yet nothing happens.

How about Archbishop Weakland giving almost half a million dollars in hush money to his boyfriend, and oddly enough, his “punishment” is to be named the Archbishop Emeritus of Milwaukee?

We need to face facts, gang. The odd priest/bishop that’s officially punished by Rome is the rarity. Rome looking the other way while The Holy Father’s own directives are spat upon is the normative.

I didn’t know that about Archbishop Weakland…good grief!

 

[JKirkLVNV]

1st paragraph - why “tread lightly”? There wasn’t much of a quandry when it came to excommunicating Archbishop Lefevbre. Why Does Cardinal Mahony’s brand of disobedience rate special treatment?

Cardinal Mahoney hasn’t done something specifically listed in the canons as incurring automatic excommunication (latae sentia) as did Archbishop Lefevbre. And the pope didn’t excommunicate him, he excommunicated himself, the Holy Father simply confirmed it.

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

BTW, “whining” only applies if there isn’t any concrete evidence. What I, and others, have shown on this thread… are solid examples of scandal, error and abuse.

Since when was exposing evil defined as whining?

NO gives the priest more authority to set the tone of the Mass. In almost every Mass I have attended this has been done appropriately and sensibly. However if you give the footsoldier in the front line the right to make his own decisions, inevitably there will be some bad ones, clown Masses and the like.

There always has to be a balance between directing everything from the centre and giving subordinates enough authority to be effective. This applies whether you are a business, an army, or a Church. That the balance may be slighty wrong is a problem, but it is not a scandal nor an outrage.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Really? They aren’t? Perhaps not in your part of the country, but I’ve been witness to so many liturgical abuses in so many different parishes that my stomach hurts. I’ll give you this much, some of the abuses perpetrated by Fr. Rohr and his liturgists at the referenced Mass are a bit on the flamboyant side. However, I’ve seen many priests change the Canon of the Mass on their own whim. I’ve seen people standing around talking after Mass with no consideration for the Real Presence behind them on the altar. I’ve seen polka Masses ad nauseam here in Wisconsin. They are always held outdoors, people wear shorts, tank tops, and flip flops. They sit in lawn chairs while a polka band plays the music. Holy Communion is distribute soley by the EMEs in large bowls. The bowls are passed around and everyone self communicates. I’ve seen Masses where banners and dancers make their way up the aisles during the introductory procession and the recessional.

Do I attend the TLM? Certainly. Do I attend the Novus Ordo? More often than I would like to. It would certainly be more bearable if the abuses were sharply curbed. There are more than a dozen parishes within driving distance of my house. Each one is worse than the other (and I’ve been to them all). There are several parishes within driving distance of my parents house two states away. Nothing is any different there than here.

No, I would argue from my broad experience that liturgical abuse IS the norm. A Novus Ordo Mass celebrated reverently without abuse is the exception.

I would argue from MY broad experience that the abuse is NOT the NORM (except in California), so I guess we’re at a stalemate. Really, though, the issue goes much deeper with “traditionalists.” Lots of them (I distinguish them by putting quotation marks around the word) believe that the NO, a valid Mass promulgated by the Holy Father, the Vicar of Christ on earth, and celebrated by him and his sucessors, is defective or inherently, ontologically flawed (“flawed of itself”). That’s the arrogance that I and others have mentioned. I don’t want to hang OUT with or be around people like that, who feel that way about the Church or the Pope or the Council. I don’t want to hang out with people who complain that we got the number of candles wrong or that there’s no lace on the priest’s alb or that it’s a scandal that Rosemary receives in the hand and aren’t we holier because we receive on the tongue and really, what’s the point if it isn’t in Latin? Where am I more likely to run into those people? The TLM, naturally. Is that an indictment of the TLM? Nope, not in the least. It’s just the biggest part of why I don’t go (and the fact that I prefer the liturgy in the language in which I think and reason).

 

[Caveman]

Cardinal Mahoney hasn’t done something specifically listed in the canons as incurring automatic excommunication (latae sentia) as did Archbishop Lefevbre. And the pope didn’t excommunicate him, he excommunicated himself, the Holy Father simply confirmed it.

I don’t seem to recall calling for Cdl Mahony’s excommunication. I simply asked why should anyone have to “tread lightly”, especially in light of the way Rome came down with both feet on Archbishop Lefevbre.

By the way, just for discussions sake, Rohr’s use of “Mother-Father God” is not only pagan in nature (pantheism… plus a few other ism’s I could name if time permitted, it’s heretical. And Cdl Mahony gives his silent consent.

Hmmm… maybe excommunication isn’t all that bad of an idea after all? At least an official censure.

 

[bear06]

No need to sigh or roll your eyes. We’re all adults here. I have tried what you’ve suggested, and so have dozens of others I’ve met through the years. In all honesty, you are the first I’ve ever heard of where it bore any fruit. So please don’t state that your idea has never been tried.

BTW, “whining” only applies if there isn’t any concrete evidence. What I, and others, have shown on this thread… are solid examples of scandal, error and abuse.

Since when was exposing evil defined as whining?

You’ve burned evidence onto a CD-Rom and sent it a majority of the congregations in Rome and the Papal Nuncio? Soffy if I didn’t get that impression by your “seriously?” comment.

BTW, I didn’t say that it had never been tried. It has been tried and proven successful in a couple of other dioceses too.

Also, I’m fine with whining as long as it’s accompanied by some serious action.

 

[Corki]

T
This one however is a different matter. If you read your comments, with the very derogatory and condescending statements that those who “hate” the TLM are “spirit of Vatican II”, and “liberals voting with their feet”, and the implications that they are conniving to destroy it in some way,
it definitely does come across with an air of superiority.

**If you read my post, you would see that the liberals “voting with their feet” were people in my own parish, who I know personally. They are the same people who were very angry that our current pastor reinstated regular times for Confession, who heartily endoresed the previous pastor’s call for women priests and who hated the fact that we now have Adoration once a week. To call them liberals is not a false accuasation. They would characterize themselves as Liberal Catholics. They left and each and every one of them has told me that the reason they left was the conservativeness of the current pastor. How is calling that “voting with their feet”, derogatory? As for the spirit of VII, it isn’t a slur invented by the conservative members of the Church but a phrase coined by the innovatively inclined to rationalize all kinds of new and sometimes odd experiments. **

As I said, and Kirk noted, I do indeed know far more than the basic prayers in Latin. Latin is not an issue for me, or for many, many people of great devotion and good will.

And yet you also said "The majority of people just prefer to pray in a language they understand."

That implies that they don’t understand the prayers in Latin, in spite of the Church’s exhortation over and over in the documents of Vatical II and since that the faithful should know the basic prayers of the Church in Latin.

 

[Caveman]

NO gives the priest more authority to set the tone of the Mass. In almost every Mass I have attended this has been done appropriately and sensibly. However if you give the footsoldier in the front line the right to make his own decisions, inevitably there will be some bad ones, clown Masses and the like.

There always has to be a balance between directing everything from the centre and giving subordinates enough authority to be effective. This applies whether you are a business, an army, or a Church. That the balance may be slighty wrong is a problem, but it is not a scandal nor an outrage.

Malcolm, and that’s the fatal flaw with the NO. By it’s very nature, it has the opportunity for error and abuse built in.

Seriously, when was the last time you saw the TLM spawn a Clown Mass, or a Puppet Mass, or a Holloween Costume Mass?

If you leave the door open for ambiguity, don’t be surprized by what you get.

 

[bear06]

I don’t seem to recall calling for Cdl Mahony’s excommunication. I simply asked why should anyone have to “tread lightly”, especially in light of the way Rome came down with both feet on Archbishop Lefevbre.

By the way, just for discussions sake, Rohr’s use of “Mother-Father God” is not only pagan in nature (pantheism… plus a few other ism’s I could name if time permitted, it’s heretical. And Cdl Mahony gives his silent consent.

Hmmm… maybe excommunication isn’t all that bad of an idea after all? At least an official censure.

A Mahonyite schism would be MUCH bigger than the Lefebvre schism.

I’m personally hoping that the Vatican gives Mahony a prestigious yet invisible job in the Vatican as has been done with others and soon!

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I don’t seem to recall calling for Cdl Mahony’s excommunication. I simply asked why should anyone have to “tread lightly”, especially in light of the way Rome came down with both feet on Archbishop Lefevbre.

By the way, just for discussions sake, Rohr’s use of “Mother-Father God” is not only pagan in nature (pantheism… plus a few other ism’s I could name if time permitted, it’s heretical. And Cdl Mahony gives his silent consent.

Hmmm… maybe excommunication isn’t all that bad of an idea after all? At least an official censure.

Listen, as far as HE the Cardinal Archbishop of LA or Richard Rohr, we’re not far off being on the same page. But you’ve no firm proof that the Cardinal believes it or espouses it, etc., whereas it’s a rather manifest fact that the Archbishop did what he did.

 

[Caveman]

You’ve burned evidence onto a CD-Rom and sent it a majority of the congregations in Rome and the Papal Nuncio? Soffy if I didn’t get that impression by your “seriously?” comment.

BTW, I didn’t say that it had never been tried. It has been tried and proven successful in a couple of other dioceses too.

Also, I’m fine with whining as long as it’s accompanied by some serious action.

Didn’t I **JUST POST **that I had sent copies of the letters to both the Apostolic Nuncio and the the CDF? Yep… I sure did. [caps for emphasis]

Now I realize that a simple letter on paper may not be as high tech as a CD-rom… but it still conveys information, doesn’t it?

 

[Uxor]

I would argue from MY broad experience that the abuse is NOT the NORM (except in California), so I guess we’re at a stalemate. Really, though, the issue goes much deeper with “traditionalists.” Lots of them (I distinguish them by putting quotation marks around the word) believe that the NO, a valid Mass promulgated by the Holy Father, the Vicar of Christ on earth, and celebrated by him and his sucessors, is defective or inherently, ontologically flawed (“flawed of itself”). That’s the arrogance that I and others have mentioned. I don’t want to hang OUT with or be around people like that, who feel that way about the Church or the Pope or the Council. I don’t want to hang out with people who complain that we got the number of candles wrong or that there’s no lace on the priest’s alb or that it’s a scandal that Rosemary receives in the hand and aren’t we holier because we receive on the tongue and really, what’s the point if it isn’t in Latin? Where am I more likely to run into those people? The TLM, naturally. Is that an indictment of the TLM? Nope, not in the least. It’s just the biggest part of why I don’t go (and the fact that I prefer the liturgy in the language in which I think and reason).

I don’t think they are complaining about candles or lace. Yes they do complain about Communion in the mouth, so do I. I’ve attended the NO Masses for 30 years, I never took Communion in the hand or will I ever.

One of my complaints in regards to the NO Mass is the Memorial Acclamation. I venture to guess if you would ask Catholics in the US that attend the NO Mass what the Mystery of Faith is, they would respond with the Acclamation, which is not the Mystery of Faith. Some say , it is bad translation to me that is still not an excuse. The Priest is leading by saying "Let us proclaim the Mystery of Faith and so the congregation responds with the Memorial Acclamation. Also when does anyone pronouce a Memorial Acclamation when that person is present. I think it leads to confusion whether Christ is actually present on the Altar. And I can’t believe in 40+ years nobody complains about this except traditionalists. I think when the Priest leads us and we respond together it should be in truth and with the actual meaning of those words.
.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

**"And yet you also said “The majority of people just prefer to pray in a language they understand.”

**I firmly believe this to be the truth. I think that a lot of people will come to the TLM on occasion, but will mainly stay with the NO for this reason.

We could solve the problem and have one united liturgy by simply translating the TLM into the vernacular. Then every parish could have the Mass in both languages.

 

[Caveman]

A Mahonyite schism would be MUCH bigger than the Lefebvre schism.

So? What difference does that make? I can’t recall the quote word for word… but I seem to recall The Holy Father stating something along the lines of “the Truth isn’t determined by a popularity contest”.

I also seem to recall something in Sacred Scriptures saying something along the lines of “cutting away the weeds before they kill the good fruit”.

So id Cdl Mahony (or anyone else of his mindset) decide to go into schism… let 'em. The Church has endured much worse.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I don’t think they are complaining about candles or lace. Yes they do complain about Communion in the mouth, so do I. I’ve attended the NO Masses for 30 years, I never took Communion in the hand or will I ever. This only demonstrates what I’m talking about: “I know better than the Church,” “They should pay attention to ME because the way I do it is manifestly correct.” Incidentally, I receive on the tongue as well.

One of my complaints in regards to the NO Mass is the Memorial Acclamation. I venture to guess if you would ask Catholics in the US that attend the NO Mass what the Mystery of Faith is, they would respond with the Acclamation, which is not the Mystery of Faith. Some say , it is bad translation to me that is still not an excuse. The Priest is leading by saying "Let us proclaim the Mystery of Faith and congregation respond with the Memorial Acclamation. Also when does anyone pronouce a Memorial Acclamation when that person is present. I think it leads to confusion whether Christ is actually present on the Altar. And I can’t believe in 40+ years nobody complains about this except traditionalists. I think when the Priest leads us and we respond together it should be in truth and with the actual meaning of those words.
.

The Mystery of Faith in the NO IS the acclamation, so this only goes to a “traditionalist” tendency to split hairs (again, with the legitimate authority of the Church that promulaged the Mass). The assertion that it leads to a confusion as to whether Christ is present on the altar is patently absurd. “Savior of the World, save us, for by Your Cross and Resurection you have saved us,” even it it’s briefer form, “Lord, by Your Cross and Resurection, You have set us free. You are the Savior of the World” are CLEARLY addressed to the PRESENT Christ. Even "Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again, the most problematic since it doesn’t exist in the original Latin, but which IS a mystery to be pondered, can be seen to address Christ in much the same way the Priest might introduce anyone else for a lesser display of appreciation.

 

[Uxor]

The Mystery of Faith in the NO IS the acclamation, so this only goes to a “traditionalist” tendency to split hairs (again, with the legitimate authority of the Church that promulaged the Mass). The assertion that it leads to a confusion as to whether Christ is present on the altar is patently absurd. “Savior of the World, save us, for by Your Cross and Resurection you have saved us,” even it it’s briefer form, “Lord, by Your Cross and Resurection, You have set us free. You are the Savior of the World” are CLEARLY addressed to the PRESENT Christ. Even "Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again, the most problematic since it doesn’t exist in the original Latin, but which IS a mystery to be pondered, can be seen to address Christ in much the same way the Priest might introduce anyone else for a lesser display of appreciation.

Sorry, I disagree the Memorial Acclamation is not the Mystery of Faith.

 

[Caveman]

Listen, as far as HE the Cardinal Archbishop of LA or Richard Rohr, we’re not far off being on the same page. But you’ve no firm proof that the Cardinal believes it or espouses it, etc., whereas it’s a rather manifest fact that the Archbishop did what he did.

Agreed that we aren’t that far off. But I do disagree with you (and as I’ve stated before, reasonable men can disagree) concerning if Cdl Mahony has committed an excommunicable offense.

His silent consent is both in the case of Rohr, and many others that I’m sure you are knowledgeable of, as well.

The Archdiocese of LA seems to be the epicenter for everything heretical in the United States. At a minimum, a Canonical Trial would seem in order, which is more than Abp Lefevbre got.

BTW, I attend an Indult, but I do credit Apb Lefevbre with saving the TLM. But that’s a different post for a different day!

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Sorry, I disagree the Memorial Acclamation is not the Mystery of Faith.

That’s how it is written in the NO.