I agree. I am sure that the Holy Father’s would cringe at the abuses that run rampant in places.
What would be the qualifications of such a person?
You know, I decided to do just that! I think if the Church can get back to her own roots in the area of the mystical and charismatic, we will not need to be concerned about "movements’.
I think that a valid point has been made in this area, though. Those who level this accusation toward the Charismatic experience often have a vested interest in avoiding emotions. Emotions are not as subject to control as the other parts of ourselves involved in spiritual practice. When one allows oneself to experience emotions, results may occur that are uncomfortable and unwanted (such as crying or laughing). If one remains closed off against environments and practices where this can happen, on can retain a restraint upon their emotions.
I’m not a Traditional Catholic but i dont agree with the Charismatic movement.
I agree. Incorporating one’s emotions into worship should not equal emotional leadership.
No it does not.
Perhaps you can explain why that is?
I hope not!
I am not sure what “type” you are referring to. People raising their hands when they sing and pray?
No. We have had very holy and dedicated Popes for a century now. They are not inclined to avarice and secular power. They do not compromise the Truth.
The purpose of the Charismatic gifts is to serve the Body. Every baptized Christian is given gifts that are intended for the use and service of others. The Charismatic renewal helps people to unwrap them, and put them to use. Pentecost belongs to the Catholic Church.
Any time a person steps out and purposes to serve God, they take some risk. That is why we need pastors and teachers to guide us.
Because the charisms are part of the Apostolic faith that has been passed down to us. Witchcraft is not.
It is part of the ordinary Magesterium. Do you think the Holy Scriptures are infallible? Why do you not trust what they say?
Reiki is not part of the once for all Divine Deposit of faith committed to the Church. The baptism of the HS is.
There was no conflict for the early Church either, except when abuses occurred, such as is written about in Corinthians. But even in the midst of what sounds very much like the modern chaos of abuses of the gifts, St. Paul still encouraged them to “earnestly desire the best gifts” and to use them - properly.About 3 years ago, I went with a group of students from my University Catholic Chaplaincy on the FSSP organized Paris-Chartres pilgrimage. Most of the other students who went were involved in the Charismatic Renewal and saw no conflict between reverence for Tradition and the Latin Mass and their charismatic prayer life.
That happens to me sometimes. If you are in Explorer, you can use the back button in the browser window and reclaim your post. You can also write in notepad then cut and paste.
It might. What are you looking at? I could not access any of the links. Can you describe what is causing you concern? All I could see was people lifting up their hands. Is that a problem?
By what authority do you make this assessment?
How do you “test” from a photograph?
I agree. What do you see that gives you problems/doubts?
I am sorry that I could not get this to play on my machine. Can you help? What are the warning signs?
I wish I had one! Poor connectivity.
Never heard of him. Was he presiding over a Mass that contained liturgical abuses? Even if he was, I am not sure I could judge the man for making this mistake.
One should always be concerned about being led astray, whether by false teachers, liturgical abuse, excessive emotionality, etc. None of these dangers invalidates healthy involvement of emotions in worship, true teachers, and proper liturgy.
How do you make such a determination?
The gifts of God can be abused.
I don’t think so. We know them by their fruits. When you hear shrieking, barking, and other cacophany you can be certain it is not coming from God.
Do you think this is a wrong use of a Catholic Church?
There are legitimate persons involved in legitimate renewal of the Holy Spirit to the Church. Those who are out of order do not negate those who are in order.
What is creepy?
Well said. I agree that the reason that popes have given approval is that they likely do not want schism.If you do any research online about the Charismatic movement and how it began it is tied in with protestantism. The man who began the Mormon Church could pray over people and have them fall over just like the slaying in the spirit that goes on at Stuebenville and other charasmatic services. The Holy Spirit simply doesn’t work this way and there’s no way to definitely attribute this to the Holy Spirit. I think that the only reason that three popes have given their approval to this movement is because of it’s size. It would a real problem to have all of these Catholics declared schismatic. It’s always best to stay away from this stuff.
regarding it.You are missing the point, music2. We are trying to get you to see that your line of reasoning is flawed.
Do you honestly believe that the Holy Father would allow and encourage heresy and devilishness to prevent schism? There is nothing that causes schism more! I can’t believe you would think that. Tell me I am misunderstanding.
Perhaps it might be more accurate to say that the work of the Holy Spirit to renew the Church should not be condemned because of the abuses present in the “movement”. The Holy Spirit works in the lives of individuals, and the Church is here to support and nourish that work. This is not, as has been rightly noted, dependent upon any “movement”.
It sounds like you don’t believe the testimony of the Scriptures about how the Holy Spirit manifests Himself in the Church. To say that the gifts of the Holy Spirit come from man is a kind of blasphemy, is it not?
Nothing can be further from the case. A counterfeit does not invalidate the genuine.
Of course! this is the main thing that is lacking in Protestant circles. Many ecclesial communities have no authorative structure, so abuses will run rampant.
I am confused what is meant by “movement” in this thread. The Church officially recognizes that the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit are valid and should be encouraged. The offices of the Renewal, the staff, and the missions of them are all approved. This was not done to prevent schism.
Meanwhile, the EF of the Roman Rite does enjoy official recognition, thanks be to God. And our dear Holy Father has gone to a lot of trouble to ensure that we traditionalists have greater access to the EF.**
Amen!
Denise1957:
You got my number!
Or maybe that which subscribes to your point of view?
I don’t know how one can reconcile refusing to accept the Scriptures and the Catechism, but then, I have seen a lot here on CAF.
Do you honestly believe that the Holy Father would allow and encourage heresy and devilishness to prevent schism? There is nothing that causes schism more! I can’t believe you would think that. Tell me I am misunderstanding.
Perhaps it might be more accurate to say that the work of the Holy Spirit to renew the Church should not be condemned because of the abuses present in the “movement”. The Holy Spirit works in the lives of individuals, and the Church is here to support and nourish that work. This is not, as has been rightly noted, dependent upon any “movement”.
It sounds like you don’t believe the testimony of the Scriptures about how the Holy Spirit manifests Himself in the Church. To say that the gifts of the Holy Spirit come from man is a kind of blasphemy, is it not?
Nothing can be further from the case. A counterfeit does not invalidate the genuine.
Of course! this is the main thing that is lacking in Protestant circles. Many ecclesial communities have no authorative structure, so abuses will run rampant.
I am confused what is meant by “movement” in this thread. The Church officially recognizes that the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit are valid and should be encouraged. The offices of the Renewal, the staff, and the missions of them are all approved. This was not done to prevent schism.
**
Amen!
You got my number!
Or maybe that which subscribes to your point of view?
I don’t know how one can reconcile refusing to accept the Scriptures and the Catechism, but then, I have seen a lot here on CAF.**
quote:
I don’t know how one can reconcile refusing to accept the Scriptues and the Catechism…"
There is nothing in Sacred Scripture or the Catechism which says that we have to accept CR. The Church does not say that we have to accept CR. Certain bishops or bishops’ conference may put out a statement which shows that we may or should support it, but that’s not the same as Church teaching. Do you understand this?
I think it is a just question, since it is such a strange phenomena. Sometimes the presence of the power of God is so strong, it overshadows a persons’ puny ability to stand on their own two feet.
I agree. What would you like to do?
Oh,not fair.:imsorry:
Yes.
This is sage advice.All i’m asking is please be careful
"
It might. What are you looking at? I could not access any of the links. Can you describe what is causing you concern? All I could see was people lifting up their hands. Is that a problem?Ok, that is helpful. Music does set an emotional tone, in Mass, as well as outside of it. During Christmas each year, a parish near here draws standing room only for the annual Christmas presentation, which is largely sacred hymns specific to the season, but also instrumentals.
It states that the Holy Spirit works through these ecclesial communities to bring people to Himself.
I agree. What “indicators” do you get from the photo above?
I will try looking at it again on another computer, but in general, rather than taking our cue from what might be abuses, I think it is more prudent to take our cue from the Magesterium, and those services that have been approved by the Bishops.
God commands us to worship Him with our whole heart, mind, soul, and strength. This includes the emotions. when the emotions are not focused on God, and subject to Him, the potential for abuse is more likely. I think you are right that following feelings is inherintly problematic. But this cannot be said of St. Paul, surely, who said:
I will come back to this on another machine. Thanks for posting the link.
We’re supposed to love God with our entire being. This includes your emotions. Sometimes we will be moved to tears, or laughter, or feelings of great jubilation, or feelings of great sorrow. This is all well and good. What’s important is that we don’t base our relationship with God off of emotions. That would be trying to build a church on waves. All it takes is for your emotions to change. We walk by faith, not by feelings.
