Traditionalist and Charismatic

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I don’t mind a little emotion or group meetings, but the image given off by Charismatics of how Charismatics act crazy pisses me off. I wouldn’t mind dropping a message in tongues in at the very end of mass, where announcements and such would be done… but even though I’ve never seen one, a Charismatic mass sounds like a mess. Does anyone know of a video of one? Because what I’m thinking of is a buttload of abuses and lots of dancing, pop music, and shouting in tongues. Which isn’t exactly brilliant.
 
Melchior said:
You mean that no one should accept Jesus in their life? No one should embrace the gifts given to them through Baptism & Confirmation? By accepting Jesus and committing to Him fully they once again accepts the gifts given to them through the Sacraments of Initiation?

I don’t see how this is clear at all, especially when charismatic folks greatly appreciate and celebrate the Sacraments.

Unless you wish to challenge my authenticity towards the Sacraments and the teachings of the Catholic Church.
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I’m sorry if I have been unclear.

The degrading spectacle of an Altar Call that some Protestants and Pentecostals engage in is at issue.

To quote the Catechism:
Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church…
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Baptism alone is what gives us our sanctifying grace, removes our original sin, and allows us our Divine Life.

To suggest otherwise by way of replication of Pentecostals is to fall into heretical and alien doctrine.

So you wish to renew your Baptismal commitment to Jesus?

Fine. But it should be known the Church already has a venue for this on Holy Saturday; it’s called the Renewal of Baptismal Promises.
 
ajpirc said:
And because you can speak tongues does that make you a saint? I like how you point out the flaw of GloriousOrder, yet you don’t say anything about yourself. And your telling us that we’re full of pride. Take the splinter out of your own eye before you point out someone else’s.
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I’ve had GloriousOrder take me to tack before. Actually, I struggle with anger, fear, pusillanimity, misanthropy, pride, presumption, lust, swearing, occasional gluttony, and being “traditional” in a way that makes me fume curses after going to OF Masses because of how badly it’s being practiced, fume about poor catechesis, and fume about laxity, disobedience, and ignorance. 😉

I just call myself conservative because I don’t adhere as closely to the EF and traditional disciplines. But yeah, I’m basically a pissy old fart at heart XDDDD
 
ExLibris said:
I’m sorry if I have been unclear.

The degrading spectacle of an Altar Call that some Protestants and Pentecostals engage in is at issue.

To quote the Catechism:
Baptism alone is what gives us our sanctifying grace, removes our original sin, and allows us our Divine Life.

To suggest otherwise by way of replication of Pentecostals is to fall into heretical and alien doctrine.

So you wish to renew your Baptismal commitment to Jesus?

Fine. But it should be known the Church already has a venue for this on Holy Saturday; it’s called the Renewal of Baptismal Promises.
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Renewal of Baptismal Promises, that’s not to hard to remember or understand.
 
WoundedIcon said:
I’ve had GloriousOrder take me to tack before. Actually, I struggle with anger, fear, pusillanimity, misanthropy, pride, presumption, lust, swearing, occasional gluttony, and being “traditional” in a way that makes me fume curses after going to OF Masses because of how badly it’s being practiced, fume about poor catechesis, and fume about laxity, disobedience, and ignorance. 😉

I just call myself conservative because I don’t adhere as closely to the EF and traditional disciplines. But yeah, I’m basically a pissy old fart at heart XDDDD
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Actually, I’ve taken a few licks on here for being too “OCD” about the liturgy.
 
QUOTE=WoundedIcon;7959765]…being “traditional” in a way that makes me fume curses after going to OF Masses because of how badly it’s being practiced, fume about poor catechesis, and fume about laxity, disobedience, and ignorance.

I’ll have to agree with you on this one.😃
 
I don’t know, most people associate Charismatic gifts with spontaneity, enthusiasm, and a whole “let’s push the limits” spirituality. But for me it draws me to mysticism, ritual symbolism, sacramentalism, and the ethereal and rapturous. Which is why my head wants to explode at certain masses… we have our Royal Deity being sacrificed along to FOLK MUSIC!?

epitj4tpjhrrpirugr5p09u45w9-u45ijnroijp!
 
WoundedIcon said:
I don’t know, most people associate Charismatic gifts with spontaneity, enthusiasm, and a whole “let’s push the limits” spirituality. But for me it draws me to mysticism, ritual symbolism, sacramentalism, and the ethereal and rapturous. Which is why my head wants to explode at certain masses… we have our Royal Deity being sacrificed along to FOLK MUSIC!?

epitj4tpjhrrpirugr5p09u45w9-u45ijnroijp!
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WoundedIcon, please forgive me for being contumelious. I get very indignant at what I presume to be the usual cliché charismatic ‘sort’ (guitars, pop style, screeching, dancing, etc.)! Can you show us a video or direct us to an article describing the sort of Charismatic worship that exemplifies your wishes? 🙂
 
I don’t know much about the Charismatic movement, but from what I’ve read on this thread, it doesn’t sound bad or even unCatholic. It just sounds like it’s not for everyone. I understand that Pope John Paul the Great encouraged it. 🤷
 
Renewal has always had its place in the CC. Monasticism comes out of this idea as well. If one wants to have a Early Church perspective Tertullian (North Africa 2nd C) who was a lawyer and a bit of a Traditionalist (even back then) supported a Charismatic renewal movement called Montanism which spoke in tongues and prophisied.

I have no problem with either TLM or a Charismatic service/ prayer meeting. It is the word of God man can’t live without, not a particular type of liturgy (EF or Of &C.)
 
WoundedIcon said:
I don’t know, most people associate Charismatic gifts with spontaneity, enthusiasm, and a whole “let’s push the limits” spirituality. But for me it draws me to mysticism, ritual symbolism, sacramentalism, and the ethereal and rapturous. Which is why my head wants to explode at certain masses… we have our Royal Deity being sacrificed along to FOLK MUSIC!?

epitj4tpjhrrpirugr5p09u45w9-u45ijnroijp!
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I actually like what you’re saying so far. 👍
 
WoundedIcon said:
I don’t mind a little emotion or group meetings, but the image given off by Charismatics of how Charismatics act crazy pisses me off. I wouldn’t mind dropping a message in tongues in at the very end of mass, where announcements and such would be done… but even though I’ve never seen one, a Charismatic mass sounds like a mess. Does anyone know of a video of one? Because what I’m thinking of is a buttload of abuses and lots of dancing, pop music, and shouting in tongues. Which isn’t exactly brilliant.
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if I went to a Mass like that I would be shocked :eek:

dacning…pop music…shouting… cringe

I actually did go to one “healing Mass” back in the day before I was formally received into the Catholic Church… I’m glad to say - it wasn’t chaotic 🙂 I wouldn’t like the music now… but there was no dancing or shouting, and people were quiet and …stayed in place. It was actually pretty peaceful 🙂 again the music and style wouldn’t suit me now but - it wasn’t horrible. And there were no drums or guitars!! (though they sang modern P&W songs). After the Mass, some people were “prayed over” and “slain in the Spirit”… I didn’t go up, and I’ve never been “prayed over” in my life except by my FSSP priest when he gave me a special blessing (it wasn’t in the charismatic style though). But - it wasn’t chaotic, and peaceful, which was nice 🙂 I have no idea if other “healing Masses” are the same way.

I’ve seen videos on youtube with all the dancing, etc, - I don’t know if it was a Mass or not, but I wouldn’t feel comfortable there now.
WoundedIcon said:
I don’t know, most people associate Charismatic gifts with spontaneity, enthusiasm, and a whole “let’s push the limits” spirituality. But for me it draws me to mysticism, ritual symbolism, sacramentalism, and the ethereal and rapturous. Which is why my head wants to explode at certain masses… we have our Royal Deity being sacrificed along to FOLK MUSIC!?

epitj4tpjhrrpirugr5p09u45w9-u45ijnroijp!
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I know what you mean about folk music… I have the same reaction lol. That is interesting that the charismatic gifts draw you to mysticism more tahan anything spontaneous, enthusiastic, etc… I think I know some Catholic charismatics who are the same way. I definitely feel more comfortable with that 🙂
GloriousOrder said:
WoundedIcon, please forgive me for being contumelious. I get very indignant at what I presume to be the usual cliché charismatic ‘sort’ (guitars, pop style, screeching, dancing, etc.)! Can you show us a video or direct us to an article describing the sort of Charismatic worship that exemplifies your wishes? 🙂
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I also don’t feel comfortable with the things you listed 🙂 I think when WoundedIcon was talking about the charismatic gifts, - they were talking about the actual gifts more, rather than the liturgical style that sometimes (not always!) accompanies the charismatic renewal.

Sometimes God can work through these things… like there was a time when I was going through a lot of doubt and believed that God wouldn’t forgive me of a sin, but couldn’t bring myself to trust Him… I went to a Catholic charismatic rally with some friends, and they had Adoration and a Mass, among other things like speeches. Adoration was done quite traditionally, people were singing the Divine Mercy chaplet, and there was a Eucharistic procession with incense etc. During that Adoration, - God really did something miraculous and took away all my doubt, and I felt incredible peace and recognized His presence in the Eucharist. I actually cried the whole time lol but the experience went way beyond any emotion, though there was consolation as well of course. During the Mass, I felt very uncomfortable with the music and the number of EMHCs, - it wasn’t my style at all… but I knew Jesus is still there in the Eucharist, and He used that day to help me in a big way. So - Im only sharing this - not to say anything about myself, - I’m a horrible sinner who always gets myself into trouble and then God mercifully rescues me 🙂 but to say that God works through what is available to us. And of course, wherever the Eucharist is. I prefer traditional things because of their reverence towards the Eucharist, and because I pray more easily there.
 
GloriousOrder said:
WoundedIcon, please forgive me for being contumelious. I get very indignant at what I presume to be the usual cliché charismatic ‘sort’ (guitars, pop style, screeching, dancing, etc.)! Can you show us a video or direct us to an article describing the sort of Charismatic worship that exemplifies your wishes? 🙂
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I figured that was the issue. No, that stuff aggravates me to no end, but my ideal just does not exist AFAIK. If I knew how to chant I would just do it in tongues and post that!

But seriously, I would prefer just a down-to-earth meeting. Get together, quietly pray tongues together for a bit, then maybe have a few folks get up and deliver a few messages in tongues or prophesying or give some testimonies about what they’ve experienced, and some time for the practice of other gifts like healing. Of course, I’d prefer there to be someone who can discern spirits so we don’t get carried away. Things like miracles are different, I wouldn’t show them off because they’re evangelistic. Or try to pull off exorcisms either :rolleyes: The gifts like wisdom, knowledge and faith are kind of left out, aside from people teaching or giving testimonies. Some manifestations are intended for other ends that maybe only a priest and such could utilize (reading hearts, etc.) Ultimately all the gifts should be used as ministerial means to an end and not indulged in, like a lot of the Corinthian-style tongues obsession.

I’ve experienced tongues and faith personally (I absolutely held on and insisted that a difficult and life changing situation that I got myself into would turn out in an incredibly unlikely way and right at the last minute it did.) But ultimately it seems like the most banged up of us are the ones who receive extraordinary graces. A lot of these things aren’t absolutely necessary for holiness for us as individuals, but are moreso oriented toward helping out others.
 
john_aurelius said:
Renewal has always had its place in the CC. Monasticism comes out of this idea as well. If one wants to have a Early Church perspective Tertullian (North Africa 2nd C) who was a lawyer and a bit of a Traditionalist (even back then) supported a Charismatic renewal movement called Montanism which spoke in tongues and prophisied.

I have no problem with either TLM or a Charismatic service/ prayer meeting. It is the word of God man can’t live without, not a particular type of liturgy (EF or Of &C.)
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isn’t montanism considered a heresy? :confused:

maybe it’s kind of complicated…

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montanism
 
Our priest once gave a talk about Charismaticism. He was very clear that the gift of tongues does genuinely exist, but that this gift should never be asked for or prayed for to have. I think he meant that if the gift is bestowed on a person naturally, that’s okay. I find it troubling that at some Charismatic Masses, the Holy Ghost is called upon at will. That’s just wrong, as it seems to sort of trivialize God somehow (even though I’ve nothing against Charismatics, per se, I’m sure they are well-intentioned).

I personally would not want this gift, but that’s just me. I have enough faith without it. I’ve experienced what I thought was a manisfestation of the Holy Ghost once about 10 months ago, at Mass, after praying ferverantly about a sibling of mine who was having serious problems. I then heard what sounded like a loud creek babbling at the back of the sanctuary, toward the back pews, a few seconds later, the same sound happened in the isle to my right. It kind of freaked me out, and it took awhile to process it, and I couldn’t focus very well on the Mass after that. Maybe the Holy Ghost was giving some kind of consolation in trying to say that my sibling would be alright, which did happen. But really, I’d rather not have an experience like that. Might have something to do with my dad’s side of the family being nutty Pentacostals (AoG), I dunno. I think it was St. Teresa of Avila who often experienced a loud sound of rushing water in her head, which she didn’t like because she couldn’t focus on other things very well because of it.
 
Denise1957 said:
Our priest once gave a talk about Charismaticism. He was very clear that the gift of tongues does genuinely exist, but that this gift should never be asked for or prayed for to have. I think he meant that if the gift is bestowed on a person naturally, that’s okay. I find it troubling that at some Charismatic Masses, the Holy Ghost is called upon at will. That’s just wrong, as it seems to sort of trivialize God somehow (even though I’ve nothing against Charismatics, per se, I’m sure they are well-intentioned).

I personally would not want this gift, but that’s just me. I have enough faith without it. I’ve experienced what I thought was a manisfestation of the Holy Ghost once about 10 months ago, at Mass, after praying ferverantly about a sibling of mine who was having serious problems. I then heard what sounded like a loud creek babbling at the back of the sanctuary, toward the back pews, a few seconds later, the same sound happened in the isle to my right. It kind of freaked me out, and it took awhile to process it, and I couldn’t focus very well on the Mass after that. Maybe the Holy Ghost was giving some kind of consolation in trying to say that my sibling would be alright, which did happen. But really, I’d rather not have an experience like that. Might have something to do with my dad’s side of the family being nutty Pentacostals (AoG), I dunno. I think it was St. Teresa of Avila who often experienced a loud sound of rushing water in her head, which she didn’t like because she couldn’t focus on other things very well because of it.
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I once heard three voices shout “NO!” at me when I was praying for something stupid. But anyway…
 
That which causes division among Catholics is evil, that which unites them is good.
 
ExLibris said:
I’m sorry if I have been unclear.

The degrading spectacle of an Altar Call that some Protestants and Pentecostals engage in is at issue.

To quote the Catechism:
Baptism alone is what gives us our sanctifying grace, removes our original sin, and allows us our Divine Life.

To suggest otherwise by way of replication of Pentecostals is to fall into heretical and alien doctrine.

So you wish to renew your Baptismal commitment to Jesus?

Fine. But it should be known the Church already has a venue for this on Holy Saturday; it’s called the Renewal of Baptismal Promises.
Click to expand...
Technically we renew our commitment to Jesus through several venues, namely through the Sacraments.

Calling on people to reclaim their Sacraments (or in the case of those who aren’t Catholic to receive the Lord Christ) isn’t a bad thing. It could be done at the Adoration chapel, talking with a Priest, praying with friends. People coming back to Jesus is never a bad thing. When I help run retreats and the kids have conversions or reversions, I (and others) take them towards the Sacraments.

Assuming that charismatic Catholics leave out the Sacraments is pretty foolish, and associating charismatic Catholics with a few bad apples isn’t the best idea either. Unless lower-case “t” traditionalists want to be lumped in a few groups 🙂
 
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