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Richard_Hurtz
Guest
Amen and Amen!
Richard
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Richard
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
Unfortunately words are apt to be troublesome even so 
- football is played in the USA, the UK, and Australia, but an alien with no previous knowledge of them would not at once realise they were all called football.
Both the UK & the USA speak of “corn”, and both countries are talking about a food crop; but our corn is barley, while USA corn - IIRC - is maize.In those examples, one word names different things - corn in both countries is the same word. Complications begin when we include words of identical form but unrelated origin as well as different meaning: such as corn (for the food crop) and the kind of corn one has on the feet (which is not a fod crop).
The “paradise of pleasure” (for so English translates the Septuagintal name for what we call the “garden of Eden”) is another paradise to watch for.
The Jewish Encyclopedia, published in 1901-06, has these to offer:
…and…
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
Abyss
AbaddonAscension
Book of Life
There is also a good deal of Ascension literature and Assumption literature.
Also: Eschatology -
as well as… ##
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
…these:
PURGATORY:APHRAATES, THE PERSIAN SAGE: -
…be interpreted as meaning retribution such as the doctrine of purgatory would imply. In the same manner Aphraates, with his…
ABRAHAM, TESTAMENT OF: -
…fire, remaining in an intermediate state (Benoni) corresponding to the purgatory of the Church (compare Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 3; 'Er.
ESDRAS, BOOKS OF: -
…Shammaites, who claim that these souls must go through the purgatory of the Gehenna fire before they are admitted into… ##
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TheRaiders
Guest
I think you all are getting confused because these “places” refer to different states in the same “place”. Abraham’s bosom is Purgatory. They are different from . People that are explaining this away by aying Jesus was everywhere, and outside of time are forgetting one thing: One of the most amazing things bout the birth, life and death of Jesus Christ is that God came into one place and time. Even after the Resurection, Jesus was in one place at one time and didn’t enter Heaven untill many days later. The scriptures are clear on this.
So for what he said to the good thief to make sense, the thief went to some other place besides Heaven. That would be Abraham’s bosom, or Purgatory. Purgatory is like a temporary Hell. This is from catholic.com:
Some people imagine that the Catholic Church has an elaborate doctrine of purgatory worked out, but there are only three essential components of the doctrine: (1) that a purification after death exists, (2) that it involves some kind of pain, and (3) that the purification can be assisted by the prayers and offerings by the living to God. Other ideas, such that purgatory is a particular “place” in the afterlife or that it takes time to accomplish, are speculations rather than doctrines.
Lets use the imaginations that God gave us to help this make sense. Abraham’s bosom could just be the paradise-type place/state that Abraham lived and protected his people from the temporal punishments going on. Imagine if Purgatory is a magical world like Tolkein’s or C.S. Lewis’. Abraham’s bosom could be a mighty fortress or kingdom where the purest people live. Outside, sinners like you or me might have to walk amongst all kinds of beasts, and evil beings, but in there they are living in a paradise getting ready to enter heaven. For all we know, the damned could be there too, and we’d have to hang out with them, while the people like the Good Thief (who experienced much of his Purgatory on the cross) get to hang out with people like Mother Theresa, Catherine Emerich, and other holy people who are probably just there to teach people a bit before they go to heaven.
Patrick
So for what he said to the good thief to make sense, the thief went to some other place besides Heaven. That would be Abraham’s bosom, or Purgatory. Purgatory is like a temporary Hell. This is from catholic.com:
Some people imagine that the Catholic Church has an elaborate doctrine of purgatory worked out, but there are only three essential components of the doctrine: (1) that a purification after death exists, (2) that it involves some kind of pain, and (3) that the purification can be assisted by the prayers and offerings by the living to God. Other ideas, such that purgatory is a particular “place” in the afterlife or that it takes time to accomplish, are speculations rather than doctrines.
Lets use the imaginations that God gave us to help this make sense. Abraham’s bosom could just be the paradise-type place/state that Abraham lived and protected his people from the temporal punishments going on. Imagine if Purgatory is a magical world like Tolkein’s or C.S. Lewis’. Abraham’s bosom could be a mighty fortress or kingdom where the purest people live. Outside, sinners like you or me might have to walk amongst all kinds of beasts, and evil beings, but in there they are living in a paradise getting ready to enter heaven. For all we know, the damned could be there too, and we’d have to hang out with them, while the people like the Good Thief (who experienced much of his Purgatory on the cross) get to hang out with people like Mother Theresa, Catherine Emerich, and other holy people who are probably just there to teach people a bit before they go to heaven.
Patrick
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fineca
Guest
Okokok so let me get this straight.
First of all, about words and meanings:
Paradise can mean (generally, not only in the Bible)
1)the beatific vision we experience after death if we are saved
2) the new Jerusalem, a spiritual but real place where we’ll be when our bodies are resuscitated on the last day.
Hell can mean
Hades means the same as paradise 2) and Hell 2) , and so does Sheol.
Purgatory is where the dead righteous ones go who are not complete in sanctifying grace so basically the same as Hades.
So basically it gets pretty confusing because if we don’t take into account these different meanings we can conclude that Hell equals purgatory equals heaven, since
Gehenna=Hell=Hades=Purgatory=Abraham’s bosom=Paradise=Heaven
However we know that it is not so, so we have to be careful with the meanings.
Many points are still unclear to me. I will write more soon.
First of all, about words and meanings:
Paradise can mean (generally, not only in the Bible)
- where Adam and Eve were.
- Where the righteous dead ones went before Jesus’s time, a place of human happiness and
- Heaven
- the same as paradise 2)
- the same as paradise 3) (only in later liturgical etc. usage)
1)the beatific vision we experience after death if we are saved
2) the new Jerusalem, a spiritual but real place where we’ll be when our bodies are resuscitated on the last day.
Hell can mean
- the place of eternal torment for the wicked
- the place where the righteous dead ones went before Christ (see apostolic creed)
Hades means the same as paradise 2) and Hell 2) , and so does Sheol.
Purgatory is where the dead righteous ones go who are not complete in sanctifying grace so basically the same as Hades.
So basically it gets pretty confusing because if we don’t take into account these different meanings we can conclude that Hell equals purgatory equals heaven, since
Gehenna=Hell=Hades=Purgatory=Abraham’s bosom=Paradise=Heaven
However we know that it is not so, so we have to be careful with the meanings.
Many points are still unclear to me. I will write more soon.
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Godcop
Guest
Re guardless of all opinions on Paradise,
Where did the other thief go?
The same place as the rich man went from the account of Lazarus and the rich man?
Surely Abraham said, there is a great gulf between us, no one where you are can cross over to where we are and no one where we are can cross over to where you are.
Doesn’t that extinguish the idea of Purgatory?
Where did the other thief go?
The same place as the rich man went from the account of Lazarus and the rich man?
Surely Abraham said, there is a great gulf between us, no one where you are can cross over to where we are and no one where we are can cross over to where you are.
Doesn’t that extinguish the idea of Purgatory?
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Godcop
Guest
Many points?
That’s an understatement.
You’ve just said that heaven equals hell.
In that case, Jesus died for nothing.
In that case, there is no after life.
In that case, if there is an after life, what does it matter.
In that case, there is no reason for us being here.
In that case, you may as well say we came from cosmic pond scum.
In that case, who cares?
About anything !!!
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Marquette
Guest
I still think the bottom line is Christ died for us and we can depend on God to take care of us. It’s interesting to discuss all these things, but in the end, trust God. I like to think we can ask HIM all these things and get straightened out at the Heavenly University.
"Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob, that He may teach us concerning His ways, and that we may walk in His paths. For the law will go forth from Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem, and He will judge between the nations, and will render decisions for many peoples, and they will hammer their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks, nation will not lift up sword against nation, and never again will they learn war. Isaiah 2:3-4
But the goal of our instruction is LOVE from a PURE HEART and GOOD CONSCIENCE and a SINCERE FAITH, for some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion. 1 Timothy 1:5,6
"Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob, that He may teach us concerning His ways, and that we may walk in His paths. For the law will go forth from Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem, and He will judge between the nations, and will render decisions for many peoples, and they will hammer their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks, nation will not lift up sword against nation, and never again will they learn war. Isaiah 2:3-4
But the goal of our instruction is LOVE from a PURE HEART and GOOD CONSCIENCE and a SINCERE FAITH, for some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion. 1 Timothy 1:5,6
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fineca
Guest
vern humphrey:
But we know that there is no purgatory at the center of the Earth so this theory must be false. This discussion is not about what will happen to us after death but about the places one could go to before Christ. So Abraham’s bosom existed then but it obviously doesn’t any more, or does it? but Purgatory does, so was Abraham’s bosom kind of substituted for purgatory or something?
E
Because they are places - our bodies will be resuscitated and where there are bodies, there is a place, not necessarily material places but spiritual ones, just as we’ll have a spiritual body. Heaven is described as a place in Revelation. If Paradise/Abraham’s bosom was a place located at the center of the Earth as some here suggest and if that Paradise equals purgatory then purgatory also is a place.
But we know that there is no purgatory at the center of the Earth so this theory must be false. This discussion is not about what will happen to us after death but about the places one could go to before Christ. So Abraham’s bosom existed then but it obviously doesn’t any more, or does it? but Purgatory does, so was Abraham’s bosom kind of substituted for purgatory or something?
E
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Godcop
Guest
You say that Purgstory exists.
Let me ask you these -
Did Jesus Christ die for SOME of your sins ?
Did Jesus Christ die for MOST of your sins ?
Did Jesus Christ die for ALL of your sins ?
Purgatory, is defined as a place where you go - after death - to be purified of remaining sin, correct ?
Well then, refer back to the questions.
Did not James say, if you’ve broken one commandment, you’re guilty of them ALL ? I believe he did.
Did not Paul say, Sin is sin ? I believe he did.
As far as ‘our bodies’ - at the resurrection, we won’t be in ‘Spiritual’ bodies’. We will be likened unto Jesus’ resurrected body. He said to Thomas, ‘Touch me, does a spirit have flesh and bone ?’
Before Adam sinned, he said, ‘Bone of my bone. Flesh of my flesh.’ He walked with God in a BODY. (Before he ‘knew’ he was naked.
Jesus ‘hungered’ and wanted something to eat AFTER His resurrection. Can a spirit EAT food ?
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Fiat_Lumen
Guest
Paradise is the Heaven of the Sacred Humanity of Our Lord, or the Second Heaven, the Third Heaven is the Heaven of the Divinity. The First Paradise was lost at the fall of Adam, and will be restored on earth in fulfilment of the Prophesy of the Our Father.
About your second question, remember that Jesus on the Cross spoke as God, in His Eternity. One could say the same thing about leaving Mary as mother of John, when the real meaning of Mary´s maternity was universal.
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Godcop
Guest
Fiat Lumen:
The ‘real’ meaning of Mary’s maternity ?
By who’s interpretation ?
Universal ? Hardly !!
When Jesus was speaking from the cross, He was NOT yet IN eternity.
The ‘real’ meaning of Mary’s maternity ?
By who’s interpretation ?
Universal ? Hardly !!
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Marquette
Guest
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fineca
Guest
True, sorry, I meant glorious bodies (or resurrected) not spiritual bodies, which we’ll have when we’re in heaven but not yet in the heavenly Jerusalem, I believe.
As to purgatory, I hope you’re not Catholic because if you are you’re not at liberty to disagree with the Church on this issue if you still want to have access to the sacraments. Yes Jesus died objectively for all the sins of everybody but this doesn’t mean everybody will be saved, in the same way it doesn’t mean that I’ll receive the forgiveness for all my sins, that depends on my receiving the sacrament of penance and so on. Purgatory is there to forgive any remaining venial sins (Nothing unclean shall enter heaven says the book of Revelation) (see what John wrote about mortal&venial sins if u don’t see the difference) and to remove the temporal punishment due to our sins if we haven’t made amends for them in this life through practising penance and so on. If this point about making amends and doing penance and temporal punishments is unclear to you I recommend you read the CA tract Primer on Indulgences.
Emil
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fineca
Guest
Fiat Lumen:
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fineca
Guest
By that of the tradition of the Church - indeed so
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Fiat_Lumen
Guest
We have to remember that Jesus is the Word Incarnate, and the Word speaks in Eternity.
Jesus gave Mary as Mother to John the Apostle, but in so doing he gave His Mother to us, or why do we call her “Mother” for many centuries? Also remember that God has not allowed Sacred Tradition to err.
I think the Divine Nature of our Lord is not fully known by Catholics and sometimes we tend to be fundamentalists ourselves.
Let us keep united in the Will of God.
Fiat!
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fineca
Guest
THANK GOODNESS I finally found peace with this information from the Catholic encyclopedia: Purgatory IS NOT the same as the bosom of Abraham:
"In the New Testament, Christ refers by various names and figures to the place or state which Catholic tradition has agreed to call the limbus patrum. In Matt. 8:11, it is spoken of under the figure of a banquet “with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of Heaven” (cf. Luke 8:29; 14:15), and in Matt. 25:10 under the figure of a marriage feast to which the prudent virgins are admitted, while in the parable of Lazarus and Dives it is called “Abraham’s bosom” (Luke 16:22) and in Christ’s words to the penitent thief on Calvary the name paradise is used (Luke 23:43). St. Paul teaches (Ephesians 4:9) that before ascending into Heaven Christ “also descended first into the lower parts of the earth,” and St. Peter still more explicitly teaches that “being put to death indeed, in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit,” Christ went and “preached to those souls that were in prison, which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noah” (1 Peter 3:18-20).
It is principally on the strength of these Scriptural texts, harmonized with the general doctrine of the Fall and Redemption of mankind, that Catholic tradition has defended the existence of the limbus patrum as a temporary state or place of happiness distinct from Purgatory."
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petra
Guest
The original Greek did not have punctuation. Punctuation really did not come into use until 1000 years after Christ. Originally, there were not even spaces between words.
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