Traditional Catholic

[Ham1]

swampfox:

Consider regular attendance at a Tridentine Mass for starters

Why?

 

[dcs]

Ham1:

I just love how these guys scramble to justify what THEY want to do, instead of looking at what the CHURCH asks them to do!

::sigh:: It is not the case that THE CHURCH is asking us to stand for Holy Communion. The Bishops of the United States are not THE CHURCH.

It’s particularly instructive that if the whole kneeling/standing directives were reversed they would be railing on those who choose to stand!

Yes, because standing to receive Holy Communion is not traditional, and kneeling is. It really isn’t that difficult to understand. The two postures do not have the same value in the Roman Rite, where kneeling is the posture of reverence. Surely you’re not going to argue that standing is more reverent than kneeling to Latin Catholics? Do you teach your kids to stand by their bedsides when saying their nightly prayers?

It makes it pretty clear that for them this is not about what the Church wants, it’s about what they want!

If you would rephrase that statement as: “this is not about what the American bishops want,” then you might have a point.

 

[Ham1]

Once again…

What is the norm as specified by the US bishops with CDW approval for reception of communion in the US?

If the CDW did not approve it, then I would agree with you, but they did and since the CDW approved it, it is binding.

Tradition is important and I agree that over the last several hundred years kneeling was the tradition, but tradition can also be changed. That decision to change is not up to you, it is up to the Church.

 

[Iohannes]

Congregation de Cultu Divino et Disciplina Sacramentorum

Prot. n. 1322/02/L

Rome, 1 July 2002

Your Excellency,

This Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments has recently received reports of members of the faithful in your Diocese being refused Holy Communion unless while standing to receive, as opposed to kneeling. The reports state that such a policy has been announced to parishioners. There were possible indications that such a phenomenon might be somewhat more widespread in the Diocese, but the Congregation is unable to verify whether such is the case. This Dicastery is confident that Your Excellency will be in a position to make a more reliable determination of the matter, and these complaints in any event provide an occasion for the Congregation to communicate the manner in which it habitually addresses this matter, with a request that you make this position known to any priests who may be in need of being thus informed.

The Congregation in fact is concerned at the number of similar complaints that it has received in recent months from various places, and considers any refusal of Holy Communion to a member of the faithful on the basis of his or her kneeling posture to be a grave violation of one of the most basic rights of the Christian faithful, namely that of being assisted by their Pastors by means of the Sacraments (Codex Iuris Canonici, canon 213). In view of the law that “sacred ministers may not deny the sacraments to those who opportunely ask for them, are properly disposed and are not prohibited by law from receiving them” (canon 843 ¶ 1), there should be no such refusal to any Catholic who presents himself for Holy Communion at Mass, except in cases presenting a danger of grave scandal to other believers arising out of the person’s unrepented public sin or obstinate heresy or schism, publicly professed or declared. Even where the Congregation has approved of legislation denoting standing as the posture for Holy Communion, in accordance with the adaptations permitted to the Conferences of Bishops by the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani n. 160, paragraph 2, it has done so with the stipulation that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds.

In fact, as His Eminence, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has recently emphasized, the practice of kneeling for Holy Communion has in its favor a centuries-old tradition, and it is a particularly expressive sign of adoration, completely appropriate in light of the true, real and substantial presence of Our Lord Jesus Christ under the consecrated species.

Given the importance of this matter, the Congregation would request that Your Excellency inquire specifically whether this priest in fact has a regular practice of refusing Holy Communion to any member of the faithful in the circumstances described above and – if the complaint is verified – that you also firmly instruct him and any other priests who may have had such a practice to refrain from acting thus in the future. Priests should understand that the Congregation will regard future complaints of this nature with great seriousness, and if they are verified, it intends to seek disciplinary action consonant with the gravity of the pastoral abuse.

Thanking Your Excellency for your attention to this matter and relying on your kind collaboration in its regard,

Sincerely yours in Christ,

Jorge A. Cardinal Medina Estévez
Prefect

+Francesco Pio Tamburrino
Archbishop Secretary

 

[Iohannes]

It is not hard to understand.

The Church says it is ok to Kneel for Holy Communion, as a result we can kneel for Holy Communion.

 

[Iohannes]

Canon law is higher than “Norms”.

 

[Ham1]

ABSOLUTELY!

Any priest or EMHC who denies communion based on posture is completely out of line.

The norm in the US, as approved by Rome, remains standing. Period.

It is an entirely separate question as to whether one should be denied communion because of posture. Clearly, they should not.

 

[Iohannes]

Ham1:

ABSOLUTELY!

Any priest or EMHC who denies communion based on posture is completely out of line.

The norm in the US, as approved by Rome, remains standing. Period.

It is an entirely separate question as to whether one should be denied communion because of posture. Clearly, they should not.

If they cannot deny a person kneeling, then it is ok to kneel for Holy Communion. There are parishes around this country that kneel for Communion. St. Mary’s by the Sea in Hunginton Beach is one example.

I am not saying that kneeling is the “norm” in this country, I am just saying that all Catholics have the right to kneel for Holy Communion without the fear of being accused of disobidence.

Glad We can clear things up.

 

[Detroit_Sue]

Let’s see here, it applies to anybody:

For starters:

-No Communion in hand Never
-kneeling for Communion, Sometimes
-Recieve Communion from priest/deacon only Preferred, but not required
-Pray the RosaryEvery day…Don’t you?
-learn a little Latin The entire English language consists of "a little Latin."
-No meat on all Fridays. Except on a feast day
-Daily Mass** Impossible with work schedule. Go as often as possible, though.**
-Holy Hour I did at least one hour a week for about 5 years.
-Wear nice and modest clothes(women often wear mantillas or hats) No bare shoulders - always cover head.
-Silence in the Church Reverence is optional?
-Geneflect facing the tabernacle Absolutely
-no holding hands during the Our Father Never
-Family Rosary Missed the boat on that one, conversion came when kids were older
-Tip off your hat when passing your parish I see older gentlemen do it all the time. I think it’s sweet.
-Ask priest for a blessing on knees Always
-when a priest enters a room, all stand until he allows you to sit. Now that you mention it…
-Grace before meals And after!

 

[Detroit_Sue]

Melman:

For example, when Eucharistic Ministers were introduced “way back” in the 1970’s, our small parish had an EM give communion to one side of the church and the priest to the other side. Well, there was one family who insisted on sitting on the “EM side” but always went through all sorts of contortions to get into the other line. They never said why, and no one ever asked. But whatever their motive, they always looked pretty foolish doing so, and I remember it 25 years later. So again, consider the impacts of your actions on others.

This is a good reason not to receive from an EMHC. They are NOT Eucharistic Ministers. The only ordinary minister of the Eucharist is the priest. The Deacon is the minister of the Cup. The laity are EXTRAORDINARY ministers of Holy Communion. This means that the laity instructed in distribution of Holy Communion may be used when there is a need. The very word “Extraordinary” indiacates that they are not to be utilized when the priest is capable of distributing Communion without assistance.

Vent over. Carry on.

 

[maggiec]

DaveBj:

Kneeling!!!

Glad you said that!!! :yawn:

 

[catholiclady]

One point that I have not seen addressed here is that when attending a Tridentine Mass the “norm” is in accordance with the 1962 missal and not any new “norms” about kneeling or standing and the indult for receiving in the hand does not apply either.

It has been made clear by Rome that there be no “mixing” of rites and so it has to be done as it was then and it was done the same universally and not different in every country or diocese, etc.

Probably one of the many things those of us who prefer the Tridentine rite appreciate is the consistency and reliability of it always being the same, no innovations, no abuses and no variations from parish to parish, diocese to diocese or country to country.

 

[system]

catholiclady:

Probably one of the many things those of us who prefer the Tridentine rite appreciate is the consistency and reliability of it always being the same, no innovations, no abuses and no variations from parish to parish, diocese to diocese or country to country.

I assume you’re referring to today’s Indult Masses, which are obviously said very carefully and precisely.

Because my understanding of the reason that V-II decided to revise the Mass in the first place, was because of the abuses of the time… among them being the “12-minute low mass”, people showing up just for Communion and/or not paying attention, and parts being said in the vernacular even though they weren’t supposed to be? Were there other common problems?

(I’m just asking, really - I have only known the New Mass all my life, and an Indult Mass just started in my area this week.)

 

[Iohannes]

Other problems included:
-lighting 6 candles for a Low Mass
-Praying "Corpus Domini nostri Jesu Christi custodiat animam tuam in vitam aeternam. Amen. " to more than one person.

 

[Ham1]

Although I am sure it was not widespread…

Another problem that was witnessed by my father on a couple of occasions was that the priest skipped the consecration. Fortunately, my grandfather who knew Latin was able to retrieve another priest from the rectory and make sure that communion was distributed with hosts from the tabernacle.

 

[TradCatholic]

Ham1:

Why?

Well it was good enough for 95+% of all the Church’s Saints.

 

[Ham1]

Well considering that was the ordo missae at the time they didn’t really have a choice.

95+% of the saints also did not bathe regularly or wear deodorant.

 

[dcs]

Ham1:

Another problem that was witnessed by my father on a couple of occasions was that the priest skipped the consecration. Fortunately, my grandfather who knew Latin was able to retrieve another priest from the rectory and make sure that communion was distributed with hosts from the tabernacle.

Was he serving at the altar? That’s the only way he would know, the consecration in the traditional Mass is silent.

 

[Ham1]

dcs:

Was he serving at the altar? That’s the only way he would know, the consecration in the traditional Mass is silent.

Yes.