tongues

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Mysty101:
PS And praying in tongues is not even mentioned.
1Cor 14:27-28 is about tongue that can be heard by the other congregation. That is why it ned interpretation. If you want to do tongue privately in your heart, it’s up to you. In fact that’s just what Paul ordered (…and speak to himself and to God 1Cor 14:28)
 
I guess the only way to clarify this dispute is to have new rules brought to order.Ok,charismatics what do you say before the assembly starts a poll should be taken to see what gifts are availlable in the assembly. 😃 Now if no one has the gift of interpretation, tongues will not be allowed.Even better lets poll and see if there are any unbelievers and if not, tongues will not be necessary.How would the Holy Spirit feel if we took over His job? Well at least we would heed to 1 corith 14,vs 27-28.according to some of our brothers and sisters. :confused:
 
What we really do not need is another Protestant coming to our rescue. Protestants have done plenty damage to the Church, both outside, and lately inside though the CCR. Luther must be rolling with laughter in his grave.
 
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tru_dvotion:
What we really do not need is another Protestant coming to our rescue. Protestants have done plenty damage to the Church, both outside, and lately inside though the CCR. Luther must be rolling with laughter in his grave.
So now come the personal attacks. :eek:
 
No Word, I am not attacking you. But you must understand, the CCR is a Catholic problem and as a Protestant you can make it worse but not better. God bless.
 
beng said:
1Cor 14:27-28 is about tongue that can be heard by the other congregation. That is why it ned interpretation. If you want to do tongue privately in your heart, it’s up to you. In fact that’s just what Paul ordered (…and speak to himself and to God 1Cor 14:28)

Even with your words—He said
(…and speak to himself and to God 1Cor 14:28)
He did not say it couldn’t be spoken out loud.
 
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Mysty101:
Word,
I apologize for the rudeness to you. Most Catholics do have more charity in their hearts than is being shown here.

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/11/11_6_3v.gif
Yes Mysty, I agree…I am deeply offended because I’m a convert to the Faith and if I were not sure of the fullness of the Faith that the Catholic Church possesses, I would probably just give up and leave this forum…
Please Word, don’t do that! We love you and you have a beautiful spirit and wonderful words of wisdom too.
God Bless,
Annunciata:(
 
Mysty101
I apologize for the rudeness to you. Most Catholics do have more charity in their hearts than is being shown here.
Annunciata
Yes Mysty, I agree…I am deeply offended because I’m a convert to the Faith and if I were not sure of the fullness of the Faith that the Catholic Church possesses, I would probably just give up and leave this forum…
*Please Word, don’t do that! We love you and you have a beautiful spirit and wonderful words of wisdom too. *
*God Bless, *
*

You both are kidding… right? Dear people, this is absolute hogwash! This is false ecumenism! Your responsibility is to evangelize and to convert him, not to encourage him to remain in his heresy? Why would a Catholic need or even want a Protestant to explain Scriptures or to mediate for him? We suppose to help him and not the other way around! Get a grip of yourselves! Do you know who Protestants protest? They protest the Catholic Church! They dispute the very code of our faith, the very tenets our Catholic martyrs gave their lives for! Do you really love this person? Try to get him to come back and try to get him to give up his division. While you are embracing him because he happens to be a holy roller you are also perpetuating and reinforcing his heresies and separation from the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, the Church that was founded by Jesus Christ our Lord, the Son of the Living God and bought by him in excruciating pain on Calvary and not, I repeat, NOT by Martin Luther!
 
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Joysong:
Beng,
So I really question the motivation of this discord you have maintained here, which seems to be far greater an evil than that with which you accuse the charismatics. Does the prosecution ever rest its case? Haven’t we seen enough? Is anyone seriously listening to your argument?

Carole
Oh yes. I am.

Your reflection on the reason for wanting order, ie. people all speaking at once is a good one. Also, getting back to the tongue-speaker themself, are they edifying, ie. enlightening anyone else? Or is it merely for their own benefit? If so, as St. Paul points out as well, speaking or praying in tongues can be done silently, with no difference in edification for the person so praying but with a significant difference for others in the meeting or mass. You might say it is a matter of courtesy.

St. Paul also mentions that tongues is the “least” of all the gifts, which to my mind raises the question, why then is so much time and preparation devoted to getting the “newbie” to receive the gift, ie. thought process, encouragement from the group, (dare we suggest group pressure, albeit gentle) laying on of hands, the expectation of the gift of tongues, voluntarily trying to say a word or two with the idea that practice will bring on more of such speech. (LISS, ALPHA)

This is a gift of the the Holy Spirit? Has anyone ever had the unsettling thought that maybe they have been had? Sounds like a methodology to me, something like methods for seeing auras, or methods for creating an Out-of-Body experience. I can’t help hearing the line from the movie, “Use the force, Luke!”

Sorry to offend, but call me skeptical. The God of the Bible does not hang around waiting to be “released.” The Holy Spirit goes wherever He wills, not at anyone’s beck and call. He is a Person, the third Person of the Trinity, not a force to create effects and/or manifestations.

Certainly there are times when a sign from God, through the Holy Spirit, is appropriate for His purpose, as He sees fit. Even entire movements, if it fits His plan. I would never, ever presume to say I could know the mind of God or His plan.

What we do know is that St. Paul relegated tongues to a lower place than most of the “gifts” or “fruits” of the Holy Spirit. At another point he said that when he was a child he spoke as a child, but when he became a man he put away childish things. Perhaps that sounds harsh, but if you sit back and reflect, is it really the summit of the Christian life to keep going back, over and over, to seek the “experience”, the manifestation? Or is there a time to move on to the higher things, the greater wonders, the depths of God’s love and power in understanding and seeking His will at every moment, enduring the tests and trials that make us strong in Christ, when it doesn’t feel good to be a Christian, when we cannot see or feel God working but we **know **He is by sheer faith, as we forget all about ourselves and our feelings, and throw ourselves into the battle against evil.

If tongues and such manifestations have a place and are truly of the Holy Spirit, we can confidently say that they surround an initial conversion or re-conversion event, are temporary, a sign, and from there we move on. An analogy; when a kid with a fear of water first overcomes it and jumps in, he is so exhilerated by having conquered the fear that he climbs out and jumps in, over and over, but sooner or later it is time to learn to swim.
 
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beng:
Excellent post Les Richardson!
I second Beng. The whole world is in need of mature Christians who are committed to seeking and doing God’s will in order to contribute to building the Kingdom of God on Earth.

We are formed by the liturgy and we in turn are called to form the world.

Maria
 
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Mysty101:
Word,
I apologize for the rudeness to you. Most Catholics do have more charity in their hearts than is being shown here.

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/11/11_6_3v.gif
Thanks Mysty,but no appoligy is necessary. There are 99.5 percent of spiritual filled christians on this site,but there are always a few with their own agendas.I dont claim to have all the answers. Im here to learn from each other so that we may grow in the love of Jesus Christ. If im wrong please do correct me.We will continue to learn until the day we die. Its about being united in Jesus Christ. God Bless. 😉
 
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tru_dvotion:
You both are kidding… right? Dear people, this is absolute hogwash! This is false ecumenism! Your responsibility is to evangelize and to convert him, not to encourage him to remain in his heresy? Why would a Catholic need or even want a Protestant to explain Scriptures or to mediate for him? We suppose to help him and not the other way around! Get a grip of yourselves! Do you know who Protestants protest? They protest the Catholic Church! They dispute the very code of our faith, the very tenets our Catholic martyrs gave their lives for! Do you really love this person? Try to get him to come back and try to get him to give up his division. While you are embracing him because he happens to be a holy roller you are also perpetuating and reinforcing his heresies and separation from the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, the Church that was founded by Jesus Christ our Lord, the Son of the Living God and bought by him in excruciating pain on Calvary and not, I repeat, NOT by Martin Luther!
Mysty and Annunciata are so right.
Jesus teaches His Truth with firmness and strength and honesty. But most of all, Jesus teaches with Love. This is hardly hogwash.

Peace.
 
tru_dvotion said:

You both are kidding… right? Dear people, this is absolute hogwash! This is false ecumenism! Your responsibility is to evangelize and to convert him, not to encourage him to remain in his heresy? Why would a Catholic need or even want a Protestant to explain Scriptures or to mediate for him? We suppose to help him and not the other way around! Get a grip of yourselves! Do you know who Protestants protest? They protest the Catholic Church! They dispute the very code of our faith, the very tenets our Catholic martyrs gave their lives for! Do you really love this person? Try to get him to come back and try to get him to give up his division. While you are embracing him because he happens to be a holy roller you are also perpetuating and reinforcing his heresies and separation from the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, the Church that was founded by Jesus Christ our Lord, the Son of the Living God and bought by him in excruciating pain on Calvary and not, I repeat, NOT by Martin Luther! Tru, Thank you for your unkind words. 😦 It makes me understand how Jesus felt when he walked this earth. If I speak with human or angelic tongues but do not have love,I am but a noisy gong or a clangy symbol. 😦
 
shannon e said:
Mysty and Annunciata are so right.
Jesus teaches His Truth with firmness and strength and honesty. But most of all, Jesus teaches with Love. This is hardly hogwash.
Dear shannon,

This is for you:

“The good of all good is the divine Good, just as God is for all men the Neighbor of all neighbors. In consequence, the love due to a man, inasmuch as he is our neighbor, ought always to be subordinated to that which is due to our common Lord. For His love and in His service we must not hesitate to offend men. The degree of our offense towards men can only be measured by the degree of our obligation to Him. Charity is primarily the love of God, secondarily the love of our neighbor for God’s sake. To sacrifice the first is to abandon the latter. Therefore, to offend our neighbor for the love of God is a true act of charity. Not to offend our neighbor for the love of God is a sin.

Modern Liberalism reverses this order; it imposes a false notion of charity: our neighbor first, and, if at all, God afterwards. By its reiterated and trite accusations toward us of intolerance, it has succeeded in disconcerting even some staunch Catholics. But our rule is too plain and too concrete to admit of misconception. It is this: Sovereign Catholic inflexibility is sovereign Catholic charity. This charity is practiced in relation to our neighbor when, in his own interest, he is crossed, humiliated, and chastised. It is practiced in relation to a third party when he is defended from the unjust aggression of another, as when he is protected from the contagion of error by unmasking its authors and abettors and showing them in their true light as iniquitous and pervert, by holding them up to the contempt, horror, and execration of all. It is practiced in relation to God when, for His glory and in His service, it becomes necessary to silence all human considerations, to trample under foot all human respect, to sacrifice all human interests – and even life itself – to attain this highest of all ends.

All this is Catholic inflexibility and inflexible Catholicity in the practice of that pure love which constitutes sovereign charity. The Saints are the types of this unswerving and sovereign fidelity to God, the heroes of charity and religion. Because in our times there are so few true inflexibles in the love of God, so also are there few uncompromisers in the order of charity. Liberal charity is condescending, affectionate, even tender in appearance, but at bottom it is an essential contempt for the true good of men, of the supreme interests of truth and (ultimately) of God Himself. It is human self-love, usurping the throne of the Most High and demanding that worship which belongs to God alone.”

from “Liberalism Is A Sin,” by Don Felix Sarda y Salvany, a priest of Barcelona
 
SPOKENWORD said:
Tru, Thank you for your unkind words. 😦 It makes me understand how Jesus felt when he walked this earth. If I speak with human or angelic tongues but do not have love,I am but a noisy gong or a clangy symbol. 😦

You are welcome Word,

However, I disagree with you on the unkind part. I am more your friend and I love you more than the defenders of your erroneous beliefs. I care for your salvation more than to agree with you in your errors. The display of false love and false charity by your friends is quite astounding. It is a pluralist fallacy that to be a friend one has to agree with every false proposal. Your best friends could just very well be those people whom you believe to be your enemies at the moment. Think about it. Eternity is a very long time and I do care where you will be spending it. God bless.
 
shannon e:
Mysty and Annunciata are so right.
Jesus teaches His Truth with firmness and strength and honesty. But most of all, Jesus teaches with Love. This is hardly hogwash.

Peace.
Thanks for the support…that is what we should be doing as Christians…helping one another carry their cross no matter what… with the love of Jesus!
God Bless,
Annunciata:)
 
Tru,
Thanks for your reply. Bear with me if this seems choppy, I keep editing and tossing in additional points here & there.

I applaud your steadfastness to the Truth.
Please believe me when I say that I would never want you to compromise that. Never!

But I guarantee you that it is most definitely possible to be charitable and loving, without compromising on Truth.

In the first paragraph you posted–
The good of all good is the divine Good, just as God is for all men the Neighbor of all neighbors. In consequence, the love due to a man, inasmuch as he is our neighbor, ought always to be subordinated to that which is due to our common Lord. For His love and in His service we must not hesitate to offend men. The degree of our offense towards men can only be measured by the degree of our obligation to Him. Charity is primarily the love of God, secondarily the love of our neighbor for God’s sake. To sacrifice the first is to abandon the latter. Therefore, to offend our neighbor for the love of God is a true act of charity. Not to offend our neighbor for the love of God is a sin.
The first sentence is very important as I think you’d agree. Good (and truth) is of utmost importance; but I also think that mentioning neighbors in that opening statement is very telling also. That’s an important analogy to be included in.

In regard to offense: I think that it is the Truth which is to offend. Not our behavior or actions. Truth can be very hard for to see, especially when accustomed to their own blindness (I refer to my pre-conversion days). Trust me when I say that even Truth on a silver platter can be quite offensive.

In regard to **Charity: **I don’t think it means charity to God. It means Charity to others because we love God. Right?

As for the 2nd paragraph, I repeat, I don’t think that I or Mysty or Annunciata would ever condone that.

I would also guarantee you that Truth and Charity are much more effective than Truth and anything Less.

I also thank you for the emphasis and reminder of the importance of Truth. Nothing less will do.

Peace to you.
 
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