Traditionalist and Charismatic

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Read what happened to Peter in the Acts Of The Apostles. People were amazed that these
rough men had become powerful and eloquent mystics. Those who heard them, heard them speaking in the listener’s language

I don’t hear of that happening at Charismatic services. Babbeling bits of a foreign language (or just babbling) is not the same. You can get these effects at pagan ceremonies; healings, swooning, ecstacies.

I’m trying to imagine the Apostles doing that sort of stuff.
 
I went to a mass offered by someone i could only guess was charismatic. He “freed” us from all sorts of diseases, and even curses and hexes. Creepy.

Sure people can have extraordinary gifts like Padre Pio or Saint Teresa, but I can’t remember those people demanding those gifts as though they were theirs by right.

As many people have pointed out, speaking in tongues doesn’t mean babbling incomprehensibly, it means speaking in such a way so that everyone, regardless of whether they know your language or not, can understand you.
 
Read what happened to Peter in the Acts Of The Apostles. People were amazed that these
rough men had become powerful and eloquent mystics. Those who heard them, heard them speaking in the listener’s language

I don’t hear of that happening at Charismatic services. Babbeling bits of a foreign language (or just babbling) is not the same. You can get these effects at pagan ceremonies; healings, swooning, ecstacies.

I’m trying to imagine the Apostles doing that sort of stuff.
You are confusing the gift of tongues with the prayer language of tongues. The first is in a known human language and the second is between God and the Christian praying.

The black arts often mimic Christian ways such as the black mass. This does not invalidate the Christian practice. The difference is who you are worshipping.

So please do not condemn something you know so little about.
 
I went to a mass offered by someone i could only guess was charismatic. He “freed” us from all sorts of diseases, and even curses and hexes. Creepy.

Sure people can have extraordinary gifts like Padre Pio or Saint Teresa, but I can’t remember those people demanding those gifts as though they were theirs by right.

As many people have pointed out, speaking in tongues doesn’t mean babbling incomprehensibly, it means speaking in such a way so that everyone, regardless of whether they know your language or not, can understand you.
Do you also think it creepy that Scripture records that Jesus freed us from diseases and the oppresion of the devil?

We are encouraged in Scripture to pray for the gifts of the Holy Spirit. The gifts are part of our inheritance according to Scripture. They are ours by right but according to the will of the Holy Spirit.

As many Charismatics have pointed out that there are two types of tongues, the gift of tongues and the tongue prayer language. One is understood by men and the other by God.
 
… Because every Charismatic Mass I have attended is the OF according to the GIRM. The only thing that makes it ‘Charismatic’ is the fact that there are typically three opportunities to pray in tongues, and make vocal ejaculations, during the Mass. Typically after the opening hymn, but before the sing-of-the-cross, and at the elevation of the Host and Chalice after Consecration.
My emphasis.

You know, I think this is a marvellous opportunity for the Devil to mock God. A hullaballoo at key points of the Mass. Incredible.

Extraordinarily indulgent of the congregation, at the very least.
 
To me the charismatic movement has become a part of my spirituality, on the one hand, and traditionalism, on the other hand, is a part of my beliefs, coming as it does from Catholic doctrine. In fact I am a fan of “The Wanderer.” The two can be different matters.

People have different spiritualities. Women and men for example tend to have different spiritualities, and there are the different spiritualities of religious orders, such as Carmelite and Franciscan. So if someone isn’t turned on to the charismatic prayer, why not? I would go bonkers if I tried to live like a hermet, for example, though this is an important form of Catholic religious life going back to the Desert Fathers.

So of course some people would prefer not to attend a charismatic mass. That is rightly up to them. Some people though may not understand what that means. I have never seen Catholic charismatics dancing in the aisles or an altar call at mass (or on any other occasion.) That is a part of Pentecostal spirituality, which differs in some fundamanetal ways from Catholic spirituality. However, speaking in tongues, for example, so it has turned out since the Catholic charismatic movement began in the 1960s, is a legitimate practice in the Church, or the Popes would have spoken up about it, instead of issuing general statements of acceptance and support of the charismatic movement in the Catholic Church without reference to it, since Pope Paul VI in the 1960s up to Pope Benedict.

In regards to a preceding post, at the charismatic masses I have attended, the people were silent during the consecration and elevation of the host. If during any mass, people were somehow in actuality drawing attention to themselves then instead of to Christ, I would be very distraught.
 
There are opportunities for abuse in any form of worship. Ultra-traditionalists to the point of rejecting recent popes have proved this. Some Catholic Charismatic masses can have a tendency to steer some toward a more pentacostal type of worship away from the accepted Catholic way. In either case we as Catholics need to be faithful to the magisterium, Catholic tradition found through teachings of the Church fathers, the Deposit of Faith and scripture. If done in line within those guidelines I hardly see how a faithful seeking of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit in prayer meetings outside the Mass could do anything but make one a better Catholic and have more reverence toward the Catholic faith. I don’t know why we can’t avail ourselves to these gifts and not remain a faithful practicing Catholic. Certainly make sure we are fully in lines with the teachings of the Church.
 
Padre Pio died in 1946 the catholic charismatic movement did not even start until 1967, he was not a charismatic, claiming him as such is dishonest.

Mother Angelica in her biography tells us she rejected the charismatic movement because she realized it did not lead people to Christ, pretending that she is still a charismatic is again dishonest.
St. Pio died in 1968.
 
Read what happened to Peter in the Acts Of The Apostles. People were amazed that these rough men had become powerful and eloquent mystics. Those who heard them, heard them speaking in the listener’s language

I don’t hear of that happening at Charismatic services. Babbeling bits of a foreign language (or just babbling) is not the same. You can get these effects at pagan ceremonies; healings, swooning, ecstacies.

I’m trying to imagine the Apostles doing that sort of stuff.
My mom’s prayer/worship language was a dialect of Japanese. This is all the more poignant because she was a filipina who had undergone the brutality of Japanese occupation in her own lifetime. During worship, some people from Japan who were in attendance noted that she was praising God in their native tongue. This was “Babel in reverse”. : )
 
Why are these gifts charismatic gifts becoming more prevalent now? Why is the movement picking up steam?

The same reason why the Extraordinary Form is becoming more prevalent; we need BOTH to fight the Evil one, whose attacks are becoming more frequent than ever.

Consider when the Charismatic Renewal started and the SSPX started making waves, what happened (sexual revolution and sex abuse scandals). And like always, Satan steps in and tries to make a mockery of things that are holy (the SSPX debacle and crazies who take charismatic behaivour too far).

Yet even when we are down to nothing, God is up to something. From that we have two Societies of Apostolic Life (The FSSP and the Companions of the Cross) who are taking up the efforts in the fight against the Devil. We have mainstream orders now embracing one or both of these movements.

There are not such thing as coincidences, there’s a reason both movements are going strong. Although the methods are different, the goal is the same; save souls through the Sacraments.
I totally agree. The Church has been blessed with a lot of movements, and the faithful have aligned themselves with one or more. And the Evil One is behind the prideful attitudes that have shown up among these movements, in order to create confusion and division. The Church has wisely put checks and balances in place, to keep the various movements strong, and to prevent heresy and other problems from creeping in. When people in one movement, denigrate those in another, they are wounding the Body of Christ, which is the Church. We should be praying that these movements are strengthened in their fidelity to the Church, and continue to bring people to salvation through a deep sacramental life.
 
You are confusing the gift of tongues with the prayer language of tongues. The first is in a known human language and the second is between God and the Christian praying.

The black arts often mimic Christian ways such as the black mass. This does not invalidate the Christian practice. The difference is who you are worshipping.

So please do not condemn something you know so little about.
👍👍👍

To add, don’t condemn a movement that clearly has had the support of three popes. Amazing how none of you detractors have anything to say regarding the links I posted with the words of the popes! The detractors seem hung on the whole “tongues” thing, and despite repeated explanations, on various threads on this forum, and a lack of understanding what is in their own bible,; continue to confuse the apostolic tongues and prayer tongues. Scroll back a bit, and there is my post, with all of the relevant scriptures passages that differentiate apostolic tongues and prayer tongues. II don’t know about you, gtrenewed, but I haven’t ever seen pagan ceremonies where people pray in tongues, but then again, I don’t attend pagan ceremonies! Well said, what you posted above.
 
My emphasis.

You know, I think this is a marvellous opportunity for the Devil to mock God. A hullaballoo at key points of the Mass. Incredible.

Extraordinarily indulgent of the congregation, at the very least.
Yeah…right… Paul VI, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI would fully endorse and allow this so the devil can mock God? It seems you give too much power to the devil, and totally ignore the working of the Holy Spirit. Scroll back and read the post I made with the 4 links to the actual words of the popes in support of this movement. John Paul and Benedict even have a charismatic priest as the official Papal Household Preacher. I attended an event with a Mass celebrated by him, and yes, we prayed in tongues, as did he. Fr Cantalamessa is an amazing Capuchin Franciscan priest. I’m sure that Cardinals Krol and Bevilacqua wouldn’t have supported this in Philadelphia, and preside at yearly events, and in the case of Cardinal Krol, encourage the congregants to pray in tongues; if they ever thought that would allow the devil to mock God. If allowing the congregants to pray in tongues is “indulging” them, at a specific charismatic event (not a regular OF Mass), then so is allowing the EF/TLM for Traditionalists who could simply go to the OF Mass, or allowing them to kneel to receive the Eucharist, when the norm is to stand. As I told a previous poster, what you think does not matter, because three popes have already spoken and given their full support to this movement, your opinion notwithstanding.
 
In regards to a preceding post, at the charismatic masses I have attended, the people were silent during the consecration and elevation of the host. If during any mass, people were somehow in actuality drawing attention to themselves then instead of to Christ, I would be very distraught.
This depends on the presider, and on what the charismatics sponsoring the Mass planned with the presiding priest ahead of time. And it wasn’t during the consecration that tongues were prayed, it was immediately after, as the priest elevated the host and then the chalice. Charismatic events with a Mass in the Philadelphia and Baltimore diocese’, from my personal experience, have always had praying of tongues at the three points of the liturgy mentioned in an earlier post. But that may not be the practice elsewhere. The reason for at the elevation, following the prayers of consecration, is that time is a traditional time for ejaculatory prayer, I have seen people at Mass utter in a whisper or soft voice, “My Lord, and My God” while striking their breast. Even Papal Household Preacher, Fr Cantalamessa, encouraged praying of tongues at that point, he prayed along with us, at the one Mass and event where he was the guest speaker. Ultimately, the decision is that of the presiding priest. And Charismatics should abide by that.
 
There are opportunities for abuse in any form of worship. Ultra-traditionalists to the point of rejecting recent popes have proved this. Some Catholic Charismatic masses can have a tendency to steer some toward a more pentacostal type of worship away from the accepted Catholic way. In either case we as Catholics need to be faithful to the magisterium, Catholic tradition found through teachings of the Church fathers, the Deposit of Faith and scripture. If done in line within those guidelines I hardly see how a faithful seeking of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit in prayer meetings outside the Mass could do anything but make one a better Catholic and have more reverence toward the Catholic faith. I don’t know why we can’t avail ourselves to these gifts and not remain a faithful practicing Catholic. Certainly make sure we are fully in lines with the teachings of the Church.
Well said! 👍
 
CCC 800 Charisms are to be accepted with gratitude by the person who receives them and by all members of the Church as well

It is not simply “my” gift of the Holy Spirit but “our” gifts. :cool:

Gloria Patri, et Filio, et Spiritui Sanct, sicut erat in principio, et nunc, et semper, et in saecula saculorum…:signofcross:
 
I scrolled back to have a look at the links mentioned. None of them specifically endorse the practices which worry traditionalists and the articles are on Charismatic websites, as far as I can work out.

So a preacher associated with the Pope is a Charismatic? This is hardly a ringing endorsement of so popular a movement.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charismatic_Movement
It started with Protestantism and I think it’s just part of the modern fad for self-expression in our worship. We must be busy doing things, otherwise we’re not we’re not getting the full value. Or something.
 
Traditionalist seem to think that Charismatics are always speaking in tongues, this simply isn’t true.

There are points in the sevice or prayer meeting where we are invited to speak in tongues but that isn’t the entire time.

I haven’t read any posts that would convince me that tongues are not from the Holy Spirit, is there any reason why I shouldn’t seek them? After all, the Apostle Paul encouraged the Corinthians to seek spiritual gifts, tongues and prophecy.

Simply not recognising the difference between the different types of tongues only demonstrates the ignorance of the opposition.

Maybe they just don’t like anything and thats why they’re traditionalists:D
 
I really don’t think these two should be opposed to each other, and I think it’s kind of ridiculous that they are. I think I could be counted as both a “traddie” (traditionalist) and a “charismatic”. I go to a “traditional parish” (the people in my parish that I’ve talked to all have some opposition to the Charismatic Renewal, unfortunately) but I also am an advocate of the Charismatic Renewal. As if tradition in the liturgy, and the charismatic dimension of the faith, were matters simply of opinion… There shouldn’t be this dichotomy between “traditional Catholicism” on the one hand, and charismatic spirituality on the other.

If you read 1 Corinthians, which in Chapters 12 to about 14 talks specifically about the charismatic gifts, it’s especially a discussion on the liturgy. In other parts of the letter it gives guidelines for the liturgical celebration (i.e. “the breaking of the bread” - the Eucharist). The charismatic dimension of the faith, which was hailed by Bl. John Paul the Great as co-essential with the institutional dimension to the very nature of the Church, should have its presence in the liturgy. This essentially means that we need to really be adoring God at Mass in the power of the Holy Spirit. It’s supposed to be that when someone walks into our parish, they exclaim as Paul said, that “God is really among you!”. It should be very obvious that the Holy Spirit is active and present in our liturgies. On the other hand, many charismatics have abused the liturgy. The “charismatic Mass” is often associated with liturgical abuse, or with improper liturgical music. Really, it’s very simple - do the black, say the red. Just follow the basic guidelines of the Church on the liturgy. Many traditionalists associate the charismatic dimension with guitar music, emotional liturgies, and waving and clapping. Some charismatics perhaps focus too much on the charismatic dimension and not enough on the institutional.

There is a conflict here that shouldn’t be here. I think many traditionalists simply don’t like change and have this mistaken notion that things were great before Vatican II. I think many traditionalists are indeed very Pharisaical. I think many traditionalists simply keep to tradition for the sake of keeping tradition. This is stupid.

If people would actually implement the changes made at Vatican II, I think much of this conflict would be solved.
The Charismatic movement is a very new movement from the 1960’s that was inspired by protestant Pentecostalism as such it has nothing to do with tradition and I don’t personally think it is compatible with Catholicism.
The charismatic movement is I suppose new. The charismatic dimension of the faith is not - it was with us from the beginning. Read Acts. Though the emphasis on the charismatic dimension certainly was lacking at times in the Church, the charisms themselves never ceased. To claim that it is not compatible with Catholicism is ridiculous. Read Corinthians 12. St. Thomas Aquinas has a whole book on the charisms. Read the documents of the Second Vatican Council. The charismatic movement itself is the answer to the Bl. John XXIII’s prayer for the Holy Spirit to “renew in your Church your miracles as of a second Pentecost”. Paul VI, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI have all approved of this movement. Paul VI called it an important aspect of the Renewal of the entire Church, a chance for the Church and the world. John Paul II in particular has affirmed the charismatic dimension of the faith co-essential to the very nature of the church, and claimed that he was always part of this renewal in the Spirit. He also prayed in tongues regularly. Pope Benedict has had much to say about it as Cardinal Ratzinger, even asking priests not to let it pass them by. He has also said on different occasions that he wishes to invite all the faithful to experience the joys of being baptized in the Holy Spirit.

The Pentecostal movement itself was born out of the prayers of Pope Leo XIII. He had asked for a novena to be said to the Holy Spirit, in preparation for the 20th century. The day after this novena was completed, the Pentecostal movement was born in Topeka, Kansas. It’s ironic to note that a common criticism of the Pentecostals by other Protestants was that they were “too Catholic”. However, you cannot deny the incredibly fast growth of Pentecostalism, and how widespread it has become, and how many individuals have had an encounter with God through it - despite the fact that it is Protestant. The Charismatic movement, among Protestants, Catholics and even Orthodox is the fastest growing movement in the history of Christendom. In less than fifty years, about 2 billion Catholics would identify themselves as charismatic.

In any case… people, just do what the Church says.
 
I scrolled back to have a look at the links mentioned. None of them specifically endorse the practices which worry traditionalists and the articles are on Charismatic websites, as far as I can work out.

So a preacher associated with the Pope is a Charismatic? This is hardly a ringing endorsement of so popular a movement.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charismatic_Movement
It started with Protestantism and I think it’s just part of the modern fad for self-expression in our worship. We must be busy doing things, otherwise we’re not we’re not getting the full value. Or something.
Well that should end the discussion if wikipedia says it it must be true :rolleyes:

You continue to propagate incorrect information. You keep denying Catholic scripture, and Catholic history. The Charismatic movement has been endorsed by many bishops and various popes.

Scripture records the very beginning of the church which was taught by the Apostle’s and through prophets. Prophecy came in known tongues and unknown tongues interpreted for the congregation. As doctrine became more universal through the various councils the role of prophets decreased. Still the gifts were being given by the Holy Spirit throughout the ages to anyone who sought them.

Inspired by the prayer of Pope John for an outpouring of the Holy Spirit in our times for renewal, a group of students at Duquesne University sought to be renewed. Their prayer was answered by God. Just like in scripture when people received the Holy Spirit they spoke in other tongues and praised God extemporaneously. Catholic Charismatic Renewal is Catholic.

Some Protestants worship Jesus as Saviour. Because some Protestants also receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, it does not make it Protestant when you consider it was found in the first church. We relate directly to the first church through apostolic succession, the mass, and sacraments. The first church did not speak Latin in their worship but they did exercise the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

As a Catholic and Charismatic, I will follow my Bishop and the Pope in whatever form of the mass they choose as valid. The expression of the gifts of the Holy Spirit happen in my everyday life. That is because they are given for man’s benefit in the life of the church. Still, I quietly pray in tongues during mass at various times.

Instead of worrying, pray for those you are worrying over. Just remember not to pray your will but the Lord’s will. Not sure of the Lord’s will? That is one benefit of praying in tongues according to scripture. Since the Spirit is praying through the believer it is always the Lord’s will.
 
youtube.com/watch?v=VZwFzj1IkzI

Yes, yes. This is Catholic.

Emotional ejaculations. Ridiculous pomp and circumstance. Infernal noise of Hell. The non-ordained “testifying.” The slapping of hands and shouting.

I, for one, cannot reconcile this with our most perfect doctrine.

Pat Buchanan said it the best:
“The Church is in crisis today not because it failed to adjust its teaching and practices to the sexual revolution, but because it tried both to be true to its teachings and to keep in step with an immoral age, which is an impossibility. The way for the Church to restore its lost moral authority is to retrace its steps.”
 
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