Traditionalist and Charismatic

[JaMc]

You mean that no one should accept Jesus in their life? No one should embrace the gifts given to them through Baptism & Confirmation? By accepting Jesus and committing to Him fully they once again accepts the gifts given to them through the Sacraments of Initiation?

I don’t see how this is clear at all, especially when charismatic folks greatly appreciate and celebrate the Sacraments.

Unless you wish to challenge my authenticity towards the Sacraments and the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Well, the pentacostal/evangelical Protestants have attempted to do away with most of the sacraments - all they have are baptism, and imitations of marriage and the Eucharist (no confession or annointing of the sick, they subsume confirmation within baptism, and, with no Episcopal lineage, really no Holy Orders either). As such, the “altar calls” are an attempt at a “substitute” for the graces granted through the sacraments.

Basically, the evangelicals “need” things like altar calls to (attempt to) reach the graces granted through the Sacraments. We have the actual sacraments, so they, really, have no place in Catholic worship. When it comes right down to it, it’s just a gimmick to “jazz things up” to make the Mass more “exciting.”

Note that I’m pretty much neutral on the whole Charismatic movement - I think it has its good points, but I also think that, in incorporating certain Protestant practices, like “altar calls”, which were meant to supplant, rather than complement, the Sacraments, there’s some cause for concern. I think, as long as there is a good, solid, (small “o”) orthodox Priest keeping an eye on it, it can be a good thing, but I can see how it could get out of hand as well.

 

[pataburd]

A convert from Pentecostalism, I still pray in tongues (privately), and thank God for the gift. After joining the Church, I considered myself “Truly Pentecostal”. In fact, when asked why I converted, I often answered “in order to become a better Pentecostal”.

However, my experience with the Charismatic movement in the Catholic Church–albeit not exhaustive–has, one the one hand, been correlated with departures from liturgical propriety, heterodox teaching, false syncretism and an overall “Protestant-leaning” tendency. These anomalies usually occur in “mixed” assemblies. Blessed John Paul II did put a halt to these types of abuses.

Besides, the “ecstatic” is also a facet of the my worship in the TLM, but experienced with more profundity and interiority, because of the depth and beauty of Catholic teaching.

 

[ClayPots47]

There isn’t one as far as I know.

The Charismatic movement is a very new movement from the 1960’s that was inspired by protestant Pentecostalism as such it has nothing to do with tradition and I don’t personally think it is compatible with Catholicism.

Dang! It’s amazing how many, typically Traditionalists, get this all wrong. The charisms belong to the Catholic Church, the Protestants got them from us, just like they got the bible from us. The renewal is not inspired by Pentecostalism, authentic Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church does not even borrow from Pentecostalism, The movement is a renewal of the charisms of the early church, which is why it is called Charismatic Renewal.

And what you personally think about it, is your problem. It is compatible with Catholicism, has had the endorsement and support of 3 popes: Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI. There are problems with Charismatic Renewal, just as there are problems with Traditionalists, typically due to pride-filled individuals who think they are correct, and everybody should agree with them. If it wasn’t compatible with Catholicism, it would not have had the backing of the Holy Father himself.

 

[ClayPots47]

The emotional ejaculations of Pentecostalism have no place in traditional Catholicism.

Altar Calls, practitioners fainting and speaking in tongues, women dancing up and down aisles, and music of modern motifs blaring should not be allowed in the house of God.

I’ve never seen Altar Calls, fainting, women dancing up and down aisles, and music of modern motifs blaring at a Charismatic prayer meeting, Charismatic Mass, Charismatic Rally or other diocesan event, in all my years living in the Archdiocese’ of Philadelphia and Baltimore. I have seen people praying in tongues, Resting in the Spirit, prophesying in tongues, interpreting the prophecy tongues, laying on of hands for healing prayer, singing both modern and traditional hymns and praying intercessory prayer. And all are part of authentic Charismatic worship, and fully endorsed and accepted by the Church.

Have you ever been to an actual Catholic Charismatic event and witnessed what you claim? Because I keep running into people in this forum, who have ideas of what they think it is, or have only witnessed Protestant Pentecostal or Protestant Charismatic (such as Assemblies of God). and think that it’s the same thing. It isn’t.

 

[TrueLight]

Dang! It’s amazing how many, typically Traditionalists, get this all wrong. The charisms belong to the Catholic Church, the Protestants got them from us, just like they got the bible from us. The renewal is not inspired by Pentecostalism, authentic Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church does not even borrow from Pentecostalism, The movement is a renewal of the charisms of the early church, which is why it is called Charismatic Renewal.

And what you personally think about it, is your problem. It is compatible with Catholicism, has had the endorsement and support of 3 popes: Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI. There are problems with Charismatic Renewal, just as there are problems with Traditionalists, typically due to pride-filled individuals who think they are correct, and everybody should agree with them. If it wasn’t compatible with Catholicism, it would not have had the backing of the Holy Father himself.

From Wikipedia (And yes, I know Wikipedia is less than infallible)

The Catholic Charismatic Renewal today
The Eucharist being elevated during a Catholic Charismatic Renewal healing service, in which the faithful not only pray for spiritual and physical healings, but also for miracles.
Praise and Worship during a CCR Healing Service.

As of 2003, the Catholic Charismatic Renewal exists in over 230 countries in the world, having touched over 119 million members [4]. Participants in the Renewal also cooperate with non-Catholic Christians and other Catholics in providing a common witness for evangelization, as encouraged by the Catholic Church.[5]

The Charismatic element of the Church is still as evident today as it was in the early days of Christianity. Some Catholic Charismatic communities conduct healing services, gospel power services, outreaches and evangelizations where the presence of the Holy Spirit is felt, and healings and miracles take place [6]. The mission of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is to educate believers into the totality of the declaration of the gospels. **This is done by a personal relationship with Jesus Christ; a one-to-one relationship with Jesus is seen as a possibility by the Charismatic. **He is encouraged to talk to Jesus directly and search for what The Lord is saying so that his life will be one with Him; to walk in the Fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5:22-23, this is what the Charismatic understands by giving his life to Jesus. Conscience is seen as an alternative voice of Jesus Christ.[7]

A one-to-one relationship with Jesus Christ? aka personal relationship with Jesus Christ, aka personal savior?

Sounds very Protestant to me.

In fact the whole movement sounds very Pentecostal. Which is fine. Half of my family is Pentecostal anyway.

 

[Melchior_1]

From Wikipedia (And yes, I know Wikipedia is less than infallible)

A one-to-one relationship with Jesus Christ? aka personal relationship with Jesus Christ, aka personal savior?

Sounds very Protestant to me.

In fact the whole movement sounds very Pentecostal. Which is fine. Half of my family is Pentecostal anyway.

Do you have a relationship with Jesus aka you pray to Him and go to Mass?

Do you pray to Him alone aka going to an Adoration chapel?

Did Christ die for you so you may have Eternal Life plus access to the Sacraments aka the Church?

Does that make you a Protestant?

The Bible is the Word of God and should be read daily. I dunno, sounds Protestant to me, liking the Bible so much.

Icons and Marian devotion are critical. Sounds very Orthodox to me.

Abraham and Moses were cool dudes. Sounds very Jewish to me.

 

[ExLibris]

I’ve never seen Altar Calls, fainting, women dancing up and down aisles, and music of modern motifs blaring at a Charismatic prayer meeting, Charismatic Mass, Charismatic Rally or other diocesan event, in all my years living in the Archdiocese’ of Philadelphia and Baltimore. I have seen people praying in tongues, Resting in the Spirit, prophesying in tongues, interpreting the prophecy tongues, laying on of hands for healing prayer, singing both modern and traditional hymns and praying intercessory prayer. And all are part of authentic Charismatic worship, and fully endorsed and accepted by the Church.

Have you ever been to an actual Catholic Charismatic event and witnessed what you claim? Because I keep running into people in this forum, who have ideas of what they think it is, or have only witnessed Protestant Pentecostal or Protestant Charismatic (such as Assemblies of God). and think that it’s the same thing. It isn’t.

I have been a Catechist at my parish for 2 years. In these two years, I have been to five different Charismatic “Catholic” events.

Stuenbenville’s Transformational Teen Youth Conference twice, Southern California’s Renewal, and Western Washington’s Renewal.

Stuenbenville was by far the greatest offender.

 

[ClayPots47]

corsair:

I agree with Brendan and ExLibris on this issue.

Iotaunum:

That makes two of us.

'm number three. I would rather live a Catholic lifestyle outside of the Mass, not a lifestyle that derived from Pentacostal Protestantism. Where’s our Catholic identity in that?

I’m re-posting this from a previous thread on the subject. Obviously there are people still in need of being educated on Catholic Charismatics. Because you are all wrong on this. This was a reply to several who insisted that the charisms should stay with the Pentecostals/Protestants, as it was neither Catholic nor orthodox.

Really? A lot of prominent people in the Catholic Church, Popes included, would strongly disagree with your statement. The Charismatic gifts belong to the Catholic Church, it was after all, in the Catholic Church that they were first experienced, as stated in Scripture. The current Renewal, while manifesting itself after the Protestants experiencing Pentecostalism/Charismatic worship, is really a separate movement. Because of the timing, many incorrectly assume it came from Protestants, it is really a part of the greater renewal of the Church, that John XXlll envisioned when he literally fling open the Windows and prayed for the Holy Spirit to breath new life into the Church. The timing has nothing to do with the fact that Protestants had Pentecostal/Charismatic churches, and everything to do with Vatican ll. Unlike Protestant Pentecostals/Charismatics, it is not replacing traditional forms of Catholic worship,; but restoring the experience of the early Church. This experience was still manifested throughout Church history, by individuals who expressed the charisms, including many Saints.The Protestant got it, like their bible, from the Catholics. The Protestants style of Charismatic/Pentecostal worship also is fraught with many errors and extreme styles of worship. Some of that has crept into Catholic Charismatic circles, which is why the Church from Popes to Bishops to Priests, have to reign in the emotionalism and false charisms and keep the Movement in-line with Catholic Teaching.

Just because there isn’t knowledge of modern Saints using glossolalia or Resting in the Spirit (BTW, Charismatics do not slay others in the Spirit, that is a Protestant phenomena), doesn’t mean it isn’t the work of the Holy Spirit. Saints throughout history have exhibited all manner of charisma.

Saints had the gift of Speaking in Tongues

Tongues and Resting in the Spirit are just two of many charisms; discernment of the spirits, reading of hearts, healing, miracles. Padre Pio was well-known for exhibiting all kings of extraordinary unusual charisms. Resting in the Spirit and Tongues are not as extraordinary as charisms, and are seen among Charismatics that don’t posess the holiness of Padre Pio; it would make sense that they were not associated with Padre Pio, but the extraordinary unusual ones were.

A CHARISMATIC IN THE CHURCH: PADRE PIO

All of the recent Popes have spoken favorably regarding Charismatic Renewal in the catholic Church

What is the Charismatic Renewal?

Pope Paul lV’s Adresses to the Catholic Charismatic Renewal

Pope John Paul ll to Catholic Charismatics

Pontiff (Benedict XVl Calls Movements Gifts to the Church

(more follows)

 

[ClayPots47]

(remainder of my post)

“In 1980, Pope John Paul II personally selected a charismatic, Fr. Raniero Cantalamessa, OFM Cap, to be the preacher to the papal household. He served so well that Pope Benedict XVI asked him to continue to the present day. In 2007, Fr. Cantalamessa was asked in an interview, “Has the charismatic encounter with the Holy Spirit affected your own ministry?” And he replied, “I experienced this in my priestly life, and so I am fully convinced. It makes everything new — prayer, preaching, liturgy — everything is enkindled by the Holy Spirit.”” (arlingtonrenewal.org/worldwide-renewal)

Father Cantalamessa on Charismatic Renewal

Mother Angelica, according to biographer Raymond Arroyo, was herself involved in the Charismatic Renewal; including Praying in Tongues and Resting (sleeping) in the Spirit. “Slain in the Spirit” is a Protestant term, typically used by Pentecostals, it is not the correct term among Catholic Charismatics. And that is what they are, Catholic Charismatics, not Charismatic Catholics.

Mother Angelica-Catholic Charismatic

Finally, no one is forcing you to accept or be part of the Charismatic Renewal. You do not have to pray in Tongues or rest in the Spirit or accept any of the charisms in your life. They are not necessary for your salvation. The Church has a wide range of spiritualities and movements, you can associate will any or none. What appeals to you, may not appeal to anyone else. The Charismatic Renewal is an accepted movement in the Catholic Church, with the full support of Pope and most bishops.

The Charismatic Renewal is very much a work of the Holy Spirit, and it is quite Catholic and Orthodox as well. Like any movement, because humans are involved, it is subject to abuses and unorthodoxy. And the evil one can distort it and create confusion just as he does any where else. True charisms are subject to obedience to the Church. Catholics who have taken part in a Life in the Spirit seminar learn about the importance of discerning the spirits. That’s because charisms can be false and come from the human or evil spirit, as well as the Holy Spirit. A priest can test them simply by requiring the person to cease manifesting them. If they come from God, the person would immediately obey the priest. I witnessed this myself, while in a pilgrimage. While doing outdoor Stations of the Cross, a woman in our party kept “Resting in the Spiirit” at practically every station, Worse, she was quite dramatic about it. True Resting in the Spirit should be a quiet yielding to the Spirit, in which one either becomes still while seated, or slips to the floor with the aid of “catchers” if standing. It shouldn’t be a sudden plop, or accompanied by jerking or other abnormal bodily movements. Nor should their be grunting, sighing or other utterances. One of the two Priest who accompanied our group to provide spiritual assistance, was getting a bit tired of all of the disruptive drama. He finally stopped the group, went or to the drama queen, and commanded that she stop her sighs and gyrations, and get up immediately. She didn’t. He asked if anybody knew the woman, and if they would volunteer to stay with her. He then told the group to move on and left the woman behind.

 

[ExLibris]

Technically we renew our commitment to Jesus through several venues, namely through the Sacraments.

Calling on people to reclaim their Sacraments (or in the case of those who aren’t Catholic to receive the Lord Christ) isn’t a bad thing. It could be done at the Adoration chapel, talking with a Priest, praying with friends. People coming back to Jesus is never a bad thing. When I help run retreats and the kids have conversions or reversions, I (and others) take them towards the Sacraments.

Assuming that charismatic Catholics leave out the Sacraments is pretty foolish, and associating charismatic Catholics with a few bad apples isn’t the best idea either. Unless lower-case “t” traditionalists want to be lumped in a few groups

I am not assuming that the Charismatic Catholics leave out the Sacraments. I know they do.

Reconciliation does not involve being washed of sinfulness by simply shouting, “I am a sinner!” and having some non-ordained (Holy Orders) person absolve you.

Baptism cannot be replaced by an Altar Call.

These messages, while implicit, put the idea that emotions and feelings trump the infallible doctrine of our church.

 

[lcg101]

These messages, while implicit, put the idea that emotions and feelings trump the infallible doctrine of our church.

This is my biggest issue with Charismatic worshiping, inside or outside of the Church. It puts feelings at the center of the worship rather than Who we are actually worshiping. - I really couldn’t have said it better. Thanks ExLibris.

 

[ClayPots47]

From Wikipedia (And yes, I know Wikipedia is less than infallible)

A one-to-one relationship with Jesus Christ? aka personal relationship with Jesus Christ, aka personal savior?

Sounds very Protestant to me.

In fact the whole movement sounds very Pentecostal. Which is fine. Half of my family is Pentecostal anyway.

There is nothing in Catholic teaching against having a personal relationship with Jesus. Many saints had personal relationships with Jesus. The Wikipedia article didn’t mention the personal savior, OSAS stuff, Catholic Charismatics don’t believe that. Rather than relying on Wikipedia, read the links from the popes in my reposts from another thread. Read about Mother Angelica and Fr. Raniero Cantalamessa, OFM Cap. None of the above would endorse/support a movement that is protestant.

 

[Melchior_1]

I am not assuming that the Charismatic Catholics leave out the Sacraments. I know they do.

Reconciliation does not involve being washed of sinfulness by simply shouting, “I am a sinner!” and having some non-ordained (Holy Orders) person absolve you.

Baptism cannot be replaced by an Altar Call.

These messages, while implicit, put the idea that emotions and feelings trump the infallible doctrine of our church.

“I’m not assuming that traditional Catholics are disobedient to the Pope and are borderline schismatic, I know they are”.

Pretty easy to generalize, eh?

No one is saying what you’re saying. I reverted back to Catholicism at Steubinville thanks to the Eucharist and Reconciliation. I know the Sacraments are treated as the center of the Faith in the charismatic renewal, as they should be. And as a charismatic Catholic that is what I teach. Because you’re not the only Catechist who roams this sub-section of the board (I’ve been doing it for three or four years now, myself).

 

[ExLibris]

If a person is really full of the Holy Ghost he should possess the Seven Gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Does a person rolling around on the floor, speaking in tongues, and crying really exemplify wisdom, fortitude, understanding, counsel, knowledge, piety, and fear of the Lord?

I know what conclusion I draw, but I obviously can’t speak for everyone.

 

[Melchior_1]

If a person is really full of the Holy Ghost he should possess the Seven Gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Does a person rolling around on the floor, speaking in tongues, and crying really exemplify wisdom, fortitude, understanding, counsel, knowledge, piety, and fear of the Lord?

I know what conclusion I draw, but I obviously can’t speak for everyone.

What about the gifts that St. Paul spoke of?

 

[Brendan_McCabe]

Padre Pio died in 1946 the catholic charismatic movement did not even start until 1967, he was not a charismatic, claiming him as such is dishonest.

Mother Angelica in her biography tells us she rejected the charismatic movement because she realized it did not lead people to Christ, pretending that she is still a charismatic is again dishonest.

 

[Melchior_1]

Padre Pio died in 1946 the catholic charismatic movement did not even start until 1967, he was not a charismatic, claiming him as such is dishonest.

Saying something like that is like saying “the word transubstantiation wasn’t used until such and such a date, therefore it is a Catholic invention!”

 

[ClayPots47]

I have been a Catechist at my parish for 2 years. In these two years, I have been to five different Charismatic “Catholic” events.

Stuenbenville’s Transformational Teen Youth Conference twice, Southern California’s Renewal, and Western Washington’s Renewal.

Stuenbenville was by far the greatest offender.

That is surprising, as Stuenbenville is considered to be a bastion of orthodoxy. There are problems in the Renewal, just like there are problems among Traditionalists (Sedevacantists for example). If the bishops are properly overseeing the activities of Charismatics, problems can be reigned in. But it is wrong to wholesale sweep the Charismatic Renewal under the rug, based on abuses and problems within some aspects of the Renewal. Just like it would be wrong to do the same to Traditionalists. My experience of Charismatics has been that they are orthodox and traditional Catholics who are very involved in their parishes. The two diocese’ I lived in had oversight from the top, to keep things from getting out-of-hand. I used to know a number of seminarians from Charles Borromeo and Mt Saint Mary’s, many were Charismatics; they were also the most orthodox and traditional young men I ever met. The Charismatic Renewal has fostered vocations and helped many to grow in their faith, which is why three popes spoke positively regarding it.

 

[ExLibris]

What about the gifts that St. Paul spoke of?

I Corinthians 13:8-12

8 Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing.

9 For we know partially and we prophesy partially,

10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.

11
When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things.

12
At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.

So, speaking in tongues and the accompanying prophecies were almost considered childish in a sense. Tongues was rendered useless with perfected revelation in the New Testament.

 

[Brendan_McCabe]

Saying something like that is like saying “the word transubstantiation wasn’t used until such and such a date, therefore it is a Catholic invention!”

No it really is nothing like that at all, the charismatic movement is a group founded at a certain time, it is not possible for someone to be a member of a movement that did not even exist when they lived.

Perhaps you would like to share with us what makes you think Padre Pio was a member of a movement that did not even exist while he was alive, perhaps you think all saints were charismatic? All miracle workers? Which would just go to show the arrogance of the charismatic movement.