Traditional Catholic

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A.Pelliccio

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Can anyone describe to me the prayer, patterns, or attributes of a Traditional Catholic? Like I saw a man today in mass today kneel while he was receiving communion. I want to practice that and do some research. If anyone has anything on it, greatly appreciated.

This doesn’t necessarily pertain to the mass being in Latin.
 
Let’s see here, it applies to anybody:

For starters:

-No Communion in hand
-kneeling for Communion,
-Recieve Communion from priest/deacon only
-Pray the Rosary
-learn a little Latin
-No meat on all Fridays.
-Daily Mass
-Holy Hour
-Wear nice and modest clothes(women often wear mantillas or hats)
-Silence in the Church
-Geneflect facing the tabernacle
-no holding hands during the Our Father
-Family Rosary
-Tip off your hat when passing your parish
-Ask priest for a blessing on knees
-when a priest enters a room, all stand until he allows you to sit.
-Grace before meals
 
Missal are nice because they contain the Text of the Mass, Propers, daily prayers, information, and devotions.
-put crucifixes, statues, and religious painting around your house.
-You will often see modest ladies wearing dresses or skirts.
 
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Iohannes:
Let’s see here, it applies to anybody:

For starters:

-No Communion in hand *
-kneeling for Communion, *
-Recieve Communion from priest/deacon only *
-Pray the Rosary
-learn a little Latin *
-No meat on all Fridays.
-Daily Mass
-Holy Hour
-Wear nice and modest clothes(women often wear mantillas or hats)
-Silence in the Church
-Geneflect facing the tabernacle
-no holding hands during the Our Father
-Family Rosary
-Tip off your hat when passing your parish *
-Ask priest for a blessing on knees
-when a priest enters a room, all stand until he allows you to sit.*
-Grace before meals
I agree with most of what Iohannes say but not all.

1.Though I would prefer people to receive Communion on the tongue you have a right to receive in your hands.
  1. The norm is not to kneel but to stand for Communion. Watch the Papal Mass or Mass on EWTN.
  2. It is no less Jesus Christ whether received from a priest, deacon or extrordinary minister.
  3. The norm for Mass is in the vernacular.
  4. How about making the Sign of the Cross when passing a Catholic Church.
I don’t neccessary feel a need to stand when a priest enters a room but I have out of courtesy and welcoming.

Blessings and Peace,
DigitalDeacon
 
-Tip off your hat when passing your parish
I was raised to always make the Sign of the Cross whenever passing by any Catholic church, as a sign of respect to Jesus residing within.

Also, we crossed ourselves and said a prayer every time an ambulance raced by (for the health/soul of the person in need).

I teach both of these to my children now.

I would also add frequent confession, frequent novenas/devotions, and frequent prayers for the poor souls in purgatory (including the offering of suffering as reparation).

👍 Cricket
 
-Daily Mass
-Holy Hour- whats this u mean just be in prayer for an hour?
-Wear nice and modest clothes(women often wear mantillas or hats)
-Geneflect facing the tabernacle - whats this?
-no holding hands during the Our Father - why?
-Ask priest for a blessing on knees - whats this
-when a priest enters a room, all stand until he allows you to sit.

thanks for your help!
 
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A.Pelliccio:
Can anyone describe to me the prayer, patterns, or attributes of a Traditional Catholic? Like I saw a man today in mass today kneel while he was receiving communion. I want to practice that and do some research. If anyone has anything on it, greatly appreciated.

This doesn’t necessarily pertain to the mass being in Latin.
Oh no, not the “definition of a Traditional Catholic” again. I have been wrestling with this myself lately, since I only recently discovered that the Mass used to be very different and all in Latin, which leads one down a slippery slope into all the “Traditionalist” stuff.

So you want to kneel for communion. I suppose you think it is “more reverent”. But the established norm in the US is:
  • We receive standing.
  • We receive in the hand or on the tongue, completely at our option.
  • We receive from a priest or from an extraordinary minister, completely at our option.
    The Church gives the bishops the authority to set these norms. To me, this means that the church says if you follow the norms, you are doing what’s required and if you are tempted to spend your energy figuring out how you can be “more reverent”, spend that time elsewhere instead.
Now, it is true that Rome has instructed priests that they must not deny communion to people who insist on kneeling anyway. But standing IS the expected norm in the US. Suppose someone else thinks that to “really” be reverent, they must lie on the floor and close one eye. Sure it sounds silly, but where do you draw the line?

Back to the “reverence” argument. We are asked to obey our bishops and priests. Again, the church gives them the authority to set the liturgical rules. The “Traditionalist” argument seems to ignore this.

Another thing you must consider is the effect your actions have on others, even if unintentional. Will your actions lead people to question what you are doing, and to question whether their own actions are correct? The nun seems to have had an effect on you, leading you to question your own reception of communion was probably just fine.

For example, when Eucharistic Ministers were introduced “way back” in the 1970’s, our small parish had an EM give communion to one side of the church and the priest to the other side. Well, there was one family who insisted on sitting on the “EM side” but always went through all sorts of contortions to get into the other line. They never said why, and no one ever asked. But whatever their motive, they always looked pretty foolish doing so, and I remember it 25 years later. So again, consider the impacts of your actions on others.

To sum up, don’t get too carried away in the name of “Traditionalism”. Lots of people still have wonderful “pious traditions” like saying grace and the Rosary, candles and statues and scapulars and stuff like that… and follow “correct behaviors” like genuflecting and being quiet in church… AND show proper respect and reverence for the Church by following the liturgical norms. To me “Traditionalism” is the stuff that crosses the line, that goes beyond the modern norms by continuing to cling to practices that are no longer required, usually for good reason.

I hope this helps. No doubt others will disagree.
 
A.Pelliccio said:
-Daily Mass
-Holy Hour- whats this u mean just be in prayer for an hour?
-Wear nice and modest clothes(women often wear mantillas or hats)
-Geneflect facing the tabernacle - whats this?
-no holding hands during the Our Father - why?
-Ask priest for a blessing on knees - whats this
-when a priest enters a room, all stand until he allows you to sit.

thanks for your help!/QU

I think the holy hour is 3:00 (or is that the hour of mercy) are they both the same thing?
 
  1. You are not allowed to recieve Communion in the Hand at a Traditional Latin Mass or any country that does not have an indult. The universal norm is in the Tongue, and indult is needed for Communion in the Hand, U.S has one.
  2. Kneeling is ok, no priest can refuse for anyone kneeling. Kneeling has been a norm for the Latin Rite for a long time until the 1970’s.
  3. It is not less Jesus, but less reverent and more offensive if there is an extravagant use of EMHC. EMHC should only be used in emergencies or “if there is not enough ‘time’”.
In a TLM, priests who did not celebrate Mass would come put their surplice and stole on and distrubute Communion in the altar rails, now priests do not even do that anymore. Priests should always dispense Holy Communion at Mass if they are available.
  1. Incorrect the norm for the Mass is actually Latin. Vernacular needs permission.
  2. Sign of the Cross is good
  3. Again, it is a custom and a sign of respect. In Hispanic countries people would kiss the hand of priest because it is the priest who handles the Blessed Sacrament.
Holy Hour is not the same as the Hour of Mercy.
Holy Hour is the Exposition of the Holy Eucharist in a monstrance, it the time you Adore the Blessed Sacrament.
 
The Question is what are the patterns of a Traditional Catholic or those who follow the Traditional Latin Mass. Not what is the norm of an average St. Suburbia Parish.
 
-Daily Mass
-Holy Hour- whats this u mean just be in prayer for an hour?
-Wear nice and modest clothes(women often wear mantillas or hats)
-Geneflect facing the tabernacle - whats this?
-no holding hands during the Our Father - why?
-Ask priest for a blessing on knees - whats this
-when a priest enters a room, all stand until he allows you to sit.
-A Tabernacle is where the Blessed Sacrament is placed. Therefore we should give Jesus respect and Geneflect when He is in the Tabernacle.

-Holding Hands during the Our Father is not in the rubrics and has never been done until Charismatics came into the scene. It is not appropriate for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass especially right after the Consecration when our focus should be at the Altar, not holding hands. There is another thread for that.
  • You can ask any priest to bless you. Just ask “Father Bless”.
 
Iohannes said:
1. You are not allowed to recieve Communion in the Hand at a Traditional Latin Mass or any country that does not have an indult. The universal norm is in the Tongue, and indult is needed for Communion in the Hand, U.S has one.
  1. Kneeling is ok, no priest can refuse for anyone kneeling. Kneeling has been a norm for the Latin Rite for a long time until the 1970’s.
  2. It is not less Jesus, but less reverent and more offensive if there is an extravagant use of EMHC. EMHC should only be used in emergencies or “if there is not enough ‘time’”.
In a TLM, priests who did not celebrate Mass would come put their surplice and stole on and distrubute Communion in the altar rails, now priests do not even do that anymore. Priests should always dispense Holy Communion at Mass if they are available.
  1. Incorrect the norm for the Mass is actually Latin. Vernacular needs permission.
  2. Sign of the Cross is good
  3. Again, it is a custom and a sign of respect. In Hispanic countries people would kiss the hand of priest because it is the priest who handles the Blessed Sacrament.
Holy Hour is not the same as the Hour of Mercy.
Holy Hour is the Exposition of the Holy Eucharist in a monstrance, it the time you Adore the Blessed Sacrament.

Just a couple of clarifications…
  1. The US has an indult for receiving on the hand. This indult is legitimate. One can hardly question this practice, while also defending the Mass of 1962 which is celebrated under indult.
  2. Kneeling WAS the norm. It is no longer the norm. Standing is the norm. There is no indult for kneeling. The Congregation has been generous enough to say that a priest should not refuse communion because of posture. However, that instruction does not change the fact that standing is the norm. Obediant Catholics who follow the norms of the Holy Church, stand.
  3. While the extravagant use of EMHC is wrong, it is certainly not possible to accuse the communicants of participating in wrongdoing by receiving from the EMHC.
 
  1. The US has an indult for receiving on the hand. This indult is legitimate. One can hardly question this practice, while also defending the Mass of 1962 which is celebrated under indult.
  1. Kneeling WAS the norm. It is no longer the norm. Standing is the norm. There is no indult for kneeling. The Congregation has been generous enough to say that a priest should not refuse communion because of posture. However, that instruction does not change the fact that standing is the norm. Obediant Catholics who follow the norms of the Holy Church, stand.
  1. While the extravagant use of EMHC is wrong, it is certainly not possible to accuse the communicants of participating in wrongdoing by receiving from the EMHC.
  1. Receiving in the hand is not doctrine, but discipline. I question it myself because of the decline of belief in the Real Presence. Bl. Mother Teresa even thought the biggest problem was receiving in the Hand.
  2. How is kneeling for communion disobediant? and a priest may not refuse anyone kneeling for Communion, simple as that. I know of two Novus Ordo Masses that kneel for Communion. Geez even some Protestants kneel for their communion.
  3. No they are not accused of wrong doing, only the people in charge who allow the extravagant use of EMHC are the culprits.
Please stay on track, the question was what are the patterns of a Traditional Catholic.
 
The USCCB in summer of 2002 tried to ban kneeling, but when word of this got out, many Bishops such as Cardinal Eagan said kneeling was still lict. In late 2002 and early 2003, the Council of Divine Worshop sent a couple of letters stateing that kneeling for communion was not to be considerd dis obidient. Lastly, in the latest liturgical guidlines, it stated kneeling was lict, and it trumped whatever the USCCB had to say about it.

I know of two parishes in my diocese, both only using the current misal, including the one I currently attend, that use the altar rail for communion, and the Bishop respects the tradition in both of these parishes.
 
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Iohannes:
  1. Again, it is a custom and a sign of respect. In Hispanic countries people would kiss the hand of priest because it is the priest who handles the Blessed Sacrament.
St. John Chrysostom is said to have taught that if one were to encounter a priest and an angel walking side-by-side, it would be proper and appropriate to first greet the priest and kiss his hand, for his is the hand that bears the privilege of actually touching the Body and Blood of Our Lord.

The imagery of that statement has always served me well as a means of maintaining appropriate respect for the sanctity of the priesthood.

a pilgrim
 
Ham1 said:
2. Kneeling WAS the norm. It is no longer the norm. Standing is the norm. There is no indult for kneeling. The Congregation has been generous enough to say that a priest should not refuse communion because of posture. However, that instruction does not change the fact that standing is the norm. Obediant Catholics who follow the norms of the Holy Church, stand.

I have in my possession a response from a dubium put to the Congregation of Divine Worship and the Sacraments (CDW), which avers that Catholics who kneel for Holy Communion cannot be accused of disobedience. (The instruction to which it refers can be found on-line, but I don’t have a link handy.) Obedient Catholics, then, the contrary being Catholics who are disobedient, may stand or kneel at their option.

[BTW – and this is an important point – standing is the norm *for the United States and not the entire Church.]

Another traditional discipline which Iohannes curiously did not mention is the custom of kneeling (double genuflexion) when the Blessed Sacrament is exposed for adoration. This was also customary on Maundy Thursday after Our Lord is placed in the altar of repose, and any other occasion when one might visit Him until the Easter Vigil.
 
So, the norm in the US is standing, but it is perfectly okay and not disobedient to ignore this norm?

Here is what the GIRM has to say:

“The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm. When receiving Holy Communion, the communicant bows his or her head before the Sacrament as a gesture of reverence and receives the body of the Lord from the minister” (160).

So, the norm in the US IS standing. Just because a priest is not permitted to withhold communion from one ignoring this norm does not mean that therefore this norm does not apply. A norm is to be obeyed by the faithful.
 
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Ham1:
So, the norm in the US is standing, but it is perfectly okay and not disobedient to ignore this norm?
That’s what the CDW has stated. I urge you to obey this teaching! 😉

Here you go:

ourladyswarriors.org/liturgy/kneeling.htm
To this end, it is perhaps useful to respond to your inquiry by repeating the content of a letter that the Congregation recently addressed to a Bishop in the United States of America from whose Diocese a number of pertinent letters had been received. The letter states: “… while this Congregation gave the recognitio to the norm desired by the Bishops’ Conference of your country that people stand for Holy Communion, this was done on the condition that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds. Indeed, the faithful should not be imposed upon nor accused of disobedience and of acting illicitly when they kneel to receive Holy Communion”.
So those who kneel to receive Holy Communion are not being disobedient, they are not acting illicitly, and, in fact, they cannot be forced not to kneel.
 
Iohannes said:
1. Receiving in the hand is not doctrine, but discipline. I question it myself because of the decline of belief in the Real Presence. Bl. Mother Teresa even thought the biggest problem was receiving in the Hand.
  1. How is kneeling for communion disobediant? and a priest may not refuse anyone kneeling for Communion, simple as that. I know of two Novus Ordo Masses that kneel for Communion. Geez even some Protestants kneel for their communion.
  2. No they are not accused of wrong doing, only the people in charge who allow the extravagant use of EMHC are the culprits.
Please stay on track, the question was what are the patterns of a Traditional Catholic.

The followup questions that the OP has asked (e.g. “what’s a tabernacle?”) clearly show that this is someone who’s not very advanced in their knowledge of liturgy. He clearly used the term “Traditional” without really understanding all the ugly politics behind it. (I was at the same point myself not too long ago - I used to describe myself as “traditional” simply because I dislike hand-holding. I no longer use the term.)

I think the OP would be very well advised to stay obedient to the norms is his diocese and his parish. Don’t argue that the established norms are insufficient, that “you know better”. It can only lead to trouble.
 
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