Top papal aide says Vatican ‘worried’ about Trump’s refugee order

[fred_conty]

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[Ridgerunner]

Ah! A Vatican aide is “worried” about Trump’s temporarily refusing free entrance from people from seven countries, six of them in war zones, and six of them without functioning governments that can be relied on to provide information about their emigres. One, of course, is the number one exporter of terrorism to the world.

But the aide is “worried” about it. So what are we supposed to do about his “worry”? How does he picture doing otherwise concretely? What is his proposal? Open borders? Extreme vetting (oh, but that’s part of the Trump plan, so that can’t be it)? What?

Perhaps he has no concrete proposal at all and is simply “worried” that somehow it will turn out worse than things generally do in the U.S. and was merely expressing that “worry”. If he had an alternative which he thought workable and just, he would have surely expressed it.

If I had to guess, I would guess that his worry is misplaced. The media have convinced many that Trump is a Hitler, or worse, and possibly some believe it or at least “worry” about it.

Personally, I’m not worried, and I have no moral obligation to “worry” that Trump will shoot all Muslims or exclude them all, or do whatever some people think he’ll do. So far, it has been what? 109 people out of some 300,000 entrants have been detained for vetting?

What’s the 2017 body count for murder in Chicago so far? Isn’t it about 300?

 

[exnihilo]

Wow these mental gymnastics. “Clearly the pope and bishops must be misinformed.”

I didn’t say that. I just said they may be watching the same CNN. CNN is terrible as a news source. It gives a false impression.

 

[Vouthon]

I didn’t say that. I just said they may be watching the same CNN. CNN is terrible as a news source. It gives a false impression.

Somehow I would think that the Vatican has far superior and more precise channels of communication than simply watching network news broadcasts like the rest of us - including its own Bishops in the United States.

If they are concerned, they will have very good reason to be so and on strong evidential grounds as well.

 

[lmachine]

I didn’t say that. I just said they may be watching the same CNN. CNN is terrible as a news source. It gives a false impression.

So they’re not misinformed, they’re just misinformed?

 

[Ridgerunner]

Somehow I would think that the Vatican has far superior and more precise channels of communication than simply watching network news broadcasts like the rest of us - including its own Bishops in the United States.

If they are concerned, they will have very good reason to be so and on strong evidential grounds as well.

If we knew anything at all about the premises underlying this nonspecific concern, we might find it persuasive. In the absence of knowing any of that or what this Vatican aide might think a better procedure, we’re just left to compare what we know about it to nothing at all.

That being the case, it seems to me this expression of concern is simply a general concern that Trump might be a worse person that many of us think he is, and that he’ll possibly do something we have no particular reason to think he’ll do.

But concern is part of what the Vatican does, and rightly. But we shouldn’t take that as a policy directive by the Pope.

 

[exnihilo]

Somehow I would think that the Vatican has far superior and more precise channels of communication than simply watching network news broadcasts like the rest of us - including its own Bishops in the United States.

If they are concerned, they will have very good reason to be so and on strong evidential grounds as well.

Like a CIA? I wouldn’t be surprised if bishops and other officials did watch CNN. That is a natural enough thing to do. But it is a legitimate question, and important for evaluating prudential matters, to know where someone offering an opinion gets his information.

So they’re not misinformed, they’re just misinformed?

I said they may be misinformed. That is very different from they are misinformed. I don’t really know where they get their information from. I don’t suspect you do either. It is an interesting question.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Ah! A Vatican aide is “worried”

Actually if you read the article, the aide to Pope Francis said there is worry because we are messengers to openness… Not just him.

And he went on to say “Pope Francis insists on the ability to integrate those who arrive in our societies and cultures. All Christians should be strong in reaffirming this message.”

And the article cited Archbishop Chaput who is often a favorite to be quoted on CAF saying there are “few embodiments of the weak more needy or compelling than refugees,” and it is for this reason that the Church in the United States has reacted “so strongly, so negatively - and so properly - to President Trump’s executive orders of January 28.”

cruxnow.com/church-in-the-usa/2017/02/01/top-papal-aide-says-vatican-worried-trumps-refugee-order/

 

[Vouthon]

Like a CIA?

No, not like the CIA but the Vatican City is a sovereign state under international law and the Holy See, as the universal government of the Catholic Church, therefore has its own Apostolic Nunciature, the equivalent of a foreign embassy, in the United States.

As such, it is like arguing that Theresa May or Justin Trudeau or Angela Merkel simply get their information about goings-on in Washington from news broadcasts like the rest of us.

That isn’t how it works. There is such a thing as “diplomatic channels” that don’t reach the public arena or filter down into the mass media.

 

[Son_of_Niall]

Not responding to another attempt to use the Pope as a weapon. Just Disgraceful, really. I guess this is the low road yall have chosen now. Sad, very Sad

The OP just quoted and linked it without commentary.
Sorry it doesn’t fit your political leanings.

 

[Vouthon]

The OP just quoted and linked it without commentary.
Sorry it doesn’t fit your political leanings.

I know! Thanks for that

 

[Michael68]

No, not like the CIA but the Vatican City is a sovereign state under international law and the Holy See, as the universal government of the Catholic Church, therefore has its own Apostolic Nunciature, the equivalent of a foreign embassy, in the United States.

As such, it is like arguing that Theresa May or Angela Merkel simply get their information about goings-on in Washington from news broadcasts like the rest of us.

That isn’t how it works.

I believe that playing the “I’m a better Catholic than you” bit you guys are playing is offensive

 

[Son_of_Niall]

Ah! A Vatican aide is “worried” about Trump’s temporarily refusing free entrance from people from seven countries, six of them in war zones, and six of them without functioning governments that can be relied on to provide information about their emigres. One, of course, is the number one exporter of terrorism to the world.

But the aide is “worried” about it. So what are we supposed to do about his “worry”? How does he picture doing otherwise concretely? What is his proposal? Open borders? Extreme vetting (oh, but that’s part of the Trump plan, so that can’t be it)? What?

Perhaps he has no concrete proposal at all and is simply “worried” that somehow it will turn out worse than things generally do in the U.S. and was merely expressing that “worry”. If he had an alternative which he thought workable and just, he would have surely expressed it.

If I had to guess, I would guess that his worry is misplaced. The media have convinced many that Trump is a Hitler, or worse, and possibly some believe it or at least “worry” about it.

Personally, I’m not worried, and I have no moral obligation to “worry” that Trump will shoot all Muslims or exclude them all, or do whatever some people think he’ll do. So far, it has been what? 109 people out of some 300,000 entrants have been detained for vetting?

What’s the 2017 body count for murder in Chicago so far? Isn’t it about 300?

It’s the MEDIA!!

 

[Sy_Noe]

I know! Thanks for that

x2

 

[Vouthon]

I believe that playing the “I’m a better Catholic than you” bit you guys are playing is offensive

Nobody did this.

That is an unfounded accusation.

 

[ringil]

Not responding to another attempt to use the Pope as a weapon. Just Disgraceful, really. I guess this is the low road yall have chosen now. Sad, very Sad

The Pope has made his disagreements with restrictive immigration policy well known. How is this using the Pope as a weapon- it’s merely pointing out what he has said.

 

[Son_of_Niall]

I believe that playing the “I’m a better Catholic than you” bit you guys are playing is offensive

So, using your logic. Standing with the Pope and his Bishops is playing the “I’m a better Catholic than you” bit you guys are playing.
Gotcha.
I’ll stand with the Holy Father.
You stand with Trump.

 

[exnihilo]

No, not like the CIA but the Vatican City is a sovereign state under international law and the Holy See, as the universal government of the Catholic Church, therefore has its own Apostolic Nunciature, the equivalent of a foreign embassy, in the United States.

As such, it is like arguing that Theresa May or Angela Merkel simply get their information about goings-on in Washington from news broadcasts like the rest of us.

That isn’t how it works.

There is a world of difference between other governments and the Vatican. The Vatican doesn’t have a spy service, unless you believe the slander against the Jesuits. That being so they must get their news from public sources. For that matter I’m sure even major government leaders read news reports and thus get some of their news from public sources.

Since you claim to know how it works how about providing some details? What are their information sources? If you don’t know then you are just speculating, like me. Except I’m not saying I know how it works. I don’t.

 

[Vouthon]

There is a world of difference between other governments and the Vatican. The Vatican doesn’t have a spy service, unless you believe the slander against the Jesuits. That being so they must get their news from public sources. For that matter I’m sure even major government leaders read news reports and thus get some of their news from public sources.

Since you claim to know how it works how about providing some details? What are their information sources? If you don’t know then you are just speculating, like me. Except I’m not saying I know how it works. I don’t.

You should read the book “Church of Spies” by U.S. historian, essayist, and policy analyst Mark Riebling:

amazon.com/Church-Spies-Pope’s-Secret-Against/dp/0465022294

**Church of Spies: The Pope’s Secret War Against Hitler

Pius ran the world’s largest church, smallest state, and oldest spy service. Saintly but secretive, he…surreptitiously tape-recorded his meetings with top Nazis. When he learned of the Holocaust, Pius played his cards close to his chest. He sent birthday cards to Hitler–while plotting to overthrow him.

Church of Spies documents this cross-and-dagger intrigue in shocking detail. Gun-toting Jesuits stole blueprints to Hitler’s homes. A Catholic book publisher flew a sports plane over the Alps with secrets filched from the head of Hitler’s bodyguard. The keeper of the Vatican crypt ran a spy ring that betrayed German war plans and wounded Hitler in a briefcase bombing.

The plotters made history in ways they hardly expected. They inspired European unification, forged a U.S.-Vatican alliance that spanned the Cold War, and challenged Church teachings on Jews. Yet Pius’ secret war muted his public response to Nazi crimes. Fearing that overt protest would impede his covert actions, he never spoke the “fiery words” he wanted.

Told with heart-pounding suspense, based on secret transcripts and unsealed files, Church of Spies throws open the Vatican’s doors to reveal some of the most astonishing events in the history of the papacy.

“[E]xciting… deals fairly with the pope’s theological and political rationale… thoroughly documented with primary sources… Church of Spies is the best account of the subject to date. Amen!” - CIA Studies in Intelligence (Unclassified Edition)**

Some hyperbole in the above blurb aside to get disinterested readers to read it, the book is far more serious and scholarly.

There is some very well-oiled scholarship on the history of Vatican City intelligence gathering and behind-the-scenes diplomacy - as with the role played by the Vatican in the thawing of relations with Cuba recently.

The Vatican uses alternative names (i.e. “apostolic nunciature” rather than foreign embassy, “papal junction” as opposed to “ambassador”) but it is still the world’s smallest state and oldest global actor with legal personality in international affairs.

It’s Nunciature gives it a direct line to every U.S. Administration, as with the American Ambassador at the Vatican.

Needless to say the Papacy is not like any other sacral institution of other religions.

 

[Son_of_Niall]

There is a world of difference between other governments and the Vatican. The Vatican doesn’t have a spy service, unless you believe the slander against the Jesuits. That being so they must get their news from public sources. For that matter I’m sure even major government leaders read news reports and thus get some of their news from public sources.

Since you claim to know how it works how about providing some details? What are their information sources? If you don’t know then you are just speculating, like me. Except I’m not saying I know how it works. I don’t.

Once again, the boogeyman is the media.