Today you will be with me in paradise

  • Thread starter Thread starter fineca
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
40.png
dulcissima:
I am curious where you are getting that “bosom of Abraham” is transalted from the Hebrew “sheol”. Since Luke was written in Greek, it was “kolpon Abraam”, literally the bosom of Abraham.

This is an honest question, since I am by no means an expert.
I’m getting this from a Bible study I attended. The main info was: sheol occurs 65 times in the Old Testament of the Bible. It is translated “grave” 31 times, “hell” 31 times’ and “pit” 3 times. It was the place of the righteous and unrighteous dead. **Sheol **is a Hebrew word. The equivalent in Greek is **hades **which occurs 11 times in the New Testament of the Bible and is translated “hell” 10 times and “grave” 1 time. It was the temporary abode of the unrighteous dead. Tartarus occurs one time in the New Testament and is translated “hell.” It was the place for the fallen angels. **Pit **occurs 9 times in the New Testament and is the abode of the fallen demons. Gehenna occurs 12 times and is always translated “hell” which is the Greek form of the Hebrew “hinnom” (city dump) and was prepared for the devil and his angels. Abraham’s bosom occurs twice and is the place of the righteous dead who died before the time of Christ’s resurrection. Paradise occurs 3 times and at Christ’s ascention, the righteous were transferred from within the earth to God’s presence. Hope this helps a bit.

I have all the Bible verses for each occurence if anyone is interested.
 
I once had this discussion with a Seventh Day Adventist, to show that the soul lives on after death. His comment was “Paradise isn’t heaven. It’s a Persian word for a hunting preserve.”

My reply was, "So in your opinion, what Jesus meant was, ‘How ‘bout after the crucifyin’s over we go out to my huntin’ cabin and see kin we shoot us a deer?’"http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif
 
Be Blessed,
This is an awesome thread! Thanks you. 👍

One question:
Is Paradise Purgatory then?
We agree there are two places in the after life. Heaven and Hell. And, as a Catholic, I believe in a third place. Purgatory…
Is Paradise yet a fourth place? :confused:

If this should be a new thread, I will make it so.
Peace,
CS
 
40.png
ChristsSoldier:
Be Blessed,
This is an awesome thread! Thanks you. 👍

One question.
Is Paradise Puratory then? We agree with there being 2 places. Heaven and Hell. And as a Catholic, I believe in a 3rd place. Purgatory… Is Paradise yet a fourth place? :confused:

If this should be a new thread, I will make it so.
Peace,
CS
Actually, we don’t teach that heaven (or hell) is a place. Heaven is defined as “the Beatific Vision.” Purgatory is a purging of the effects of sin. There is no teaching that specifically talks about places and times in the after life.
 
From the Catechism:

*1027 This mystery of blessed communion with God and all who *are in Christ is beyond all understanding and description. Scripture speaks of it in images: life, light, peace, wedding feast, wine of the kingdom, the Father’s house, the heavenly Jerusalem, paradise: “no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him.”
 
I guess to me this looks like an instance of making something more complicated than it needs to be. If I am wrong on this one, please someone knowlagable point this out to me.

Wherever one member of the trinity is, the whole trinity is, since they are three in one. If the theif was in the presense of God the Father, then he is in the presense of Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

There are things we can “know” but not fully comprehend, and many times the concepts involved in the Trinity seem to be cheif among them. I don’t mean for this to be a non-answer answer, but honestly, we aren’t going to have all of the answers right here and now.

Also, if you think about this, God exists outside of time. Jesus has always existed because he is part of the trinity, as well as the Holy Spirit. We try to limit things we know to how we think time works, but time doesn’t mean much to God.

I don’t think Jesus meant to tell the man, “today you will be with me in some undefined in between state.”

Somehow that doesn’t sound particularly comforting.
 
40.png
fineca:
The Bible doesn’t describe the bosom of Abraham as a place of punishments, and Christ refers to this place as paradise, so how could it be equivalent to purgatory?
You must have missed my opening sentence:

“In his discourse to the Greeks, Josephus points out that…”

What I offered is based on the teaching of Josephus, a Jewish historian. Much of what Josephus spoke to the Greeks about is not in the OT. Some of it is.

But regarding your question… “how could it be equivalent to purgatory?” Purgatory is not only a place/process of temporal punishment, but also a place/process of gaining the sanctifying grace necessary for one to be able to be in God’s presence. Adam and Eve were in Paradise, but they did not have the sanctifying grace necessary to live eternally in God’s immediate presence.

In this sense, purgatory and paradise are places one could call “lesser heavens” where one attains that holiness without which “no man can see God.”

Thal59
 
40.png
fineca:
This sounds logical, but it doesn’t make sense that Hades or Sheol would’ve been called both bosom of Abraham and Paradise, since the two former ones mean “grave” but the latter ones refer to a place of life and happiness even… another writer here said that this place is equivalent to purgatory, which is an interesting idea because that would go together with 2. Maccabees and all that - but purgatory most certainly is not a place of human happiness but suffering…but there is no other third place mentioned so this Sheol must be purgatory too…but that doesn’t make sense any more sins purgatory isn’t paradise. SO where were those souls that the Jews prayed for in 2.maccabees ? …how could they be helped by prayers if they went either to hell or to Abraham’s bosom which was a place for the just, a place of happiness?
Emil
Guys, I am getting quite confused now about all this. If I understand correctly, you are saying that paradise is not the same thing as heaven (and you do have some pretty good reasons for saying that). But this is not what I was taught ever, this seems like an official (albeit reasonable) doctrine.
Maybe I should ask an apologist to explain this.
There are few concepts flying around:
a) Bossom of Abraham
b) Paradise
c) Purgatory
d) Heaven
e) Hell
I think that maybe we should clearly define each, or even better, find out what the church teaches about these in rigor. What do you think?
Tom
 
40.png
tomaskovarik:
Guys, I am getting quite confused now about all this. If I understand correctly, you are saying that paradise is not the same thing as heaven (and you do have some pretty good reasons for saying that). But this is not what I was taught ever, this seems like an official (albeit reasonable) doctrine.
Maybe I should ask an apologist to explain this.
There are few concepts flying around:
a) Bossom of Abraham
b) Paradise
c) Purgatory
d) Heaven
e) Hell
I think that maybe we should clearly define each, or even better, find out what the church teaches about these in rigor. What do you think?
Tom
Be Blessed,
Thank you Tom and Vern - for the value of your knowledge…
Vern, I agree my focus on ‘place’ was rather ‘wide-eyed and human’ of me… But I think Tom sums my question up in a different manor…

I agree the teachings do not discuss a specific place, be common Catholics are rarely discouraged from seeing these ‘things’ as such.

There is another thread here that had dialogue about purgatory being a sort or beginning or entrance to heaven… This was difficult for me. The article linked in this tread was not.

However, I now I am confused as to weather we are talking about yet a fourth ‘thing’.

I love this sight. It keeps me God focused, and taunts my strong desire to seek the path to becoming a Deacon… Although I am also SO humbled by the knowledge of some on this sight it makes this taunting seem impossible (which is comforting in its own way).

Peace,
CS
 
Or, perhaps, is the point that Paradise no longer exists since Christ rose? But if that were the case, what of Hell (Vulgate)?
 
40.png
USMC:
Paradise is another name for Abraham’s Bosom, spoken of in Luke, chapter 16. When Our Lord died, He descended into this place, which was located in the center of the earth. It is called paradise because it was a place of natural happiness, as opposed to heaven which was supernatural happiness.

In the Creed we say He descended into Hell, which refers to the location in the center of the earth, not necessarily the hell of the damned.
You say 2 things that are kind of misleading… you say that He descended into a place in the center of the earth that is natural happiness, and then you say He descended into hell which is
“in” the center of the earth which is “not necessarily the hell of
the damned” Either it is a place of happiness, or it is not. it cannot be two. Your statement then is misleading. :tsktsk:
 
40.png
johnshelby:
you cannot limit God, Jesus, Holy Spirit to one time, one
place at the time…

He is onipresent… He is in paradise today, and here within
me, and within you…

when He told the thief he would be in paradise with Him
today, then that’s EXACTLY what happened…

🙂
The simple truth of this is loud and clear…
 
40.png
tomaskovarik:
Guys, I am getting quite confused now about all this. If I understand correctly, you are saying that paradise is not the same thing as heaven (and you do have some pretty good reasons for saying that). But this is not what I was taught ever, this seems like an official (albeit reasonable) doctrine.
Maybe I should ask an apologist to explain this.
There are few concepts flying around:
a) Bossom of Abraham
b) Paradise
c) Purgatory
d) Heaven
e) Hell
I think that maybe we should clearly define each, or even better, find out what the church teaches about these in rigor. What do you think?
Tom
Bosom of Abraham - place of the righteous dead who died before Christ’s ascension. Luke 16:19 to end. Lazarus dies and is carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom.

**Paradise **- place were Christ ascended to after taking the righteous “captives” out of the Bosom of Abraham Ephesians 4:8-10 “Therefore it says, When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, and He gave gifts to men. Now this expression, ‘He ascended,’ what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.”

**Purgatory - **state of being purified 1Corinthians 3:12-15 “Now if any man builds upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. If any man’s work which he has built upon it remains, he shall receive a reward, If any man’s work is burned up, He shall suffer loss, but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire.”

**Heaven - **the place being prepared by Jesus for his “bride,” the church. Rev. 21:2 “And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.” Verses 11-end. brilliant, high wall, gates, pure gold, precious stones, Lord God and the Lamb are in it, only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life are allowed inside. Chapter 22 river of life, tree of life (remember the tree of life in the Garden of Eden?) no more curse (remember the curse in the Garden?)

**Hell **- temporary abode of unrighteous dead. Matthew 11:23 Jesus is speaking and says, “And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You shall descend to Hades (hell); for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day.” Revelation 22:14-15 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. OUTSIDE are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and 3everyone who loves and practices lying.” Revelation 21:27 “Nothing unclean and no one who practices abomination and lying shall ever come into it (heavenly Jerusalem) but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.” Their permanent abode will be: Revelation 20:14, 15 And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire, This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

Those are my definitions based on Scripture.
 
40.png
fineca:
I believe that explanation you’ve heard from Jehova’s Witnesses or something - in their translation it’s like that. But in my Greek new Testament there are commas and as far as I know Greek uses punctuation and the Evangelists probably punctuated the text, or does someone know for a fact that the commas have been added later? Anyway in my Greek New Testament the comma is before the word “today”, not after. the JWs place it after so that they could still hold their doctrines that the dead are unconscious and that the final destination of most believers is an earthly paradise.

Manuscripts of the NT are almost completely unpunctuated for the first four centuries - the words werenotevendivided - they were ALLWRITTENINCAPITALSLIKETHIS 🙂 Punctuation developed gradually; none of it is from the time of the Apostles.​

Here is a picture of Codex Sinaiticus, which dates from about 350:

http://www.lrz-muenchen.de/services/schulung/unterlagen/archiv-backup/sinaiticus.jpg

The top left-hand column begins with the opening words of John’s Gospel. Note the dash after ΛОΓ in the first line: it is an abbreviation to remind the reader that the word in full is ΛОΓOC: that is, logos.

This is from Luke 23, though it does not include the verse in question - not all mansuscripts do - the page is a large one:

und.edu/instruct/cjacobs/Luke23-24excerptsUncial.JPG

See also: und.edu/instruct/cjacobs/Luke.html
 
All the Jews I have talked to tell me that when a righteous Jewish person dies he/she goes to heaven and that there are levels of heaven. Each year on a particular day each person gets that little bit closer to God (or something like that). Has anyone else ever heard of this? If so doesn’t this seem dramatically different from the Jewish beliefs from the time of Jesus?

Hope that wasn’t too far off topic, but I think its relevant.
 
AAARRGGGHHHH!!!

THIS IS SOOOOOOOOOOO CONFUSIIIIIING!!!

The definitions for Hell, Heaven, Purgatory,Paradise, Abraham’s bosom etc. were ok but based on that they were all different places, but here it is suggested that the three mentioned last are the same thing, but are they?

Argh again:D

Emil
 
40.png
fineca:
AAARRGGGHHHH!!!

THIS IS SOOOOOOOOOOO CONFUSIIIIIING!!!

The definitions for Hell, Heaven, Purgatory,Paradise, Abraham’s bosom etc. were ok but based on that they were all different places, but here it is suggested that the three mentioned last are the same thing, but are they?

Argh again:D

Emil
Why do you think of them as places? We have no inkling if the temporal laws of space and time apply.

The doctrine is simple, if we don’t stumble around and make it complicated. One of three things can happen to you when you die:
  1. You may be saved without conditions.
  2. You may be in a state of purgation for the effects of sins.
  3. You may be condemned.
 
40.png
levi86:
All the Jews I have talked to tell me that when a righteous Jewish person dies he/she goes to heaven and that there are levels of heaven. Each year on a particular day each person gets that little bit closer to God (or something like that). Has anyone else ever heard of this? If so doesn’t this seem dramatically different from the Jewish beliefs from the time of Jesus?

Hope that wasn’t too far off topic, but I think its relevant.
There is a New Testament verse about the third heaven:

2 Corinthians 12:2 “I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago–whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows–such a man was caught up to the THIRD HEAVEN.”

And then he goes on in verse 4: “was caught up into Paradise, and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.”

So there you have it! Third Heaven = Paradise.

One of the problems is when people say the word “heaven” they think pearly gates, streets of gold, etc., but that is the New Jerusalem, a place prepared for true Christians that will come down to earth–read the last couple chapters of Revelation. Only those who are RESURRECTED in Christ Jesus will be allowed in.
 
40.png
Marquette:
There is a New Testament verse about the third heaven:

2 Corinthians 12:2 “I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago–whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows–such a man was caught up to the THIRD HEAVEN.”

And then he goes on in verse 4: “was caught up into Paradise, and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.”

So there you have it! Third Heaven = Paradise.

One of the problems is when people say the word “heaven” they think pearly gates, streets of gold, etc., but that is the New Jerusalem, a place prepared for true Christians that will come down to earth–read the last couple chapters of Revelation. Only those who are RESURRECTED in Christ Jesus will be allowed in.
I think that it is best to focus on the word being used in context.

The Greek word for Paradise appears three times in the New Testament.

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

2Cor 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

The same Greek word is used in each case. One SHOULD be able to come to the conclusion, UNLESS the context indicates otherwise, that all three are referring to the same place.

Peace to you,
Richard
 
40.png
Richard_Hurtz:
I think that it is best to focus on the word being used in context.

The Greek word for Paradise appears three times in the New Testament.

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

2Cor 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

The same Greek word is used in each case. One SHOULD be able to come to the conclusion, UNLESS the context indicates otherwise, that all three are referring to the same place.

Peace to you,
Richard
Well, one thing for sure, whatever or wherever it is, if it’s with God, I wanna be there.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top