To The Jews: Suppose You Found Out Christ Truly Exists...

[Carl_Nicholas]

Carl Nicholas;3820178:

Hi Carl,

Actually, I wasn’t referring to you. You’re not the first or only person to PM me, I’ve had quite a few over the last few months of being here.

Anyway, glad I could be of help!

Hi Sepharad,
Not to beat this up

I did not claim you were referring to me, however I was one of the Catholic’s who did in fact ask you of the Judaism view of my eternal fate. So I wanted to respond

It does not surprise me that you have " quite a few " given the wealth of knowledge you seem to have in Judaism ( on a Catholic site )

And Yes , YOU INDEED WERE VERY HELPFULL TO ME.
Thank You

God bless,
Carl

 

[Carl_Nicholas]

I personally, would not want Christians to stop believing in Jesus, as long as they are gentiles.

I have seen a belief in Jesus (regardless of whether it is true or false) change the lives of Gentiles. I remember that woman who was executed, Karla Faye Tucker…her life truly was changed because of a belief she came to adopt, in Jesus.

If a belief in Jesus can change a person from a murderer to a decent person, from a drug addict to a clean, sober person, I’m all for it!

My ONLY complaint is when they try to say JEWS must accept this belief also. We have the Torah, and I have seen Jews who went from nonreligious to Torah observant, have changed lives too!

But if Jesus “works” to make nonJews into better people, far be it from me to object!

So yes, what I am saying is: even if it is a false belief, it seems to work for many people. This is why no matter what I may believe about Jesus, I never, ever try to talk a Gentile into giving up Christianity…because the alternative could be FAR worse.

 

[MHalsey]

The point I was trying to make is that Christianity as a whole, ultimately decided that none of them were bound to keep Torah.

By Torah and Jewish standards, this amounts to following a new religious path, which therefore places it under deut. 13 for Jews.

Keeping Torah=Judaism

Not keeping Torah=another religion

But that’s not what Deut. 13 teaches. It warns against someone urging you to follow other gods. That is not the case with Jesus. He neither claims there is another God, nor does he come, in His words:

“… to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” Mt 5:17,18.

And it is not until He claims to **be **God that they decide he needs to die.

So, Deut. 13 cannot stand as an indictment against Jesus. The interpretation from a Christian standpoint is that Jesus fulfills the Law and the Prophets, not opposes them.

 

[Sepharad]

But that’s not what Deut. 13 teaches. It warns against someone urging you to follow other gods. That is not the case with Jesus. He neither claims there is another God, nor does he come, in His words:

And it is not until He claims to **be **God that they decide he needs to die.

So, Deut. 13 cannot stand as an indictment against Jesus. The interpretation from a Christian standpoint is that Jesus fulfills the Law and the Prophets, not opposes them.

But by “fulfilling” the Law, doesn’t Christianity interpret that to mean that, because of that, Christians are not bound to keep it anymore?

Judaism has always taught that the Torah, given to Moses, would never change or be abolished. So if Christianity teaches that the Torah is done away with because Jesus “fulfilled” it, then that IS a new religion.

You do not deny that Christianity is a separate religion from Judaism?

The RESULT of Jesus’ teachings was that a new religion developed, and that new religion teaches that the Jews are no longer God’s people, and that the Torah no longer needs be kept.

 

[Lapell]

Just to be clear, I’ve been on religious message boards of all sorts for about a decade and a half and, when you’ve been around for a while, you’ll notice that rarely get involved in ‘religious’ discussions - basically, it’s that I’m not now terribly interested in what people believe or why they believe it and I’m certainly not terribly interested in discussing what I believe or why I believe it.

Neither am I particularly interested in talking about my life, my family or my feelings.

With all these things, to re-hash the old cliché, “been there, done that, bought . . . . . .”

What I am rather interested in, because I spend and have spent a lot of time living in ‘culturally Catholic’ (though not exactly ‘religious’ societies), are the consequences of what people believe.

If I were searching for Jesus Christ, a message board would be the last place I’d start.

Maybe, but then I still wonder… what prompts you to take part in this thread? You could simply have ignored this thread and gone to another one, for one thing…

 

[Kaninchen]

Maybe, but then I still wonder… what prompts you to take part in this thread? You could simply have ignored this thread and gone to another one, for one thing…

Sense of humor.

 

[Sepharad]

Sense of humor.

I understand what you mean, but I wonder if the truly committed religious people will understand what you mean, and might they take it the wrong way?

I enjoy debating; I’ve enjoyed it ever since high school on the debate team. And since the world’s religions are subjects I know the most about, I like to debate that subject. And since the two religions I know the most about are Orthodox Judaism and traditional Roman Catholicism (because I was raised an OJ and half my family is Catholic), I find its easier for me to debate and discuss those two religions.

And yes, it can be fun, and there have been times I’ve gotten a kick out of it. But remember that many people here take this very, very seriously. Its not a game or joke to them (I sometimes forget that myself!)

 

[Kaninchen]

I understand what you mean, but I wonder if the truly committed religious people will understand what you mean, and might they take it the wrong way?

I enjoy debating; I’ve enjoyed it ever since high school on the debate team. And since the world’s religions are subjects I know the most about, I like to debate that subject. And since the two religions I know the most about are Orthodox Judaism and traditional Roman Catholicism (because I was raised an OJ and half my family is Catholic), I find its easier for me to debate and discuss those two religions.

And yes, it can be fun, and there have been times I’ve gotten a kick out of it. But remember that many people here take this very, very seriously. Its not a game or joke to them (I sometimes forget that myself!)

I was asked about my participation on this thread, not on CAF. My response was about participation on this thread, not CAF. There are many issues on CAF that I take very seriously, I did not take this thread seriously.

One of the reasons that I don’t discuss Judaism on non-Jewish boards is that I tend to go out of my way not to criticize other Jews or claim to be more or less virtuous than other Jews.

 

[Carl_Nicholas]

But by “fulfilling” the Law, doesn’t Christianity interpret that to mean that, because of that, Christians are not bound to keep it anymore?

Judaism has always taught that the Torah, given to Moses, would never change or be abolished. So if Christianity teaches that the Torah is done away with because Jesus “fulfilled” it, then that IS a new religion.

You do not deny that Christianity is a separate religion from Judaism?

The RESULT of Jesus’ teachings was that a new religion developed, and that new religion teaches that the Jews are no longer God’s people, and that the Torah no longer needs be kept.

My newest friend ( Sepharad ) Hello again,

With little armor ( and less religious education ) I will reply on my own and do not claim to speak for the Catholic church.

The Torah, is not done away with , I hear readings and teachings all the time at my Sunday mass. ( i call it the Old Testament ) Rather I think it IS " a part " but not ALL that makes up my current Faith.

I claim that ( Catholic christianity ) is Not a new or seperate religion than Judaism, Rather it is the continuation of the very religion you speak of.

The result of Jesus’ " birth, life, crucifiction, and resurection" not just teachings, was not that a new religion developed, It was that the Same religion continued. Furthermore, the Torah INDEED, is not only kept ( with some exeptions like sacrificing ) ( I am fully aware you do not share this belief with me ) but is a big part of my current belief as a Catholic.

 

[MHalsey]

But by “fulfilling” the Law, doesn’t Christianity interpret that to mean that, because of that, Christians are not bound to keep it anymore?

I depends on what you mean by the law.

36 “Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?”
37 He said to him, “You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
38 This is the greatest and the first commandment.
39 The second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
40 The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.”
MT 22:36-40

Is this the law that has been abolished? If these are the foundation of the whole law, and we are bound by them, what law is it that Christians have abolished?

Judaism has always taught that the Torah, given to Moses, would never change or be abolished. So if Christianity teaches that the Torah is done away with because Jesus “fulfilled” it, then that IS a new religion.

First, what is the Torah? Is this another word for the Law? And where does it say would never change? What do you mean by change?

Also, as I said before, Deut. 13 does not say anything about a new religion. It only speaks of anyone who urges you to follow a different god or gods. Jesus, regardless of whether Christianity is a *new *religion or not, does not do that. He never urges the Jews to follow another god. He claims to be God, but that’s not necessarily the same thing.

You do not deny that Christianity is a separate religion from Judaism?

I would say that Christianity has its roots in Judaism. But by your definition, what exactly is Judaism? Is it simply following the Torah? Or is it something else? Not trying to be antagonistic here. But it would me to know where your coming from, and thus help the discussion.

The RESULT of Jesus’ teachings was that a new religion developed, and that new religion teaches that the Jews are no longer God’s people, and that the Torah no longer needs be kept.

That’s not quite accurate. As far as I know, the Catholic Church still holds that the Jews are the chosen people. I believe it was John Paul II who said, they are our elder brothers in faith (Might not be accurate, but it was something like that.)

As before, I am not sure what you mean by Torah.

 

[Sepharad]

I was asked about my participation on this thread, not on CAF. My response was about participation on this thread, not CAF. There are many issues on CAF that I take very seriously, I did not take this thread seriously.

One of the reasons that I don’t discuss Judaism on non-Jewish boards is that I tend to go out of my way not to criticize other Jews or claim to be more or less virtuous than other Jews.

OK, sorry, I misunderstood.

 

[Sepharad]

I depends on what you mean by the law.

36 “Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?”
37 He said to him, “You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
38 This is the greatest and the first commandment.
39 The second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
40 The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.”
MT 22:36-40

Is this the law that has been abolished? If these are the foundation of the whole law, and we are bound by them, what law is it that Christians have abolished?

First, what is the Torah? Is this another word for the Law? And where does it say would never change? What do you mean by change?

Also, as I said before, Deut. 13 does not say anything about a new religion. It only speaks of anyone who urges you to follow a different god or gods. Jesus, regardless of whether Christianity is a *new *religion or not, does not do that. He never urges the Jews to follow another god. He claims to be God, but that’s not necessarily the same thing.

I would say that Christianity has its roots in Judaism. But by your definition, what exactly is Judaism? Is it simply following the Torah? Or is it something else? Not trying to be antagonistic here. But it would me to know where your coming from, and thus help the discussion.

That’s not quite accurate. As far as I know, the Catholic Church still holds that the Jews are the chosen people. I believe it was John Paul II who said, they are our elder brothers in faith (Might not be accurate, but it was something like that.)

As before, I am not sure what you mean by Torah.

But, you see, in Judaism, we do not believe God would ever take human form. Its a big rule for us. (see Deut. 4)

By Torah I generally mean the Chumash–the Five Books of Moses. That’s the Written Torah which most people mean when they speak of “the Torah”.

So if Jesus claimed to be a deity, then to us, that IS a new religion. Because Judaism never taught that God would take on human form. Judaism was different in that regard from the many pagan religions surrounding us in ancient times, many of whom did believe that their gods took on human form, or that their kings were divine.

 

[MHalsey]

But, you see, in Judaism, we do not believe God would ever take human form. Its a big rule for us. (see Deut. 4)

By Torah I generally mean the Chumash–the Five Books of Moses. That’s the Written Torah which most people mean when they speak of “the Torah”.

So if Jesus claimed to be a deity, then to us, that IS a new religion. Because Judaism never taught that God would take on human form. Judaism was different in that regard from the many pagan religions surrounding us in ancient times, many of whom did believe that their gods took on human form, or that their kings were divine.

I know that. That’s why they wanted him dead because to them he blasphemed. Note, Jesus did not claim to be A deity, he claimed to be **THE **deity.

But in Deut. 4, the warning to the Hebrews is to not fashion for themselves an idol in any form. It doesn’t say anything about God never taking a human form. God can do anything he wants. Or is He bound by what you believe He can or cannot do?

And actually, in reference to the other cultures, it wasn’t that their gods took on human form, it was that they had fashioned *idols *in human (and other) form that they then worshiped.

Christianity is also different than other religions. We have God becoming man and dying for the redemption of all humanity.

 

[Sepharad]

I know that. That’s why they wanted him dead because to them he blasphemed. Note, Jesus did not claim to be A deity, he claimed to be **THE **deity.

But in Deut. 4, the warning to the Hebrews is to not fashion for themselves an idol in any form. It doesn’t say anything about God never taking a human form. God can do anything he wants. Or is He bound by what you believe he can or cannot do?

And actually, in reference to the other cultures, it wasn’t that their gods took on human form, it was that they had fashioned *idols *in human (and other) form that they then worshiped. Not these gods taking on human form. That was simply not possible because they weren’t gods to begin with.

Christianity is also different than other religions. We have God becoming man and dying for the redemption of all humanity.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree then. Your understanding of the Torah in Deut. 4 is quite different from that of the religion to whom it was given.

 

[MHalsey]

We’ll just have to agree to disagree then. Your understanding of the Torah in Deut. 4 is quite different from that of the religion to whom it was given.

While I agree we do disagree on interpretation, you cannot say it was not given to us as well. Jesus quoted a great deal from the Book of Deuteronomy. Like what was said before, Christians, at least Catholic Christians, do not reject the Old Testament. We just see it through the Light of the Holy Spirit.

Isn’t it possible that the Hebrews misunderstood. I mean it wouldn’t be the first time, nor the last time that the Hebrews misunderstood the mind of God. I’m not saying we as Christians always understand, but the thing is that when you interpret something like Deut. 4, which basically says the Hebrews did not see his form, and therefore God would never take on human form, You are basically declaring you know the mind and will of God. If you say he cannot, then you limit his *unlimited *power.

 

[Sepharad]

While I agree we do disagree on interpretation, you cannot say it was not given to us as well. Jesus quoted a great deal from the Book of Deuteronomy. Like what was said before, Christians, at least Catholic Christians, do not reject the Old Testament. We just see it through the Light of the Holy Spirit.

Isn’t it possible that the Hebrews misunderstood. I mean it wouldn’t be the first time, nor the last time that the Hebrews misunderstood the mind of God. I’m not saying we as Christians always understand, but the thing is that when you interpret something like Deut. 4, which basically says the Hebrews did not see his form, and therefore God would never take on human form, You are basically declaring you know the mind and will of God. If you say he cannot, then you limit his *unlimited *power.

We don’t see it as Christians were “given” our Bible. We tend to see it more as you “adopted” it (and then re-interpreted it).

No, I don’t think the Hebrews misunderstood. We stood at Sinai and were given the Law. we had plenty of teachers (Moshe Rabbeinu being the foremost) and prophets.

I really don’t think we “had it wrong” for thousands of years, and then some former polytheist Gentiles came along a couple thousand years later and just *happened *to suddenly “get it right”.

Sorry if that comes across as rude, but you cannot even imagine how what you said sounds to me as a Jew. I’m sure you didn’t intend it that way however.

 

[Carl_Nicholas]

We don’t see it as Christians were “given” our Bible. We tend to see it more as you “adopted” it (and then re-interpreted it).

No, I don’t think the Hebrews misunderstood. We stood at Sinai and were given the Law. we had plenty of teachers (Moshe Rabbeinu being the foremost) and prophets.

I really don’t think we “had it wrong” for thousands of years, and then some former polytheist Gentiles came along a couple thousand years later and just *happened *to suddenly “get it right”.

Sorry if that comes across as rude, but you cannot even imagine how what you said sounds to me as a Jew. I’m sure you didn’t intend it that way however.

It was not the " former polytheist gentiles " that came along ( That could be the understatement of the century. IT WAS JESUS CHRIST who came along.

God bless,
Carl

 

[Sepharad]

It was not the " former polytheist gentiles " that came along ( That could be the understatement of the century. IT WAS JESUS CHRIST who came along.

God bless,
Carl

I was referring to the Gentile followers of Jesus, who had been most likely in polytheistic religions before they adopted Christianity.

 

[reen12]

I have always wanted this question answered.

The second Temple was destroyed in 70 CE.
What would be the response, if a member
of Catholicism claimed that here was “proof” -
that there was now a perfect sacrifice?
That this sacrifice is re-offered, daily, in
churches across the globe. That Christian
priesthood now replaces the Levitical
priesthood.

I have no idea how to counter these assertions.

reen12

 

[Valke2]

I have always wanted this question answered.

The second Temple was destroyed in 70 CE.
What would be the response, if a member
of Catholicism claimed that here was “proof” -
that there was now a perfect sacrifice?
That this sacrifice is re-offered, daily, in
churches across the globe. That Christian
priesthood now replaces the Levitical
priesthood.

I have no idea how to counter these assertions.

reen12

THe response would be that the concept of an allinclusive perfect sacrifice has nothing to do with Judaism and that the christian concept of Jesus’ sacrifice is something alien to the Jewish belief in the sacrificial system that was in effect while the Temple stood.