C
childofmary1143
Guest
Exactly!!!
- Status
C
childofmary1143
Guest
Indeed
J
jco2004
Guest
Too bad the Theotokos didn’t give a detailed instruction manual at Fatima.
This kind of rank legalism and superstition is proof enough of the corruption of the present day western church. Joe
D
DustinsDad
Guest
Darn legalists! Expecting a concecration of Russia to actually mention Russia! The nerve!!!
What do you expect from a bunch of superstitous folks…they probably even believe in miracles!
J
jco2004
Guest
I believe in miracles. What I don’t believe in is God hinging the salvation of a nation on the fulfillment of some arcane ritual down to the smallest detail. That is insanity. Joe
B
Brennan_Doherty
Guest
B
Brennan_Doherty
Guest
Actually naming the country you are attempting to consecrate isn’t a small detail.
D
DustinsDad
Guest
I don’t have a link to the original source, but the quote has been used quite a bit in articles relating to Fatima…the original source for the quote seems to be:
Msgr. Georges Roche, Pie XII, Devant L’Histoire (Paris: Editions Robert Laffont, 1972), p. 52-53.
Peace in Christ,
DustinsDad
B
Brennan_Doherty
Guest
Thanks. I think it is also quoted in The Great Facade. Also, and I didn’t make this clear in my original post, I am looking for a link to the article that was said to be written by Fr. Kramer and contained this quote:
Quote:
"The Secret was brought to me, I looked at it, and the first thing I said is, “This is not the Secret!” I was not alone in making that judgment. A seminary professor, who is a close friend of Pope John Paul II, and who also knows personally Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, has the same impression — this is not the Third Secret.
It cannot be.
And so when he [The Seminary professor] went to the Vatican, he visited Cardinal Ratzinger, and he confronted him. He did not mince his words. He said, “This is impossible! This can- not possibly be the entire Third Secret!” And he insisted that Ratzinger answer him yes or no. “Is this the whole thing? Is this the whole thing, or isn’t it? It cannot be; now you tell me!” Ratzinger admitted "Truly, that was not all of it.
This professor is a priest that I know personally, and a number of people that I know, know this priest personally. He pressed on further for an answer [from Cardinal Ratzinger], he would not back off. And he demanded, “What is in the Secret? If that’s not all of it, well, what is there?” Ratzinger’s answer makes it clear. There’s no longer any mystery why they have kept it hidden for so many years. And why the Vatican officials, during the pontificate of Pope John XXIII, said in their press release that, “It may never be published,” it may not ever be released. Ratzinger said that in the Third Secret, Our Lady warns that there will be an evil council. And She warned against the changes: She warned against making changes in the liturgy; changes in the Mass. This is explicitly set forth in the Third Secret. "
And this seems to be separate from the prophecy Pope Pius XII gave regarding the liturgy. So if anyone knows a link to the original Fr. Kramer article please let me know. Thank you.
O
OutinChgoburbs
Guest
I don’t suppose anybody will believe my research, if that person wants to see something that isn’t there, but here:
http://www.ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/ZUGLUCIA.HTM
http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFLUCIA.HTM
http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CCLGRNER.HTM
http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/fr_gruner_old.htm And from the site: "Although those who questioned the Roman Congregation of the Clergy were told that his faculties had been suspended, Fr. Gruner proclaimed himself innocent of disobedience and was appealing to the highest ecclesiastical court, the Apostolic Signatura. As a result, charity and justice obliged that reserve be taken in judging the matter, until such time as his status was definitively judged by the Holy See. His appeal having been rejected by the Signatura, such reserve is no longer justified." (emphasis mine)
http://www.unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/FATHER%
20NICHOLAS%20GRUNER.html
http://www.santuario-fatima.pt/portal/index.php?lang=EN This is the REAL Fatima, not the “fatima.org” led by Gruner.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/ZUGLUCIA.HTM
http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFLUCIA.HTM
http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CCLGRNER.HTM
http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/fr_gruner_old.htm And from the site: "Although those who questioned the Roman Congregation of the Clergy were told that his faculties had been suspended, Fr. Gruner proclaimed himself innocent of disobedience and was appealing to the highest ecclesiastical court, the Apostolic Signatura. As a result, charity and justice obliged that reserve be taken in judging the matter, until such time as his status was definitively judged by the Holy See. His appeal having been rejected by the Signatura, such reserve is no longer justified." (emphasis mine)
http://www.unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/FATHER%
20NICHOLAS%20GRUNER.html
http://www.santuario-fatima.pt/portal/index.php?lang=EN This is the REAL Fatima, not the “fatima.org” led by Gruner.
B
Brennan_Doherty
Guest
What does this have to do with the Consecration of Russia or the Third Secret?
P
puzzleannie
Guest
another characteristic that unfortunately crops up among people who label themselves “traditionalist Catholic” but thankfully is not characteristic of all who merit this designation, is the tendency to claim knowledge, power and insight for themselves that are reserved to the popes and magesterium, or that popes do not even claim for themselves.
B
Bob67
Guest
Before Msgr Pacelli became Pope Pius XII and while he was the Secretary of State at the Vatican,
his biographer Msgr Roche recorded two statements that he made.
**“I AM WORRIED BY THE BLESSED VIRGIN’S MESSAGES TO LUCY AT FATIMA.
THIS PERSISTENCE OF MARY ABOUT THE DANGERS WHICH MENACE THE CHURCH IS A DIVINE WARNING AGAINST THE SUICIDE THAT WOULD BE REPRESENTED BY THE ALTERATION OF THE FAITH, IN HER LITURGY, HER THEOLOGY AND HER SOUL… I HEAR ALL AROUND ME INNOVATORS WHO WISH TO DISMANTLE THE SACRED CHAPEL, DESTROY THE UNIVERSAL FLAME OF THE CHURCH, REJECT HER ORNAMENTS AND MAKE HER FEEL REMORSE FOR HER HISTORICAL PAST.”
"A DAY WILL COME WHEN THE CIVILIZED WORLD WILL DENY ITS GOD, WHEN THE CHURCH WILL DOUBT AS PETER DOUBTED. SHE WILL BE TEMPTED TO BELIEVE THAT MAN HAS BECOME GOD. IN OUR CHURCHES, CHRISTIANS WILL SEARCH IN VAIN FOR THE RED LAMP WHERE GOD AWAITS THEM. LIKE MARY MAGDALENE, WEEPING BEFORE THE TOMB, THEY WILL ASK,
“WHERE HAVE THEY TAKEN HIM?”"**
**devilsfinalbattle.com/ch13.htm
The “Prophecy” of Bella Dodd (Very Interesting!)
fatimaperspectives.com/cs/perspective235.asp**
his biographer Msgr Roche recorded two statements that he made.
**“I AM WORRIED BY THE BLESSED VIRGIN’S MESSAGES TO LUCY AT FATIMA.
THIS PERSISTENCE OF MARY ABOUT THE DANGERS WHICH MENACE THE CHURCH IS A DIVINE WARNING AGAINST THE SUICIDE THAT WOULD BE REPRESENTED BY THE ALTERATION OF THE FAITH, IN HER LITURGY, HER THEOLOGY AND HER SOUL… I HEAR ALL AROUND ME INNOVATORS WHO WISH TO DISMANTLE THE SACRED CHAPEL, DESTROY THE UNIVERSAL FLAME OF THE CHURCH, REJECT HER ORNAMENTS AND MAKE HER FEEL REMORSE FOR HER HISTORICAL PAST.”
"A DAY WILL COME WHEN THE CIVILIZED WORLD WILL DENY ITS GOD, WHEN THE CHURCH WILL DOUBT AS PETER DOUBTED. SHE WILL BE TEMPTED TO BELIEVE THAT MAN HAS BECOME GOD. IN OUR CHURCHES, CHRISTIANS WILL SEARCH IN VAIN FOR THE RED LAMP WHERE GOD AWAITS THEM. LIKE MARY MAGDALENE, WEEPING BEFORE THE TOMB, THEY WILL ASK,
“WHERE HAVE THEY TAKEN HIM?”"**
**devilsfinalbattle.com/ch13.htm
The “Prophecy” of Bella Dodd (Very Interesting!)
fatimaperspectives.com/cs/perspective235.asp**
A
ASimpleSinner
Guest
Amen - I was about to type the same.
I am not the pope, I am not a bishop, I am not even an altar boy any more…
What I can do - scapular, Rosary, friday devotions, confession, weekday Mass attendance - I do. What isn’t for me to do, I pray gets done by those who are to do it… And don’t generally care to speculate further.
O
OutinChgoburbs
Guest
B
Brennan_Doherty
Guest
You haven’t answered my question. What does the status of Fr. Gruner have to do with the Consecration of Russia or the Third Secret?:banghead:
As indeed all the faithful should do.
B
Brennan_Doherty
Guest
Also, I do apologize. I didn’t go to any of the links, I was just responding to the quote about the status of Fr. Gruner.:banghead:
As indeed all the faithful should do.
P
Pax_et_Caritas
Guest
Another interesting point is to consider what Fr. Gruner was punished for. What is preaching heresy at Mass, as so many other Priests do? No. Was it for abusing children? No. Was it for grave liturgical abuses, which have now become the norm? No. Was it for scandelous behavior? No. What then?
Fr. Gruner is being punished because he is not incardinated, which means he has been unable to find a Bishop who would give him faculties. And why is that? Because, whenever he finds a Bishop to Incardinate him, the authorities in Rome who do not like his preaching the Fatima message, send a letter to the Bishop telling him to incardinate Fr. Gruner.
The root “crime” of Father Gruner is preaching the Fatima message and saying the Old Mass, which certain powerful men in authority do not like. Therefore, they prevent him from being incardinated and then punish him for not being incardinated. That is his only “crime”. And you can be sure that if there was something else they could get him for they would.
O
OutinChgoburbs
Guest
If you go to the links, which are through EWTN but are Vatican documents, you will find the status of Father Gruner.To other posters- The Vatican is not doing this to Father Gruner. Father Gruner is doing it to himself. He was told to go back to his bishop, not incardate someplace else.
Instead of worrying about extra secrets, or whether or not our Holy Father and those before him have “correctly” done the consecration- Can’t we just trust him as obedient children, and do what Our Lady asked???
B
Brennan_Doherty
Guest
Well, my entire point in asking the question about what the status of Fr. Gruner has to do with the Consecration of Russia or the Third Secret is that it is my contention that his status really has nothing to do with either. In other words, even if Fr. Gruner came out tomorrow and said he changed his mind and thought the Consecration had already taken place and the Third Secret was fully revealed I wouldn’t necessarily change my mind on those issues unless Fr. Gruner offered good reasons.
To other posters- The Vatican is not doing this to Father Gruner. Father Gruner is doing it to himself. He was told to go back to his bishop, not incardate someplace else.
Instead of worrying about extra secrets, or whether or not our Holy Father and those before him have “correctly” done the consecration- Can’t we just trust him as obedient children, and do what Our Lady asked???
We can do what Our Lady asked and petition the Vatican to consecrate Russia. And I am grateful that journalists like Antonio Socci (who is not associated with Fr. Gruner) who have studied the issues have changed their minds and are publishing their findings.
- Status