Towards a Common Ethic

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When the war crimes trials were set up in Germany after World War II, some of the Nazi judges were put on trial and found guilty for sentencing Jews to be executed.The judges upheld the Nazi laws (which allowed the killing of Jews). But international law, recognized in every civilized nation as objective … condemned judicial executions based on race as an objective evil for which there could be no excuse.

If you’d like to see that thesis dramatized, watch the movie Judgment at Nuremberg, in which Spencer Tracy plays the American judge who defends the objectivity of the law against racial murder.
 
SAIR
*
I think that the humility of accepting our origins and our animal nature is perhaps akin to the humility of accepting God as the ultimate owner of our lives.*

The rejection of God is not any kind of humility.

If you are an apostate Catholic, please don’t pretend to be a saint.
Such strange meanings you read into my words!

Do you not think it a good thing for atheists to feel humbled by the vastness and beauty of nature?
 
Empathy for the poor may be necessary for us to fully understand why it is good to give but it is not necessary for us to accept that it is good to give. Acceptance does not require understanding.
It appears to me that what you have said is that objectively, morality is subjective. Morality based on the customs of different cultures is by definition subjective.
I challenged you to give a unique definition for morality. What you have done is to make morality synonymous with custom (so the definition is clearly not unique), which basically means that any behavior can be moral so long as enough people do it. Morality is by consensus. Cheating on a test, for example, would be wrong only if fewer than half the class cheated. Is this really your view of morality?
I have made specific arguments which cannot be refuted by speculation as to why I make them. What I say is either right or wrong and why I say what I do is irrelevant.

Ender
Understanding may not be an absolute requirement for acceptance, but it sure helps the process.

In defining morality as the norms and customs of a given society, I am not making light of it, as you seem to suggest. Custom, though it may have subjective origins, takes hold in a society because it has earned collective respect. Morality is part of customary behaviour - the way people are expected to act in a given society. Moreover, what morality does is provide a framework of ideal action to which people may aspire. The closer they come to the ideal, the more moral their behaviour. If half the class cheated on a test, that would make the test invalid, not immoral.
 
I must apologise for the incompleteness of my previous post. I was writing it on a break at work, and was obliged to leave off before fully expounding my argument.

To follow on from the test analogy - certainly the test would be invalidated if half the class were to cheat. It would be an innacurate reflection of the learning achievements of those who cheated. Moreover, it would run counter to the accepted norms of our society, which - at least in theory - values truth and honesty. If, however, this test took place in a society that valued expedience and cunning, then cheating on a test would be fine, as long as you could get away with it!

Collective conscience and collective values are of great importance in shaping the moral awareness of individuals. Humans are a social species by nature, and it takes an extraordinary degree of self-possession and independence to go against the values held by one’s culture and society. Not that this in itself is a bad thing, but it does require something more than just a rebellious streak - it requires a conviction that the values of others in your society are in error, or it requires a stubborn insistence that you can go against those values as long as you can get away with it. The latter is what is generally called the “might=right” mentality.

To illustrate further the point about culture and society influencing individual values, I offer the example of feudal Japan. The quality for which they held the highest value was honour, and this was more valuable than life - to the extent that if a samurai dishonoured himself somehow, or if his overlord died in battle and he survived, the manner in which he redeemed his honour was to commit ritual suicide. Transport these values to the 20th Century, and you have the Japanese army executing their Western prisoners of war. This was met with outrage by the Allied countries, but to the Japanese mindset, they were allowing their prisoners to die with honour, rather than endure the shame of imprisonment.

So, to bring this back to the subjective/objective morality question - yes, it is possible to have objective morality, but only in relation to the values of your society. It is possible to say with a reasonable degree of objectivity that certain actions run counter to the collective values held in any society. I don’t think, however, that it’s possible to say that there is a universal objective morality.

Furthermore, I had no intention of suggesting, Ender, that your personal convictions were somehow lesser for being based on faith. It was merely intended as an illustration of the way in which a person’s moral intuition is shaped by experiences, both internal and external.

Now, if I may pose a further question - I am moved to act with respect and courtesy towards my fellows, because that is how I like to be treated, and because I feel that others deserve no less. Let us say, for the sake of argument, that you act with respect and courtesy towards others because you recognise Christ within them. Being that the outcomes are quantitatively the same, do you feel that your actions are ‘better’ than mine? And if so, is this a subjective or an objective assessment?
 
Such strange meanings you read into my words!

Do you not think it a good thing for atheists to feel humbled by the vastness and beauty of nature?
Dear Sair,

I have recognized God in the vastness and beauty of the mountains of Alaska and I was humbled.

You have given me quite a bit to read so I will take time to do so.

Blessings,
granny

Humanity is the peak of God’s creation.
 
In defining morality as the norms and customs of a given society, I am not making light of it, as you seem to suggest.
No, this is not part of my argument.
Custom, though it may have subjective origins, takes hold in a society because it has earned collective respect.
This defines superstition as well which clearly does not earn respect. Your position allows no distinction to be made between morality and superstition. It would also not allow customs to change as - per your definition - whatever is contrary to custom is immoral and should be opposed.
Morality is part of customary behaviour - the way people are expected to act in a given society.
It is certainly true that customs to an extent do define what is moral in a society. There is, for example, no universal definition of proper dress; it varies from culture to culture. This is not to say, however, that all morality is no more than custom simply because some behavior meets that definition. Your position would not allow you to say that slavery per se was immoral, only that it is immoral in the US. Nor could you even say that murder is immoral as many societies today engage in honor killings where the brother or father of a girl who was raped will kill the girl for dishonoring the family. This presents you with an ethical dilemma: a Muslim girl in England is raped and then murdered by her father. Was his action immoral? According to English custom it was but according to Muslim custom it was not. Which prevails? More basically, it means that the same action can be both moral and immoral at the same time which really isn’t all that useful.
Moreover, what morality does is provide a framework of ideal action to which people may aspire. The closer they come to the ideal, the more moral their behaviour.
There is no such thing as an ideal custom; there are only different customs: English, Chinese, Aztec, cannibal, even prison customs and, according to your definition, all are morally equivalent. I really have a hard time believing that you actually think this way even though this is the conclusion your position forces you to take.

Ender
 
This defines superstition as well which clearly does not earn respect.
Also religion. 🙂
Your position allows no distinction to be made between morality and superstition. It would also not allow customs to change as - per your definition - whatever is contrary to custom is immoral and should be opposed.
Custom is not the same as morality, even though there is correlation. Customary behavior is subdivided into several “layers”, and depending on the seriousness it will earn a repercussion for violating it. Customs do change, albeit slowly. As a behavior gains acceptance it will not earn “disrespect” as it used to.
It is certainly true that customs to an extent do define what is moral in a society. There is, for example, no universal definition of proper dress; it varies from culture to culture.
Yes, precisely. If someone wears a “scant dress”, it is not viewed as unfavorably as someone who drops all her dresses and walks around nude. Public nudity in the US is considered to be immoral, while in a tribe close to the Equator it is normal behavior.
Your position would not allow you to say that slavery per se was immoral, only that it is immoral in the US.
It was not immoral in the Biblical times. The Bible itself endorses certain kinds of “slavery” (indentured servitude). Selling one’s offspring was considered moral and if the daughter had the misfortune to be pretty, the owner had the right to [edited] her, and sell the child if she gives birth to one. Not much of a difference from “real” slavery.
Nor could you even say that murder is immoral as many societies today engage in honor killings where the brother or father of a girl who was raped will kill the girl for dishonoring the family. This presents you with an ethical dilemma: a Muslim girl in England is raped and then murdered by her father. Was his action immoral? According to English custom it was but according to Muslim custom it was not. Which prevails?
The stronger one prevails as always. Let’s not kid ourselves, the foundation of every society is “might makes right”.
More basically, it means that the same action can be both moral and immoral at the same time which really isn’t all that useful.
Pretty close. Though it is not moral-immoral in the same context. However your example shows very well that the adjective “moral” (and the concept of morality) is quite useless. People consider something moral if they agree with it, and consider something immoral if they disagree. Yes, it is quite useless.
 
My comments were directed at the position taken by Sair, pointing out what I believe are problems with it. You have responded as if my comments represent my position, which they do not.
People consider something moral if they agree with it, and consider something immoral if they disagree.
I disagree with the comment above and I think it is demonstrably incorrect. You can look at these forums and find a number of examples where people are asking if a particular behavior is immoral. Such a question makes no sense at all if people really think that morality is whatever they believe it to be but the questions are perfectly rational for people who believe that objective morality exists and are trying to discern it.
However your example shows very well that the adjective “moral” (and the concept of morality) is quite useless.
Does this mean you believe that you can do whatever you think is in your own best interest regardless of its affect on others? Rape, pillage, and plunder … that sort of thing?

Ender
 
My comments were directed at the position taken by Sair, pointing out what I believe are problems with it. You have responded as if my comments represent my position, which they do not.
Well, I thought that in your comments you express your views. My mistake, I guess. 🙂
I disagree with the comment above and I think it is demonstrably incorrect. You can look at these forums and find a number of examples where people are asking if a particular behavior is immoral. Such a question makes no sense at all if people really think that morality is whatever they believe it to be but the questions are perfectly rational for people who believe that objective morality exists and are trying to discern it.
Most people disgree with me. So what? Most people say that “moral” is a meaningful term. I don’t agree.
Does this mean you believe that you can do whatever you think is in your own best interest regardless of its affect on others? Rape, pillage, and plunder … that sort of thing?
Does that follow from my remark? I don’t think so.

There are all sorts of human behavior, all being judged by the others surrounding them. Some are viewed favorably, some are tolerated, some are judged harshly, and some are considered criminal, and the community (or government) will apply ways and means to stop it. Jails and executions come to mind. It can be called self-defense of the people, but it can be just an attempt to stomp out “undesirable” behavior. See the McCarthyist persecution of real or imaginary communists or liberals.

We can draw two arbitrary lines and say that behaviors “above” one line we deem “moral”, the behaviors “below” the other line will be called “immoral”, and the rest neutral. Where these lines are drawn is a matter of taste for the individual. The aggregate of these views is the currently prevailing “morality”.
 
There are all sorts of human behavior, all being judged by the others surrounding them. Some are viewed favorably, some are tolerated, some are judged harshly, and some are considered criminal, and the community (or government) will apply ways and means to stop it. Jails and executions come to mind. It can be called self-defense of the people, but it can be just an attempt to stomp out “undesirable” behavior. See the McCarthyist persecution of real or imaginary communists or liberals.

We can draw two arbitrary lines and say that behaviors “above” one line we deem “moral”, the behaviors “below” the other line will be called “immoral”, and the rest neutral. Where these lines are drawn is a matter of taste for the individual. The aggregate of these views is the currently prevailing “morality”.
Do you see anything underlying all of the above like a common thread? Something that could be basic without having to vote on it? Maybe a common aspect of humanity?
 
It is certainly true that customs to an extent do define what is moral in a society. There is, for example, no universal definition of proper dress; it varies from culture to culture. This is not to say, however, that all morality is no more than custom simply because some behavior meets that definition. Your position would not allow you to say that slavery per se was immoral, only that it is immoral in the US. Nor could you even say that murder is immoral as many societies today engage in honor killings where the brother or father of a girl who was raped will kill the girl for dishonoring the family. This presents you with an ethical dilemma: a Muslim girl in England is raped and then murdered by her father. Was his action immoral? According to English custom it was but according to Muslim custom it was not. Which prevails? More basically, it means that the same action can be both moral and immoral at the same time which really isn’t all that useful.

There is no such thing as an ideal custom; there are only different customs: English, Chinese, Aztec, cannibal, even prison customs and, according to your definition, all are morally equivalent. I really have a hard time believing that you actually think this way even though this is the conclusion your position forces you to take.

Ender
I think that ethics, by their very nature, must be subjective. Any ethical system begins from a question - “how must I live my life?” or “what ought I to do?”

The answers to these questions will be different for every person who asks them. Some may follow broadly similar ‘rules’ or structures, but even then, the actual reasons for following those rules will differ, subtly or perhaps widely.

I don’t believe there is anything like a universal moral law. Although I can appreciate the usefulness in certain situations of appealing to a higher authority for guidance in a moral choice, at the end of the day, the choice has to be made by each individual on his or her own, and they have to be able to live with their choice.

If ethics are related to values held by a society or a specific person, it is possible to judge the moral character of their actions against the values they profess to uphold, and decide whether or not we think they have acted morally in terms of what their values seem to demand.

But this is also subjective, and problematic, because people have different ways of addressing values. Let us say, for the sake of argument, that we value sentient life. I’d say that’s a pretty widespread value, since most people are rather fond of their own lives, and the lives of friends, family, and perhaps pets as well, at the very least. From this value we can derive the ethic of allowing sentient life forms to continue - that is, not murdering them - and also that of sparing them unneccessary pain and suffering - that is, not causing them pain unless for some reason it is in their interest - like a trip to the dentist, for example, or the parent who smacks their toddler to stop him from pulling a hot saucepan off the stove.

However, whilst it makes a certain amount of logical sense to say that having values leads to making choices to act in ways that uphold those values, there are always going to be times when certain values or certain ethics derived from values will be in conflict. Certain people may value some things more than life - honour, for example - or there may be times when it is not clear which action would best serve a certain value.

Let’s take the above example of valuing sentient life. The issue of euthanasia here provides a useful illustration of why there will always be subjectivity inherent in ethical choices. Some would say that respect for life demands that no action be made directly to end the life of a terminal patient. However, respecting the sentience of that life - and the wishes of an autonomous agent - may make it a higher moral priority to end the suffering endured by the terminal patient. Of course, if the patient either withholds or is denied the opportunity to consent, then the point is moot, because here we have yet another value - autonomy of individual agents - that is brought to bear on the situation.

This is why I don’t believe there is a universal moral law. There is no ethical decision made by humans that is not affected to some extent by emotion, by subjectivity. We humans have evolved to have rich and varied emotional lives, and one might even say that it is wrong to deny emotional (name removed by moderator)ut into moral decisions - even if it were possible to disengage our emotions - because once again, emotion is something that has a direct bearing on the quality of human life.

As to what I think and believe, there are many things that I personally feel it is right and wrong to do, and this is in line with my personal values. I am, for example, outraged by what is referred to as honour killing, because it offends almost every value I hold. But it is I - and the many others who abhor the practice - who condemn it, not the universe. It is only by changing the values of those who practice it that we will ever get them to believe it is fundamentally wrong, and that approach carries its own set of ethical considerations… In any case, the conclusion you draw from my reasoning is only accurate to the extent that there exist multiple conceptions of “right” in the world, and although they may be incompatible, they can and do co-exist. But I would suggest that no single action can be held to be equally right and wrong within the mind of one person.
 
Most people disgree with me. So what?
As I pointed out, your particular comment was demonstrably incorrect. That’s a little different from merely asserting disagreement.
Does that follow from my remark {that morality is a meaningless term}? I don’t think so.
If morality is a meaningless term then it makes little sense to act in any way other than in ones best interest, and concern for others is foolish if it negatively impacts us: so why would one not rob or kill if he thought he could get away with it?
There are all sorts of human behavior, all being judged by the others surrounding them.
Yes, but this has nothing to do with your personal definition of morality. You have said both that morality is a meaningless term and that what one calls moral is purely a personal invention - but you object to my assumption that this would allow you to pillage and plunder if you could do it without getting caught. This is confusing: if morality is meaningless, what, other than force, keeps you from e.g. shoplifting?

Ender
 
If morality is a meaningless term then it makes little sense to act in any way other than in ones best interest, and concern for others is foolish if it negatively impacts us: so why would one not rob or kill if he thought he could get away with it?
Ah, I think I might have identified the source of contention here. Claiming that morality is subjective is absolutely not the same as claiming that it is meaningless.

To illustrate the point, I could claim that a teenager’s romantic infatuation with a classmate is ultimately meaningless, but I would be wrong - in fact, it has a great deal of meaning for the young person involved, and may have a lasting psychological impact for him/her. It certainly isn’t rational, but neither can it be simply discounted on that basis.

Having stated that I don’t believe there is an all-encompassing, universally binding moral authority, I would still go on to say that my ethics are very deeply meaningful to me, because they affect how I live my life, and that in turn affects the lives of others with whom I interact. What could be more meaningful?
 
]quote=Sair;5025924]Ah, I think I might have identified the source of contention here. Claiming that morality is subjective is absolutely not the same as claiming that it is meaningless.
In other words, it would be like claiming that one’s personal feelings, brain, instinct, past knowledge, mind, heart, etc., are meaningless because they are being used by the person to make a decision.
 
Ah, I think I might have identified the source of contention here. Claiming that morality is subjective is absolutely not the same as claiming that it is meaningless.
“Claiming that morality is subjective is absolutely not the same as claiming that it is meaningless.” from Sair.

It would be like saying that one’s own personal brains, emotions, experiences, instincts, memory, desires, dreams, are meaningless because they are different in degrees from others.
 
As I pointed out, your particular comment was demonstrably incorrect. That’s a little different from merely asserting disagreement.
I saw no demonstration. You only said that many people have questions about morality.
If morality is a meaningless term then it makes little sense to act in any way other than in ones best interest, and concern for others is foolish if it negatively impacts us: so why would one not rob or kill if he thought he could get away with it?
Ah, but you do not differentiate between short term and long term goals. If one only sees short term personal gratification then it is sensible to walk through everyone else, and try to grab the biggest slice in the pie, which is a pretty dumb behavior. There are people like that, but fortunately not too many.
Yes, but this has nothing to do with your personal definition of morality. You have said both that morality is a meaningless term and that what one calls moral is purely a personal invention - but you object to my assumption that this would allow you to pillage and plunder if you could do it without getting caught. This is confusing: if morality is meaningless, what, other than force, keeps you from e.g. shoplifting?
Simple. I was not brought up that way. And I look at the long term goals, too.
 
It would be like saying that one’s own personal brains, emotions, experiences, instincts, memory, desires, dreams, are meaningless because they are different in degrees from others.
I did not say “meaningless”, I said useless. And indeed to say that there is “ONE absolute set of emotions, experiences, instincts, memory, desires, dreams” would be meaningless. 🙂
 
I did not say “meaningless”, I said useless. And indeed to say that there is “ONE absolute set of emotions, experiences, instincts, memory, desires, dreams” would be meaningless. 🙂
Hi Spock,

I’ll reprint my post 134 here. It was in reply to Sair’s thought provoking post 133, definitely not your post
“Claiming that morality is subjective is absolutely not the same as claiming that it is meaningless.” from Sair.

It would be like saying that one’s own personal brains, emotions, experiences, instincts, memory, desires, dreams, are meaningless because they are different in degrees from others.
Frankly, I can’t imagine one absolute set of emotions, experiences, instincts, memory, desires, and dreams". They are so subjective within each and every individual.

Blessings,
granny

All human life is worthy of profound respect.
 
Just a few more thoughts on the direction taken by the latter posts in this thread.

It seems that the title I chose - “Towards a Common Ethic” was fairly apt, since what seems to be happening, through all the discussion of subjectivity, objectivity, obedience, rational choice, etc. is that we are gradually working our way towards realising that although we start from different postitions, and make different assessments and evaluations along the way, ultimately it’s possible that we may end up in the same place.
 
Just a few more thoughts on the direction taken by the latter posts in this thread.

It seems that the title I chose - “Towards a Common Ethic” was fairly apt, since what seems to be happening, through all the discussion of subjectivity, objectivity, obedience, rational choice, etc. is that we are gradually working our way towards realising that although we start from different postitions, and make different assessments and evaluations along the way, ultimately it’s possible that we may end up in the same place.
I agree. Thank you.
 
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