Too many rules and not enough loving?

[mlchance]

Libero:

This is one thing that Cardinal Murphy O’Connor complimented the Anglican church on. He said that they were keen to become closer to Jesus, and to particularly spread the love of God, (or something along those lines).

And that is a good point, I’m sure.

But perhaps our Anglican/Episcopelian brothers ought to be a little more concerned about rules. It’d have kept them from doing things like ordaining women, ordaining homosexual divorcees, tolerating bishops who dissent from foundational doctrines such as the Trinity, et cetera.

Remember: Jesus Christ condemned being pharisaical. He didn’t condemn rules.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[mlchance]

Magicsilence:

Does love have limitations then?

Yes, it does. If I truly love someone, I won’t sugarcoat his failings, especially those failings that put his soul in jeopardy. It isn’t loving to tell a homosexual that there’s nothing wrong with homosexual sex. It isn’t loving to tell a teenager that there’s nothing wrong with premarital sex. It isn’t loving to tell an alcoholic that he doesn’t really have a problem. Et cetera.

We are to set no limits to our love, meaning that we are to love everyone. But this sort of love also means we must speak the truth.

Of course, it not necessary that everyone speak the truth in the same manner. Let’s be honest. Apologetics is a rather low order method of spreading the Gospel. It’s the easy way out. Much harder is the pastoral route envisioned by Saint Francis of Assisi: Always preach the Gospel; use words only when necessary.

Perhaps, Magic, your calling is a higher, more pastoral one?

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Libero]

And that is a good point, I’m sure.

But perhaps our Anglican/Episcopelian brothers ought to be a little more concerned about rules. It’d have kept them from doing things like ordaining women, ordaining homosexual divorcees, tolerating bishops who dissent from foundational doctrines such as the Trinity, et cetera.

Remember: Jesus Christ condemned being pharisaical. He didn’t condemn rules.

Yes I agree, neither of our churches are perfect, we can all learn something from one another.

 

[reen12]

OK. Ouside of the precepts [commands] of the Church, [do these still apply, or have they changed?]

cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/baltimore/bcommch.htm

what’s being referred to, here?

The Ten Commandments?
“Love the Lord thy God…and thy neighbor, as thyself?”

Interpretations of same?
-no abortion
-no artificial contraception
-no remarrying, in some cases, without an annulment
of the original marriage
-just war theory

I get confused sometimes, in these discussions.

What rules and regulations are being referred to, specifically,
in terms of the RCC?
Thanks,
reen12 :tiphat:*

 

[FightingFat]

Shiann:

Most of the rules have a basis in love.

They are one in the same.

It is often times ignorance of the depth of the Catholic Church that leads people to seek “quick fix” love that they don’t think exists in the Catholic Church.

Nice post friend! Something we should all consider!

I do think it is largely the nature of man to instill lots of red tape around God’s simple message of love. You just have to accept it and keep it simple in your own life. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and love your neighbour as yourself. I do not see my Catholic faith in any way at odds with that philosophy!


God bless!

 

[Sherlock]

Magicsilence:

Why are you angry at me>?

I didnt ask you to respond to my “vague” thread.

I’m not angry at you. I simply don’t understand what you’re trying to get at, as you’re dealing with emotions and over-broad generalizations, both of which are hard to respond to. You have yet to give any examples, which WOULD be a potentially fruitful discussion.

If you didn’t want people to respond to your vague thread, then why post it in the first place? This is an apologetics forum, not the Oprah show. If you posit a position, be prepared to discuss it and to defend it, with concrete examples to back up generalizations.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

Too much spiritual deadwood among Protestants *and *Catholics. The reason is that the one great rule to love is not obeyed.

 

[felra]

Too much spiritual deadwood among Protestants *and *Catholics. The reason is that the one great rule to love is not obeyed.

As evidenced by … (?)

 

[Libero]

I’m not angry at you. I simply don’t understand what you’re trying to get at, as you’re dealing with emotions and over-broad generalizations, both of which are hard to respond to. You have yet to give any examples, which WOULD be a potentially fruitful discussion.

Well I can understand what magicsilence is getting at. If you need examples, then simpy look around you. One key example is the way that posters talk to each other, people seem to become so determined to defend their idea of catholicism, or the teachings of catholicism, that often they talk in a way that seems to show none of the love that christianinty is based on. We become obsessed with the rules written in sometimes the smallest parts of the gospel, that we forget that God loves us, and that really, he will love us no matter what. People talk frequently of sinning etc, and make it seem that God no longer loves them. These gifts of prudence and others are exercised above the one of the two ‘golden rules’:

Love your neighbour as yourself.

 

[buffalo]

Libero:

Well I can understand what magicsilence is getting at. If you need examples, then simpy look around you. One key example is the way that posters talk to each other, people seem to become so determined to defend their idea of catholicism, or the teachings of catholicism, that often they talk in a way that seems to show none of the love that christianinty is based on. We become obsessed with the rules written in sometimes the smallest parts of the gospel, that we forget that God loves us, and that really, he will love us no matter what. People talk frequently of sinning etc, and make it seem that God no longer loves them. These gifts of prudence and others are exercised above the one of the two ‘golden rules’:

Love your neighbour as yourself.

Seek to understand the truth and then you will grow.

 

[Libero]

Seek to understand the truth and then you will grow.

???

 

[felra]

One key example is the way that posters talk to each other, people seem to become so determined to defend their idea of catholicism, or the teachings of catholicism, that often they talk in a way that seems to show none of the love that christianinty is based on. We become obsessed with the rules written in sometimes the smallest parts of the gospel, that we forget that God loves us, and that really, he will love us no matter what. People talk frequently of sinning etc, and make it seem that God no longer loves them.

God loves everyone of His creatures whether they forget, are unaware, or neglectful or dismissive of His personal love for them. It is helpful to realize that God does not withdraw His love even from those individuals who send themselves to hell for all eternity.

Love your neighbour as yourself.

The problem that I see with many folks, is a lack of mature balance between the mercy and the justice of God in following the command (not suggestion) of Jesus to love one’s neighbor as one’s self. Maybe some posters would do better to start first with self-evangelization before finger pointing (note: this comment is not directed to Libero personally).

 

[Libero]

God loves everyone of His creatures whether they forget, are unaware, or neglectful or dismissive of His personal love for them. It is helpful to realize that God does not withdraw His love even from those individuals who send themselves to hell for all eternity.

This is an enitirely different area for me, and one that I do have to do more research in. I do struggle in accepting the punishmen t side of christianity, not really because of myself, but because of others and how they would be punished.

The problem that I see with many folks, is a lack of mature balance between the mercy and the justice of God in following the command (not suggestion) of Jesus to love one’s neighbor as one’s self. Maybe some posters would do better to start first with self-evangelization before finger pointing (note: this comment is not directed to Libero personally).

Ah yes, but this is a problem, is anyone ever really perfect enough to point the finger, how do we decide? There is always also a difficulty for everyone to follow the command of love your neighbour as yourself.

 

[felra]

I do struggle in accepting the punishmen t side of christianity, not really because of myself, but because of others and how they would be punished.

You are not alone in this. The immensity of God’s mercy and justice can be difficult to grasp.

Ah yes, but this is a problem, is anyone ever really perfect enough to point the finger, how do we decide? There is always also a difficulty for everyone

to follow the command of love your neighbour as yourself.

I attempt to point out the shortcomings, misconceptions and distortions of others in humility and genuine concern for their eternal wellbeing. I would hope that others would extend this same mercy to me when in conveyed attitude, word or deed I too need fraternal correction. It takes a bit of risk to be on the delivery of recipient end of fraternal correction. But, after all we are all family and members of the same household of God.

 

[felra]

This is an enitirely different area for me, and one that I do have to do more research in. I do struggle in accepting the punishmen t side of christianity, not really because of myself, but because of others and how they would be punished.

You are not alone in this. The immensity of God’s dual-fold love (mercy and justice) can be difficult to grasp.

Ah yes, but this is a problem, is anyone ever really perfect enough to point the finger, how do we decide? There is always also a difficulty for everyone

to follow the command of love your neighbour as yourself.
I attempt to point out the shortcomings, misconceptions and distortions of others in humility and genuine concern for their eternal wellbeing. I would hope that others would extend this same mercy to me when in conveyed attitude, word or deed I too need fraternal correction. It takes a bit of risk to be on the delivery of recipient end of fraternal correction. But, after all we are all family and members of the same household of God.

 

[buffalo]

The Church is a hospital for sinners. We all occupy these hospital beds. When one of us gets well we all rejoice. When someone in the next bed needs help we need to be there. When we get well we feel better and we can help those still very sick.

 

[Libero]

I attempt to point out the shortcomings, misconceptions and distortions of others in humility and genuine concern for their eternal wellbeing. I would hope that others would extend this same mercy to me when in conveyed attitude, word or deed I too need fraternal correction. It takes a bit of risk to be on the delivery of recipient end of fraternal correction. But, after all we are all family and members of the same household of God.

Yes I can agree here, the problem though for me is that people often (including myself sometimes) do not understand the nature of peoples posts/ commets. That is my main reason for not trying to help others in their understanding, because often people are hostile to what you have to say.

 

[felra]

Libero:

Yes I can agree here, the problem though for me is that people often (including myself sometimes) do not understand the nature of peoples posts/ commets. That is my main reason for not trying to help others in their understanding, because often people are hostile to what you have to say.

That is why I made the statement – It takes a bit of risk to be on the delivery or recipient end of fraternal correction.

 

[koda]

Libero:

Really, my point was that as catholics, do we spend too much time thinking about the rules? Do we get carried away in church law, but at the same time not God’s law? Do we no longer spread and understand the love of God as we once did, because of the rules we follow?

I’m not sure if this is what the OP meant, but I see a lot of Christians (not just Catholics) who will beat you to death with rules - the same mindset as the Pharisees who didn’t want Jesus to heal on the Sabbath because is was against Jewish law. IMO:
These folks are well versed in the letter of the law, but don’t seem to grasp the spirit.

 

[Sherlock]

puzzleannie:

Another example is simply the way parish secretaries and staff deal with people who come to the parish office seeking assistance, either with practical needs like bills, food, medical care, or with spiritual needs like anointing of the sick, funerals etc. Every single person I know who works in a parish complains that the dogmatic way parish offices are run usually results in more people being turned away, than being helped.

Well, then let me be the first to say that not all parishes are like that. I fill in for our parish secretary when she takes vacation, has a day or two off, or is sick—and what an eye-opener it has been. Our parish does help those in need, and I am amazed at both the variety of needs and the helpfulness of the staff in meeting them. I am also amazed at the expectations of those who must think that the parish secretary, the priest, and others have nothing to do during the week but twiddle their thumbs—the parish staff are constantly busy trying to handle all of the demands made on them, while our priest ( a real saint) has a schedule that would frighten most men. If even a third of parishioners helped out with their talents instead of leaving the work to “somebody else”, our parishes would be transformed. Please don’t blame parish staff.