Today's reading "Not to Judge" or can we?

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MichaelP3 you were the one to side track the judging thread

“But then I can ask, but who are you to judge correctly? Do you really have the knowledge or “authority” to even make that call?”

This means you can not judge a women’s right to an abortion, or whether Muslims are a peaceful religion. Yes the church teaches Islam means submission and had a lot of resources to inform Catholics. Pope Francis does not deal with traditional Islam but rather Moderate or what Muslims call themselves at college “free Muslims”.

Islam and Catholicism
They don’t have as much in common as you might think

“Muslims are pious. They’re pro-life. They’re uncompromising. What’s not to like about their religion?
Plenty, actually. But too many people nowadays assume that to speak about other religions in anything but an uncritical fashion is contrary to Vatican II and to the divine command to love our neighbor. It is a peculiar, albeit common, misconception of our age to think that dispensing with the truth can be an act of charity.
It never truly can be. We must always, as the Apostle says, speak the truth in love—that is, enunciate the realities that we know to be true without rancor, or pride, or arrogance, or condemnation. But we must never think our obligation to be charitable can or should overwhelm our responsibility to bear witness to the truth.
Islam differs fundamentally from Catholicism in its views of God, Christ, and essential moral issues. As Muslim persecution of Christians increases in Pakistan, Egypt, Nigeria, Iraq, Indonesia, and elsewhere, and Muslims become more of a presence in the West, it becomes more essential for Catholics to understand this”

catholic.com/magazine/articles/islam-and-catholicism
 
To further the discussion I see there are comments about how do I know as a Catholic that I am following what is morally right and not just what I feel is right. One needs to know this if they are to JUDGE.

According to Bishop Barron it has to do with accomplishing the end purpose. Bishop explains why we are right and how do we know it at these spots of his podcast:

WOF 024: The 5 Big Questions Everyone Asks in Life

18:54 – Question #4 – What is moral and immoral?
23:00 – How do we discover what’s right and wrong?

wordonfireshow.com/episode24/
 
JourneyForTruth said:
MichaelP3 you were the one to side track the judging thread

“But then I can ask, but who are you to judge correctly? Do you really have the knowledge or “authority” to even make that call?”

This means you can not judge a women’s right to an abortion, or whether Muslims are a peaceful religion. Yes the church teaches Islam means submission and had a lot of resources to inform Catholics. Pope Francis does not deal with traditional Islam but rather Moderate or what Muslims call themselves at college “free Muslims”.

Islam and Catholicism
They don’t have as much in common as you might think

“Muslims are pious. They’re pro-life. They’re uncompromising. What’s not to like about their religion?
Plenty, actually. But too many people nowadays assume that to speak about other religions in anything but an uncritical fashion is contrary to Vatican II and to the divine command to love our neighbor. It is a peculiar, albeit common, misconception of our age to think that dispensing with the truth can be an act of charity.
It never truly can be. We must always, as the Apostle says, speak the truth in love—that is, enunciate the realities that we know to be true without rancor, or pride, or arrogance, or condemnation. But we must never think our obligation to be charitable can or should overwhelm our responsibility to bear witness to the truth.
Islam differs fundamentally from Catholicism in its views of God, Christ, and essential moral issues. As Muslim persecution of Christians increases in Pakistan, Egypt, Nigeria, Iraq, Indonesia, and elsewhere, and Muslims become more of a presence in the West, it becomes more essential for Catholics to understand this”

catholic.com/magazine/articles/islam-and-catholicism
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Hi there

But then you must forgive me for asking the following question.

It would then seem like you have some agenda as you ask a question “Today’s reading “Not to Judge” or can we?” with apparently only a yes or no answer. So if someone says yes, you are happy and agree. If they say no (for whatever reason as it seems those are optional reading material) then they get accused for agreeing with abortion. In other words there is no way out of this, point and case.

If this is the case (I really believe and hope not), or if the thread will carry on with abortion then I hereby withdraw any statements made and rather leave. Too many times have I seen threads turn over to extremities for absolutely no reason. I do not know how to explain it but it comes to something like, “Let me accuse him of saying something he absolutely cannot defend” (And in most cases I have found this to be abortion).

Please forgive me then, as if this was the intent (or if abortion was actually intended to be discussed) I should never have posted anything in the first place. You are the OP and therefore I respect your thread.

Regards and all the best.
 
MichaelP3 said:
I see you follow an interesting methodology of sidetracking a reply and then try to turn it over on to the other person.

Let us backtrack to the original reply from me. And I will really try to spell it out as clearly as I can.

Just because you say or think you are right, does not make you right. You seem old enough that you should understand this. In most of your posts you speak with such “authority” and it is apparent in these ones as well. I am not saying you can’t, go ahead and do that, that is your right. But thinking with all your correct certainty you may have, that does not automatically make you right. You could be, that’s not totally impossible. Hence my question (the original one) when you come up to someone with all the authority you presume to have and say he/she is wrong, they can ask “well who are you again?”. Or maybe approach it a bit differently like your Catechism states in 2478.
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Not sure what I’ve said that prompts such an emotional response from you, Michael, but I suggest you turn down the rhetoric a bit.

It’s good for you to be here and in dialogue with knowledgeable Catholics.

It would be a shame for you to be banned.

Suffice it to say that you, too, speak as if you believe your responses to be correct.

Of course, I see nothing wrong with that. You should post and speak as if you know what you’re saying. You should post your thoughts with some “authority”.

It would be absurd to post your thoughts here but say, “I don’t really think what I’m saying is true or even approaching a correct assessment”.

However, I just ask for the same respect.

If you post with as if what you’re saying is correct (and you certainly sound like you feel like you’re right), then simply allow me to do the same.

Now, let’s continue to dialogue, 'kay? 🙂
 
MichaelP3 You’re putting too much into this.

The original Question I posted was:
“My question is can we judge others action and declare them not within Jesus teachings or do we have to not judge and let the Lord judge bad actions at the end times?”

Let me rephrase the question.
**“Does the bible say we can judge or is it saying we are not to judge.” **

What I was taught in RCIA is a uniquely YES! So I already figure I know the answer.

Not just abortion but; capital punishment, immigration, embezzlement or even some person stealing an apple of the cart because he is hungry.

We use natural laws, reason and what Bishop Barron talks about knowing right from wrong. Bishop Barron talks about the four levels of causation but the most important is; telos, or final “cause”

End or purpose: a change or movement’s final “cause”, is that for the sake of which a thing is what it is. For a seed, it might be an adult plant. For a sailboat, it might be sailing. For a ball at the top of a ramp, it might be coming to rest at the bottom.
(Wiki Four causes)

Following God’s will through the bible and apostolic succession, we know our final end purpose here on earth. We know the will of God to accomplish here on earth as our time is more of a growing and learning to follow the will of God.

So what did the passage mean when it said, “Make your hearts firm, because the coming of the Lord is at hand. Do not complain, brothers and sisters, about one another, that you may not be judged.”

I think it just means you will be judged in the end by how you judge others in this life. What was fair in this life will be the same expectation of how you are to lead your life. Why complain about your brother fault when you a log of fault in what your doing.

Matthew 7:3 "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
 
who among us does not engage in sinful behaviors? we would become a body of finger-pointers with time for little else if pointing out others’ failures is a commandment of Jesus Christ.

we should not use isolated scripture quotes to justify our own behaviors.

Jesus did give instructions for what to do if a brother sins against us.

as we judge, so will we be judged. so my advice, unless you are without sin, leave the judging to almighty God. God, and only God, knows all of the factors of guilt and culpability involved in His creatures’ decisions.

as for instructing others, parents and pastors have the primary responsibility for instructing others. they indeed should do that. but singling out examples of sinners in our community is not the best way of instructing. why? because none of us know the culpability of another person when we observe their actions that are objectively and rightly considered sins against the commandments of Jesus. in addition, we do not know how our judgments will affect both the person we are judging or the rest of the people in our community. how do we know if a public accusation of sinfulness will benefit anyone?
 
eddie_too said:
who among us does not engage in sinful behaviors? we would become a body of finger-pointers with time for little else if pointing out others’ failures is a commandment of Jesus Christ.

we should not use isolated scripture quotes to justify our own behaviors.

Jesus did give instructions for what to do if a brother sins against us.

as we judge, so will we be judged. so my advice, unless you are without sin, leave the judging to almighty God. God, and only God, knows all of the factors of guilt and culpability involved in His creatures’ decisions.

as for instructing others, parents and pastors have the primary responsibility for instructing others. they indeed should do that. but singling out examples of sinners in their community is not the best way of instructing. why? because none of us know the culpability of another person when we observe their actions that are objectively and rightly considered sins against the commandments of Jesus.
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I don’t think anyone is advocating singling out examples of sinners in their community.

But we are advocating saying, for example, “It is wrong to abort your baby” or “It is wrong to deny Christ is divine”.
 
i think their is a difference between “admonishing sinners”; and pointing out and identifying sinners to thers.

admonishing sinners involves direct, face to face communication with a person. it does not involve finger-pointing at that person over there; and/or public declarations of opprobrium and guilt directed to another person.

admonishing sinners is intended to help the person being admonished. it is hard to imagine i am helping someone by proclaiming publicly that he or she is a sinner, especially if i am not even a confidant, with little to know personal knowledge of the person’s spiritual state, of the person i am pointing my finger at and proclaiming the evilness of their actions.
 
MichaelP3 said:
But then I can ask, but who are you to judge correctly? Do you really have the knowledge or “authority” to even make that call? What do you really know except what you think or have been told? What makes your judgment better or more authoritative then another, or mine against you? Some of us may think we have it all figured out and I guess that is our right, but let us be honest, we are all embryos in this large world 🙂
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I have the Supreme Infallible Authority. A bible. Actually, en entire collection of them, so my personal authority is multiplied. Well, maybe not… :rolleyes:

We are not created as, or intended to be judges, so we must not ‘judge’, as we can send neither to heaven nor hell. Admonishing is quite another thing. It is a violation of the virtue of charity to overlook what is clearly a sin which can send a brother or sister to hell. “Truly I tell you, what you did not do to others you did not do to Me.”
 
prmerger, i consider your point to be not judging but instructing. and we should instruct those in our faith about the Lord’s commandments and how the Church interprets them. some of us, specifically parents and pastors, have a grave responsibility to do that.

the distinction lies somewhere among the idea of what is most constructive in our use of words.

i am sure you have, as i have, heard people publicly chastising others for their private decisions. decisions that the people publicly chastising have little knowledge or understanding of. does this behavior, pointing out the faults, mistakes and errors of others publicly to members of the community increase the presence of the Holy Spirit in the community?

you see there are so many distinctions that must be made in this area. for example, the actions of elected leaders as regards their public responsibilities may and should be discussed in terms of righteousness. public decisions are matters about which parents and pastors should instruct their charges. i imagine that in terms of brotherly love, such public acts should also and rightfully be discussed by and among our friends.

but as a general rule, within our christian communities, i see it serving little purpose to spend much, if any, time worrying about other members actions. perhaps providing excuses for the actions of those whom appear to be sinning would be a better practice?

we should always teach the objective truths to each other as instructions by those with the responsibility of instructing others. but should we go around telling others how such and such is a terrible gossip and engages frequently in slander? how does this help anyone? now, if the gossip is a personal friend whom we know quite well and who also respects us and our opinion, of course it then serves a person to privately discuss this behavior with them.

the area of adultery and living with a spouse after a divorces may have provoked much of this thread. so i ask, should we go around condemning that man whom we know is in a second marriage (or if you prefer is living with a second partner/woman) as an adulterer when we have no idea if he is trying to live chastely with his current partner; or when we have no idea of why he is still living with his second partner; or when we have no idea of the events, circumstances and intentions surrounding his Church celebrated marriage?

see what i mean about so many distinctions?

i believe we could go on and on about the application of brotherly admonishment, but this is not really the place for that.
 
eddie_too said:
prmerger, i consider your point to be not judging but instructing. and we should instruct those in our faith about the Lord’s commandments and how the Church interprets them. some of us, specifically parents and pastors, have a grave responsibility to do that.

the distinction lies somewhere among the idea of what is most constructive in our use of words.

i am sure you have, as i have, heard people publicly chastising others for their private decisions. decisions that the people publicly chastising have little knowledge or understanding of. does this behavior, pointing out the faults, mistakes and errors of others publicly to members of the community increase the presence of the Holy Spirit in the community?

you see there are so many distinctions that must be made in this area. for example, the actions of elected leaders as regards their public responsibilities may and should be discussed in terms of righteousness. public decisions are matters about which parents and pastors should instruct their charges. i imagine that in terms of brotherly love, such public acts should also and rightfully be discussed by and among our friends.

but as a general rule, within our christian communities, i see it serving little purpose to spend much, if any, time worrying about other members actions. perhaps providing excuses for the actions of those whom appear to be sinning would be a better practice?

we should always teach the objective truths to each other as instructions by those with the responsibility of instructing others. but should we go around telling others how such and such is a terrible gossip and engages frequently in slander? how does this help anyone? now, if the gossip is a personal friend whom we know quite well and who also respects us and our opinion, of course it then serves a person to privately discuss this behavior with them.

see what i mean about so many distinctions?

i believe we could go on and on about the application of brotherly admonishment, but this is not really the place for that.
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I agree–distinctions are important.

And the distinction about judgement is very important. We don’t judge the eternal destination of someone. But we can certainly make judgements about people, activities, events, behaviors, etc etc etc.
 
i agree that we can compare a person’s behaviors to objective norms and determine whether the behaviors comply with the objective norms.

but we cannot assign guilt or culpability to the behaviors of another. sometimes it is hard to do that even to our own actions.

for example, we can tell our children or friends that yes a man who we know was married in the Church and is living with a woman not his wife is not following the objective norm of christian marriage taught to us by Jesus through His Church. but, and this is my position, we should not say that this man is guilty of adultery. that may be a very fine distinction, but i believe it is an important distinction.

why should we not say the man is committing adultery? there are several reasons. among them are: we do not know the condition of his soul; we do not know the facts of his daily life; we do not know the facts of his first marriage.

now if we want to make the distinctions between the objective rule and about how, when and to what extent a person is culpable for his or her actions in light of the objective rule while acknowledging these are factors we do not and cannot know, i see no problem with that. the more charitable interaction with such a person is, at least i believe it is, to find excuses for the sinful behavior that diminish or eliminate personal culpability.

i remind myself, because i too am prone to passing judgment about others’ actions without making the necessary distinctions, of how when they brought the woman caught in adultery and Jesus said go and sin no more, there is not record of Him adding, and if you do sin again do not bother coming back.
 
PRmerger said:
Not sure what I’ve said that prompts such an emotional response from you, Michael, but I suggest you turn down the rhetoric a bit.

It’s good for you to be here and in dialogue with knowledgeable Catholics.

It would be a shame for you to be banned.

Suffice it to say that you, too, speak as if you believe your responses to be correct.

Of course, I see nothing wrong with that. You should post and speak as if you know what you’re saying. You should post your thoughts with some “authority”.

It would be absurd to post your thoughts here but say, “I don’t really think what I’m saying is true or even approaching a correct assessment”.

However, I just ask for the same respect.

If you post with as if what you’re saying is correct (and you certainly sound like you feel like you’re right), then simply allow me to do the same.

Now, let’s continue to dialogue, 'kay? 🙂
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No worries, I am on the verge of giving up, but I will try again.
PRmerger said:
It’s good for you to be here and in dialogue with knowledgeable Catholics.

It would be a shame for you to be banned.
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Careful with the threats merger! It’s also good for you to hear some other viewpoints outside your paradigm, not necessarily to agree with, but just to broaden your thinking.

But back to the posts. I do feel we need to backtrack again 🤷. You quote only half my post and missed the parts that actually deal with the things you are raising. I’ll type them here for you.

"I am not saying you can’t, go ahead and do that, that is your right. "
“You could be, that’s not totally impossible.”
“Personally as a human, I just realise I am a normal human being with all my shortcomings.”
“If more people don’t presume to know everything, maybe a few of the worlds problems can already be solved.”
Or again as I said “maybe you have it all figured out” and you are a person who can just judge correctly? (A question, still no answer, obviously I don’t know, I am just asking?).

So taking all that into account (And reading this should put a question mark on most of your last post, it should be pretty clear I do respect your view. It could really be true, and I mean that. I am just merely asking (In general of course, please don’t bring up abortion) with what authority are you making that call. If you think you have it all figured out, just say that and then we can move on. I would like to continue dialogue. But the rhetoric is both ways. You don’t answer my questions? I can continue, but I would need you to work with me, please!

Or maybe I have been going about this all wrong. Rather, do you accept “your” view could be wrong or in the least, grow in some way?

Regards
MichaelP3
 
MichaelP3 said:
Or maybe I have been going about this all wrong.
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Oh, yes, indeed you have.
Rather, do you accept “your” view could be wrong or in the least, grow in some way?
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Regards
MichaelP3
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I am always open to growing in some way, Michael.

If you have an argument that is cogent, and are able to present it coherently, I may change my mind on an issue.
 
PRmerger said:
Oh, yes, indeed you have.

I am always open to growing in some way, Michael.

If you have an argument that is cogent, and are able to present it coherently, I may change my mind on an issue.
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So we are getting somewhere! 😃

Care to answer the questions!?
 
PRmerger said:
Why don’t you re-pose them, and give me the context in which you’re asking.
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Let’s start of with, do you accept you can be wrong in your feeling/viewpoint to another’s actions? Do you know all about the situation?

(I realise you agreed context would be key in another reply so elaborate on that if needed)
 
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