Traditionalist and Charismatic

[InquisitorMax]

I think you’ve answered my point.

You responded to my criticism that feelings were not to be trusted or indulged in, with the response that my feeling on this matter was not to be trusted. So feelings are not to be trusted.

This modern idea for ‘healing’ your feelings through indulging them is a dangerous fad, based on Freudian psychology, I’d guess. Revisit bad feelings and you make them stronger; revisit some false high and you have to ask; how different are you from a drug addict?

Feelings and thoughts are expressions of the soul. They are not its essence. They are
the essence of the Personality; the fretting thing that interacts with the World. Up one day, down the next, depending on how much sleep you’ve had, for example. Or whether you’ve let loose at a Charismatic service.

The giveaway for me is that people are doing queer things at Mass; like gabbling. At the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass? Forget it.

I’ve gone to a local Charismatic service. Singing, clapping. Whip yourself up. Same thing you get a rock concert. Cathartic, sure. Holy? Ha ha.

I had some experiences decades ago that were very powerful and affecting. And you know what?: they knocked me right off course into Gnosticism. I only realised recently how abhorrent I had become in the sight of God as a result.

Charismaticism is Protestantism’s answer to the sacramental void at its heart. It’s sad that Catholics are doing it, but not so strange it’s become popular post the iconoclasm of the 60’s onwards: “They have taken Him away … and we know not where they have laid Him”

 

[guanophore]

I think you’ve answered my point.

You responded to my criticism that feelings were not to be trusted or indulged in, with the response that my feeling on this matter was not to be trusted. So feelings are not to be trusted.

On the contrary, I think your feelings are telling you a great deal, and the message can be entirely trusted. One of the main purposes of emotion is to communicate, both to ourselves, and to others. Your feelings have done both. They communicate a avoidance, and you have supported the reasons you find that message a valid one. The fact that I understand the message differently than you do does not mean that the messenger cannot be trusted.

Emotions are a natural part of human existence, like our hands and our feet, they are part of us. Now if I am receiving a message of pain, for example, from my foot, that message is communicating something. Maybe my toe is still sore from having dropped my golf clubs on it over the holiday, or maybe I am having an episode of gout. Now I have a choice about what I wish to do with that message. As with many messages of the emotions, it can be ignored. Ignoring the message may be a dangerous and wrong response, however. I may have an infection of some kind that needs rather immediate attention.

My point is that, to say the emotions “cannot be trusted” is a mischaracterization of the meaning of emotion. It is what one does with the communication one receives that matters. If a person chooses to throw prudence to the wind,and act on an emotion with total impulsivity and lack of circumspection, then unpleasant results are likely to occur. Emotions, though and important part of our makeup, were not designed to be in charge of our existence.

This modern idea for ‘healing’ your feelings through indulging them is a dangerous fad, based on Freudian psychology, I’d guess. Revisit bad feelings and you make them stronger; revisit some false high and you have to ask; how different are you from a drug addict?

I think this is a valid complaint that may well have it’s roots in Freud. Sigmund, as a neurologist, was sent all the patients who were having physical symptoms that were handicapping them as a result of avoiding their feelings. He first saw a woman with an hysterical paralysis of her right arm. The doctors had established there was no physical cause for the malady. In talking to her, and listening to her feelings, he learned she was very angry at her husband and having dreams she wanted to stab him in his sleep. When she was able to express her frustration and rage, voila, her paralysis left, and psychiatry was born.

I think the question would be, why do you consider allowing feelings to exist, and function normally to be “induging” them. How did they get so marginalized as part of human existence that they are no longer permitted to do what God intended for them to do? I note you did not respond to the Scripture verses I quoted about saints experiencing emotions. Where they “indulgent”?

As to the question of revisiting a “false high”, yes, in addiction science they call this a “euphoric recall”, and it is considered part of the addictive process. But what about revisiting an authentic and pleasant memory? What if one looks at one’s wedding pictures, or childhood photos of their children, and experiences a sense of emotion? Is this indulgent? Is it harmfully “addictive”?

 Feelings and thoughts are expressions of the soul. They are not its essence. They are the essence of the Personality;

They express the essence, which is why one must bring them into worship, and into right relationship with God. God created the personality, and God wishes it to function to His glory, emotions and all.

the fretting thing that interacts with the World. Up one day, down the next, depending on how much sleep you’ve had, for example. Or whether you’ve let loose at a Charismatic service.

While I would stipulate that the personality does contain and is influenced by thoughts and feelings, and that the personality is the psychic structure that interacts with the world, that does not make it any less a part of the human person which God has created in His own likeness and image. Emotions can be up one day, and down the next, just like my gouty big toe, depending on my diet, my meds, and the number of clubs in my golf bag that fell on it. Should I cut off my toe because I don’t like the communication I am receiving? Equally, it is imprudent to amputate part of the personality because one is not comfortable with the messages one receives from the emotions.

The giveaway for me is that people are doing queer things at Mass; like gabbling. At the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass? Forget it.

Not sure what “gabbling” is in this context, but I will also stipulate that there have been many abuses of the liturgy. I was at one Mass (this was years ago now) where the gifts were brought to the altar by what appeared to be fairies dressed in leotards and veils dancing barefoot up the aisle.

 

[guanophore]

 I've gone to a local Charismatic service. Singing, clapping. Whip yourself up. Same thing you get a rock concert. Cathartic, sure. Holy? Ha ha.

Yes, it is indeed cathartic, which is why many persons fear it, it seems. As far as whipping onself up, this is also an important aspect of human experience. We are not always in the “mood” to worship and praise God, and we definitely need stirring. This is written about many times in the Psalms, where David strongly admonishes his soul to get with the program in praising God. One good thing about emotions is that they respond to such “stirring”, so that if the will and the intellect are applied to them, they are compelled to go along.

Ps 42:5-6
Why are you cast down, O my soul,
and why are you disquieted within me?

Hope in God; for I shall again praise him,
my help 6 and my God.
My soul is cast down within me,
therefore I remember thee

David tells his soul that being cast down will not work, and that he WILL praise the Lord. He takes charge over his despondency, and commands his emotions to hope in God.

Not only must we stir our own soul, but we can stir one anothter’s:

Heb 10:24-25
24 and** let us consider how to stir up one another **to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

When we meet together we are stirred, and encouraged. We build ourselves up in faith.

 I had some experiences decades ago that were very powerful and affecting. And you know what?: they knocked me right off course into Gnosticism. I only realised recently how abhorrent I had become in the sight of God as a result.

For which good reason we must be circumspect about our powerful and affecting experiences. The fact that they can lead us astray, however, does not make them wrong in and of themselves, any more than there is something intrinsically wrong with the pain in my toe. None of us can allow our powerful affectations away from God. But powerful affectation is the gift of God, and part of who we are. It is meant to be used in His service. For example:

Luke 22:14-16

14 And when the hour came, he sat at table, and the apostles with him. 15 And he said to them, “I have **earnestly desired **to eat this passover with you before I suffer; 16 for I tell you I shall not eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.”

Jesus is here expressing powerful affectation. This Gk . word “epithumia” is also used for “craving” or “strong urging”. Clearly, such an emotion can be either in the service of God, or otherwise.

How are we to have our powerful affectations transformed into the service of God if we refuse to feel them, or be aware of them?

Rom 12:2
2 Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

Charismaticism is Protestantism’s answer to the sacramental void at its heart.

I think there is some truth to this, but it does not explain the vast majority of Protestants that have the same attitude toward the Charismatic gifts that you do. There are critical voids among these ecclesial commuities, to be sure, and there is a natural hunger to join the emotions to God. In the absence of sacramental authenticity, the abuse can sure run rampant.

It’s sad that Catholics are doing it, but not so strange it’s become popular post the iconoclasm of the 60’s onwards: “They have taken Him away … and we know not where they have laid Him”

Your argument would hold water if so many charismatic Catholics were not also those who are daily communicants, and are first in line at that very thin confessonal (compared to the communion line). Last night, I was at a Eucharistic Adoration. As I was kneeling there, tongues of praise began to flow forth from me before I was aware of it. Since this happens to me during consecration and adoration, I am unable to separate my soul rejoicing before the Lord in this manner from His sacramental presence among us. Were I do do so, I would violate the Apostolic commandment:

1 Thess 5:15-21
16 Rejoice always, 17 pray constantly, 18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you. 19 Do not quench the Spirit, 20 do not despise prophesying, 21 but test everything; hold fast what is good…

 

[Denise1957]

Denise, do you consider the Catechism to be a reliable source of Magesterial Teaching? Pope JPII called it “a sure norm” for the faith.

800 Charisms are to be accepted with gratitude by the person who receives them and by all members of the Church as well. They are a wonderfully rich grace for the apostolic vitality and for the holiness of the entire Body of Christ, provided they really are genuine gifts of the Holy Spirit and are used in full conformity with authentic promptings of this same Spirit, that is, in keeping with charity, the true measure of all charisms.

You guys are always taking things out of context to prove a point. You should have included 801 in the above; here is part of what it says:

1. It is in this sense that discernment of Charisms is always necessary. No Charism is exempt from being referred and submitted to the Church’s shephards…"

How many Charsimatics always refer everything they do regarding supposed Charismatic gifts to the priest? The saints old did this…they went to their confessor, to make sure that what they were experiencing was from God. They did not use their own judgement in this matter. It is a Protestant mentality to think that you can do whatever you want regarding these supposed gifts.

 

[Denise1957]

It is not canonical, but neither is it a lay movement only. It crosses and is contained by many canonical orders and ordained clergy as well as religious. It cannot be compared to a canonical order or vowed living. It is probably closer to a spiritual practice or way of life such as the Brown Scapular.

Yet traditional Catholics do not go around telling everyone that we all have to wear (be enrolled in) the brown scapular. Charismatics believe that we all have to accept what they believe as absolutely necessary to hold the Catholic faith, and that we are going against the Church if we don’t accept CR. No one can say this about wearing the brown scapular. It is definately optional.

 

[vardaquinn]

gkupsidedown.blogspot.com/2007/04/charismatic-tridentine-mass_21.html I read this blogpost today about the interest of charismatics in the TLM. I believe it was Denise who called traditionalists people who did the TLM. In which case…

You guys are always taking things out of context to prove a point. You should have included 801 in the above; here is part of what it says:

1. It is in this sense that discernment of Charisms is always necessary. No Charism is exempt from being referred and submitted to the Church’s shephards…"

How many Charsimatics always refer everything they do regarding supposed Charismatic gifts to the priest? The saints old did this…they went to their confessor, to make sure that what they were experiencing was from God. They did not use their own judgement in this matter. It is a Protestant mentality to think that you can do whatever you want regarding these supposed gifts.

This is absolutely right! The priests are the ones who are supposed to discern charisms (and also nurture and foster them in their communities)!! I know MANY charismatics who go to their priest to help with discernment, including myself. A charismatic parish where many of my friends go to has a priest who is quite active in this regard. I’m sure there are many charismatic communities that do not do this, which I protest against.

Yet traditional Catholics do not go around telling everyone that we all have to wear (be enrolled in) the brown scapular. Charismatics believe that we all have to accept what they believe as absolutely necessary to hold the Catholic faith, and that we are going against the Church if we don’t accept CR. No one can say this about wearing the brown scapular. It is definately optional.

Yes, and joining the charismatic movement is optional. Having a charismatic spirituality is an essential part of being Catholic. I’m sure if we further categorized what a charismatic spirituality is (centering on the charisms of the Holy Spirit and being faithful to the graces of baptism and confirmation) you would agree with much of this.

The charismatic movement reminds us that we’re all supposed to be charismatic. Rather like, say, the Fransiscans remind us we’re all supposed to be living poverty.

@ InquisitorMax: You’re really not addressing charismatic movements, so much as ranting about emotionalism and the apparent dangers of experiencing emotions. Are you sure you left Gnosticism?

 

[vardaquinn]

@BigCat:

In fact, the beginning of the charismatic renewal happened at a Catholic retreat in 1967, in which they were examining the first chapters of the Acts of the Apostles. The Apostles had the gift of tongues. Modern charismatics have the gift of tongues. The Apostles went around healing the sick, modern charismatics go around healing the sick. The Apostles are docile to the inspirations of the Holy Spirit (for instance Philip being told to evangelize to the Ethiopian in the chariot) and what the Holy Spirit is telling them to do. Charismatics are as well. I can tell numerous stories that mirror perfectly stories in the Acts of the Apostles. Jesus tells them to do something, they do it, and stuff happens. What St. Justin Martyr describes here happens with charismatics:

“If you want proof that the Spirit of God, who was with your people and left you to come to us, come into our assemblies and there you will see Him cast out demons, heal the sick, and hear Him speak in tongues and prophesy.” - Justin Martyr

Or like St. Ireneus says here: . . . for which cause also his [Christ’s] true disciples having received grace
from him use it in his name for the benefit of the rest of men, even as
each has received the gift from him. For some drive out demons with
certainty and truth, so that often those who have themselves been
cleansed from the evil spirits believe and are in the church, and some
have foreknowledge of things to be, and visions and prophetic speech,
and others cure the sick by the laying on of hands and make them whole
and even as we have said, the dead have been raised and remained with
us for many years. And why should I say more? It is not possible to tell
the number of the gifts which the church throughout the whole world,
having received them from God in the name of Jesus Christ, who was
crucified under Pontius Pilate, uses each day for the benefit of the
heathen, deceiving none and making profit from none. For as it received
freely from God, it ministers also freely.

Just as also we hear many brethren in the church who have gifts of
prophecy, and who speak through the Spirit with all manner of tongues,
and who bring the hidden things of men into the clearness for the
common good and expound the mysteries of God. (Against Heresies)

This aptly describes what I know of charismatics (I know of at least one instance where someone was raised from the dead). Their lives are centered on Jesus Christ, particularly in the Eucharist (like the early Christians, meeting in the Temple area, and then going to someone’s house for the “breaking of the bread”, a practice central in their lives). They are orthodox, loyal to the Church and all her teachings. They also have great enthusiasm. This all comes a radical surrender to the working of the Holy Spirit in their lives. Do you think this is not traditional Catholicism?

 

[Denise1957]

gkupsidedown.blogspot.com/2007/04/charismatic-tridentine-mass_21.html I read this blogpost today about the interest of charismatics in the TLM. I believe it was Denise who called traditionalists people who did the TLM. In which case…

This is absolutely right! The priests are the ones who are supposed to discern charisms (and also nurture and foster them in their communities)!! I know MANY charismatics who go to their priest to help with discernment, including myself. A charismatic parish where many of my friends go to has a priest who is quite active in this regard. I’m sure there are many charismatic communities that do not do this, which I protest against.

Yes, and joining the charismatic movement is optional. Having a charismatic spirituality is an essential part of being Catholic. I’m sure if we further categorized what a charismatic spirituality is (centering on the charisms of the Holy Spirit and being faithful to the graces of baptism and confirmation) you would agree with much of this.

The charismatic movement reminds us that we’re all supposed to be charismatic. Rather like, say, the Fransiscans remind us we’re all supposed to be living poverty.

@ InquisitorMax: You’re really not addressing charismatic movements, so much as ranting about emotionalism and the apparent dangers of experiencing emotions. Are you sure you left Gnosticism?

I see a contradiction. You say that the Charismatic movement is optional, yet you also say that we’re all supposed to be Charismatic. The Church does not teach that we’re all supposed to be Charismatic. You know that. Regarding the Franciscans, the Church also does not teach that we’re all supposed to be living in poverty, as you have stated. For those who choose to live a life of poverty, with few possessions, that’s fine. But it does not go against Church teachings to have wealth. What we are asked to do is to not be too attached to wealth (rather than God), and that we should use wealth to help others.

I would like to add that there is nothing in Church teaching which says that priests are supposed to foster Charismatics gifts in their communites. It’s good that some Charismatics go to their priests for discernment, but priests are not obligated to promote Charismatic gifts.

 

[marie_teresa]

All this talk about having the gifts of the Holy Spirit…let’s talk about the gifts. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are Wisdom, Understanding, Knowledge, Counsel, Piety, Fortitude and Fear (of the Lord). We receive these gifts at Confirmation so we don’t need to go to a Charismatic Renewal meeting to receive these gifts. We should already have them if we are in a state of grace. The gifts are given to us to help us get to heaven not to impress others etc…

The 12 fruits of the Holy Spirit are charity, joy, peace, patience, benignity, goodness, long-suffering, mildness, faith, modesty, continency and chastity.

So the bottom line is that having the above gifts ours life should show some or all of the fruits.

No one is going to be healed unless it’s God’s will. There is merit to suffering if you offer it up and suffering united with prayer wins greater favors from God.(That’s why all priests should pray and offer penances for the conversion of their flock.)

Tongues doesn’t edify anyone but the person speaking in them and could actually be demonic. No one can definitively tell this.

The walk of faith is the surest path to heaven which mean going to mass and frequenting the sacraments. It’s nice if there are good feelings attached to this but not at all necessary.

 

[InquisitorMax]

I’m not recommending that you cut off emotions. I’m recommending that you do not elevate them in importance. You feel something. So what?

I’m not interested in bits of scripture, taken out of context, being used to bolster an argument. Especially the old testament. I don’t even bother reading them (TL;DR). King David has been wheeled out to promote dancing in Church. What lunacy, what decadence in the context of Western culture and the Roman Catholic church! How feeble a reference!

Admit it: you want to do these things because you like doing them, they make you feel good and if you have a ‘gift’ and another doesn’t, you feel pride. A bit of a knees-up with spiritual element mixed in; intoxicating! Especially for people who wouldn’t dream of going to a night-club.

In theory: We are supposed to acquire the gifts fo the Holy Spirit. Maybe.
In practice: I’m not sure how Charismatic practices help this end, seeing as how someone like Padre Pio fasted and mortified himself; he was an ascetic. As did most gifted saints I can think of. Along they way, they acquired spiritual powers. They denied themselves and gained a sublime return.

I read a book about Sufi mysticism in which they said their aim was not to instil ‘states’ in people, as these were either worthless or harmful. They wanted to induce clear reasoning in their students. From reading books on occultism, the more responsible authors say you shouldn’t seek after ‘powers’, as you’ll be an ordinary joe with psychic gifts: dangerous. In books on exorcism you read about demonically-influenced people having ‘gifts’ which, funnily enough, don’t lead to anything beneficial in the long run.

Yet Charismatic Catholics know better.

John Smith babbling something in French; it’s the Holy Spirit at work!

 

[vardaquinn]

I see a contradiction. You say that the Charismatic movement is optional, yet you also say that we’re all supposed to be Charismatic. The Church does not teach that we’re all supposed to be Charismatic. You know that.

We’re all supposed to live the spirit of poverty. We’re all supposed to live in the power of the Holy Spirit, using the gifts and charisms He has given us. I’ve GIVEN you many things from the Holy Fathers, Vatican II, the Catechism, and especially from Scripture that says this. That’s like saying “Well, since the Church doesn’t say we all have to be Fransiscans, or take a vow of poverty, I guess I don’t need to live the spirit of poverty”. You’re mixing your terms. We don’t have to join a movement, but we do need to live the spirituality of Pentecost.

I would like to add that there is nothing in Church teaching which says that priests are supposed to foster Charismatics gifts in their communites. It’s good that some Charismatics go to their priests for discernment, but priests are not obligated to promote Charismatic gifts

Oh really? Here, from Vatican II: “They are to test the spirits to see whether they are of God, discern with a sense of faith the manifold gifts, [charismata multiformia] both exalted and ordinary, that the laity have, acknowledge them gladly and foster them with care.” Presbyterorum ordinis, #9”.

@ Marie Teresa: I agree. But there are also the charisms that we each receive in different forms according to our role in the Church. See Corinthians 12. A document from Vatican II states:
“through receiving these gifts of grace [ex horum charismatum] …everyone of the faithful has the right and duty to exercise them in the church and in the world for the good of humanity and the building up of the Church.” Apostolicam actuositatem, #3

And also:

“so that all may more clearly recognize the talents with which God has enriched their souls, and then exercise the charismatic gifts which the Holy Spirit has conferred on them for the good of their sisters and brothers. Apostolicam actuositatem, # 30"

And also see Lumen Gentium paragraph 12. And the CCC paragraph 2003.

How could tongues be demonic, unless the person is possessed? And a bunch of orthodox Catholics, faithful to the Church teaching, in a state of grace through frequenting the sacraments, who are very enthusiastic about their faith are likely to be possessed?

I’m not recommending that you cut off emotions. I’m recommending that you do not elevate them in importance. You feel something. So what?

Read my above posts, which I address a balance to be found in emotions. You’re not addressing your arguments to what we’re saying at all.

I’m not interested in bits of scripture, taken out of context, being used to bolster an argument. Especially the old testament. I don’t even bother reading them

Oh, you have another way to interpret the Scriptures other than how the Church has interpreted them in the Catechism, documents from ecumenical councils, and encyclicals? I mean, especially Corinthians 12-14? How else would you interpret that?

And the fact that you don’t bother reading the Old Testament says a lot.

Admit it: you want to do these things because you like doing them, they make you feel good and if you have a ‘gift’ and another doesn’t, you feel pride. A bit of a knees-up with spiritual element mixed in; intoxicating! Especially for people who wouldn’t dream of going to a night-club.

Um… please, that is extraordinarily rude and presumptuous. You know nothing about my spiritual life to make any sort of statement like that. You know nothing about my motives for seeking spiritual gifts. I will not admit that. That is not the truth at all. I seek spiritual gifts because I want to do the will of God and build up the Church. I speak in tongues because I want to let the Holy Spirit pray in me and use me as His instrument. I open myself to the gifts of the Holy Spirit, because Scripture and the Church tell me too. You are extremely rude.

In theory: We are supposed to acquire the gifts fo the Holy Spirit. Maybe.
In practice: I’m not sure how Charismatic practices help this end, seeing as how someone like Padre Pio fasted and mortified himself; he was an ascetic. As did most gifted saints I can think of. Along they way, they acquired spiritual powers. They denied themselves and gained a sublime return.

And what basis do you have to suggest that charismatics don’t practice mortifications? You know the details of all their spiritual lives, right? You cannot make such generalizations and assumptions off of your own flawed observations. In any case, that is not at all true. The saints did not receive their gifts because they practice extreme penances. They received their gifts through surrender to the Holy Spirit. They practiced penances because of that surrender, to further draw them closer to the Holy Spirit. And usually the penances became much smaller and simpler the closer they got to God (look at St. Therese).

In books on exorcism you read about demonically-influenced people having ‘gifts’ which, funnily enough, don’t lead to anything beneficial in the long run.

Um… and so we’re not supposed to have gifts of the Holy Spirit, because demonically-influenced people have strange gifts??? You are not at all logical. Actually, because of the fact that demonically-influenced people have gifts says a lot - because Satan is essentially an imitator. And he mimics the actions of the Holy Spirit.

But your argument is absolutely irrational, and you’re basing all your theories off of anecdotal evidence, and not Church teaching.

 

[Denise1957]

We’re all supposed to live the spirit of poverty. We’re all supposed to live in the power of the Holy Spirit, using the gifts and charisms He has given us. I’ve GIVEN you many things from the Holy Fathers, Vatican II, the Catechism, and especially from Scripture that says this. That’s like saying “Well, since the Church doesn’t say we all have to be Fransiscans, or take a vow of poverty, I guess I don’t need to live the spirit of poverty”. You’re mixing your terms. We don’t have to join a movement, but we do need to live the spirituality of Pentecost.

Oh really? Here, from Vatican II: “They are to test the spirits to see whether they are of God, discern with a sense of faith the manifold gifts, [charismata multiformia] both exalted and ordinary, that the laity have, acknowledge them gladly and foster them with care.” Presbyterorum ordinis, #9”.

@ Marie Teresa: I agree. But there are also the charisms that we each receive in different forms according to our role in the Church. See Corinthians 12. A document from Vatican II states:
“through receiving these gifts of grace [ex horum charismatum] …everyone of the faithful has the right and duty to exercise them in the church and in the world for the good of humanity and the building up of the Church.” Apostolicam actuositatem, #3

And also:

“so that all may more clearly recognize the talents with which God has enriched their souls, and then exercise the charismatic gifts which the Holy Spirit has conferred on them for the good of their sisters and brothers. Apostolicam actuositatem, # 30"

And also see Lumen Gentium paragraph 12. And the CCC paragraph 2003.

How could tongues be demonic, unless the person is possessed? And a bunch of orthodox Catholics, faithful to the Church teaching, in a state of grace through frequenting the sacraments, who are very enthusiastic about their faith are likely to be possessed?

Read my above posts, which I address a balance to be found in emotions. You’re not addressing your arguments to what we’re saying at all.

Oh, you have another way to interpret the Scriptures other than how the Church has interpreted them in the Catechism, documents from ecumenical councils, and encyclicals? I mean, especially Corinthians 12-14? How else would you interpret that?

And the fact that you don’t bother reading the Old Testament says a lot.

Um… please, that is extraordinarily rude and presumptuous. You know nothing about my spiritual life to make any sort of statement like that. You know nothing about my motives for seeking spiritual gifts. I will not admit that. That is not the truth at all. I seek spiritual gifts because I want to do the will of God and build up the Church. I speak in tongues because I want to let the Holy Spirit pray in me and use me as His instrument. I open myself to the gifts of the Holy Spirit, because Scripture and the Church tell me too. You are extremely rude.

And what basis do you have to suggest that charismatics don’t practice mortifications? You know the details of all their spiritual lives, right? You cannot make such generalizations and assumptions off of your own flawed observations. In any case, that is not at all true. The saints did not receive their gifts because they practice extreme penances. They received their gifts through surrender to the Holy Spirit. They practiced penances because of that surrender, to further draw them closer to the Holy Spirit. And usually the penances became much smaller and simpler the closer they got to God (look at St. Therese).

Um… and so we’re not supposed to have gifts of the Holy Spirit, because demonically-influenced people have strange gifts??? You are not at all logical. Actually, because of the fact that demonically-influenced people have gifts says a lot - because Satan is essentially an imitator. And he mimics the actions of the Holy Spirit.

But your argument is absolutely irrational, and you’re basing all your theories off of anecdotal evidence, and not Church teaching.

But you didn’t intially say that we are to live the spirit of poverty; you said that we are supposed to be living poverty, which is different.

Regarding the gifts and charisms of the Holy Ghost, the Church teaches that we should cooperate with the graces given by the Holy Ghost for our sanctification, through frequent reception of the sacraments, staying true to Church teaching, staying in a state of grace through regular confession and penance. To my knowledge, the traditional teaching does not include the “gifts of the Holy Spirit” in regards to speaking in tongues, prophecy, or being slain in the spirit as imparting sanctifying grace. Perhaps you can show Church teaching which proves otherwise?

 

[InquisitorMax]

The presumption is that:

There exist gifts of the Holy Spirit;
Charismatics experience ‘states’;
Therefore these are gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Whereas what non-Charismatics see is babbling inside and outside of Mass, singing, enthusiasm and not much else.

There are levels of demonic influence: oppression, obsession and possession. And then there’s just plain going along with the crowd. And collective hysteria: ‘everyone in the room is hyped about this, I’ll be too’. The classic excuse for any recent innovation in Catholic liturgy is ‘It is the Holy Spirit at work amongst the people’. [sarcasm]He’s been busy these last few decades.[/sarcasm]

‘Surrender to the Holy Spirit’ is a phrase you can interpret any way you want. From a young age St. Padre Pio practiced mortifications. To suggest this began with ‘a surrender to the Holy Spirit’ is to communicate both nothing and anything the speaker wishes.

You make a sacrifice with a specific intention. You get something in return. You advance towards God, He comes out to meet you. No need to whoop it up and babble. That’s got more in common with Spiritualism and Voodoo than classic Catholicism.

 

[vardaquinn]

@ Denise: Living poverty = living the spirit of poverty. We’re all supposed to be living out a certain degree of poverty. Or chastity, say. Just because I haven’t taken a vow of complete chastity doesn’t mean I have to live a certain degree of chastity. This is just an analogy. Just because you don’t have to be part of a movement doesn’t mean that you don’t have to do something closely associated with the movement.

The Church doesn’t teach that these impart sanctifying grace, and I don’t see any charismatics teaching that either. It certainly does impart grace, but these aren’t sacramental - they spring from sacramental sanctifying grace (particularly baptism and confirmation). I have told you many times that being slain in the spirit is not a charism. Speaking in tongues and prophecy is - see Corinthians 12. I believe St. Thomas Aquinas has a whole section in the ST on “Prophecy and other Charisms”. The traditional teaching does include the gifts of the Holy Spirit - the charisms. It’s been that way since day one, and current Church teaching affirms this. These charisms usually are orientated towards service of the Church. And I mean… Scripture is packed full of prophecy. A good chunk of it is a selection of prophecies. I’ve given you many places where the Church teaches that it is not only through the sacraments and ministries of the Church that the Holy Spirit sanctifies and leads the people of God and enriches it with virtues, but also with special gifts where He wills.

@ InquisitorMax: You’re really kind of not addressing what we’re talking about and just persisting in your own misconceptions. There exists gifts of the Holy Spirit: words of wisdom and knowledge, discernment of spirits, miracles, healing, tongues, prophecy. Charismatics have these gifts and use them. Therefore these are gifts of the Holy Spirit. Listen to this talk. ctkcc.libsyn.com/rcia_charisms_of_the_holy_spirit_dr_mary_healy_5_2_10 She gives specific examples of all the charisms listed in Corinthians 12.

Any recent innovation by the Church in regards to the liturgy IS the work of the Holy Spirit. Any silly innovation made by individuals is not necessarily the work of the Holy Spirit. But the official changes in the liturgy are the work of the Holy Spirit, and if you can’t except that then you have deep theological problems.

I do think many charismatics might just be going with the crowd mentality. But I know I’m not.

You open yourself up to the gifts of the Holy Spirit, you pray for the gifts you think God wants to give you, you discern, you talk to your spiritual director, you use the gifts you know God has given you, and you actively seek to use your spiritual gifts for the upbuilding of the Church. God doesn’t say “Impress me! and then I’ll give you cool stuff”. That’s not how it works at ALL.

Your posts are very incoherent.

 

[guanophore]

You guys are always taking things out of context to prove a point. You should have included 801 in the above; here is part of what it says:

1. It is in this sense that discernment of Charisms is always necessary. No Charism is exempt from being referred and submitted to the Church’s shephards…"

The request was for an official statement that affirmed the Charismatic gifts. The reference is not taken out of context. the source and link was provided so the context can be clear.

I think you are just grasping at straws to cling to your belief that the charisms are not validly and officially endorsed.

How many Charsimatics always refer everything they do regarding supposed Charismatic gifts to the priest?

Not enough, but then, you are misunderstanding the Catechism. It does NOT say that “everything they do” must be discerned. It says that no Charism is exempt. You have been provided with many references and links to priests, bishops, and popes affirming the authenticity of the Charismatic work of the HS in the Church.

The saints old did this...they went to their confessor, to make sure that what they were experiencing was from God. They did not use their own judgement in this matter. It is a Protestant mentality to think that you can do whatever you want regarding these supposed gifts.

Yes, I agree. It is necessary to have this shepherding and discernment. It is something that has been lacking. The flock is hungry to be on fire for God, and in their zeal to ask for more of the Holy Spirit, they sometimes neglect this important step. However, that does not invalidate the gifts of the HS, or the Churches’ official affrmation of them as such.

 

[guanophore]

Yet traditional Catholics do not go around telling everyone that we all have to wear (be enrolled in) the brown scapular. Charismatics believe that we all have to accept what they believe as absolutely necessary to hold the Catholic faith, and that we are going against the Church if we don’t accept CR. No one can say this about wearing the brown scapular. It is definately optional.

Well, you are painting with an awfully broad brush here, Denise. In fact, I have never said anything of this kind to anyone. There may be Charismatics that do, but I don’t know any of them. If I became aware of them doing such a thing, I would admonish them vigorously.

I think if God gives people a gift, and they wish to go off and leave it by the side of the road, it is their loss, and they will answer only to Him for burying what He gave them.

 

[guanophore]

I see a contradiction. You say that the Charismatic movement is optional, yet you also say that we're all supposed to be Charismatic. The Church does not teach that we're all supposed to be Charismatic. You know that.

On the contrary, I know this is exactly what the Church teaches. The Church wrote, preserved, protected, promulgated and canonized the Bible. There is nothing in the NT that is not Catholic.

1 Cor 7:7
But each has his own special gift from God, one of one kind and one of another.

1 Cor 14:1-5
4:1 Make love your aim, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. 2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit. 3 On the other hand, he who prophesies speaks to men for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation. 4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than he who speaks in tongues, unless some one interprets, so that the church may be edified.

1 Cor 14:38-40
39 So, my brethren, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues; 40 but all things should be done decently and in order.

1 Cor 12:1-11
12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be uninformed. 2 You know that when you were heathen, you were led astray to dumb idols, however you may have been moved. 3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking by the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus be cursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except by the Holy Spirit.

4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of working, but it is the same God who inspires them all in every one. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are inspired by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

The Catholic is sealed by the Holy Spirit in Baptism, and at our confirmation, we take upon ourselves the responsibility to exercise the gifts God has given us for the benefit of the Body, and the world. We are a Pentecostal people, who are to walk in the power of the Holy Spirit.

The idea that any of us can walk with God without being animated by the Spirit of Pentecost is absurd.

Regarding the Franciscans, the Church also does not teach that we're all supposed to be living in poverty, as you have stated. For those who choose to live a life of poverty, with few possessions, that's fine. But it does not go against Church teachings to have wealth. What we are asked to do is to not be too attached to wealth (rather than God), and that we should use wealth to help others.

Yes. the various religious orders are expressions of specific Apsotolates. Not everyone is called to each one. God has given gifts to everyone, and each one has their own. They are given for the building up of the Body. For some, this is a vowed life, for others, something else. But for all, walking in the power of Pentecost is necessary to accomplish our vocations.

I would like to add that there is nothing in Church teaching which says that priests are supposed to foster Charismatics gifts in their communites.

You are mistaken, Denise. This is exactly the role of the pastor.

Eph 4:3-16
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. 7 But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore it is said,

“When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,
and he gave gifts to men.”

11 And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ; 14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. 15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every joint with which it is supplied, when each part is working properly, makes bodily growth and upbuilds itself in love.

The purpose of the pastors and teachers is to equip the saints. That means teaching them how to discern and put into practice the spiritual gifts that were given to them in baptism. It is a falsehood that the priests are supposed to do all the ministry. Their job is to equip the saints, who then do the work of the ministry.

It’s good that some Charismatics go to their priests for discernment, but priests are not obligated to promote Charismatic gifts.

I am interested to learn how you can avoid that conclusion when you read these scriptures. How do you justify your position that the priest is not the one who is given the gift by God to equip the saints?

 

[Denise1957]

Well, you are painting with an awfully broad brush here, Denise. In fact, I have never said anything of this kind to anyone. There may be Charismatics that do, but I don’t know any of them. If I became aware of them doing such a thing, I would admonish them vigorously.

I think if God gives people a gift, and they wish to go off and leave it by the side of the road, it is their loss, and they will answer only to Him for burying what He gave them.

So…you don’t believe that Catholics are going against the Church if they don’t accept CR, or that we have to accept what Charismatics believe as absolutely necessary to hold the Catholic faith? Okay…but you believe that we will have to answer to God for burying, or leaving by the side of the road, supposed “Gifts” that He wants to give us, correct?

Exactly how will we have to answer to Him, according to Church teaching?

 

[guanophore]

All this talk about having the gifts of the Holy Spirit…let’s talk about the gifts. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are Wisdom, Understanding, Knowledge, Counsel, Piety, Fortitude and Fear (of the Lord). We receive these gifts at Confirmation so we don’t need to go to a Charismatic Renewal meeting to receive these gifts. We should already have them if we are in a state of grace. The gifts are given to us to help us get to heaven not to impress others etc…

The 12 fruits of the Holy Spirit are charity, joy, peace, patience, benignity, goodness, long-suffering, mildness, faith, modesty, continency and chastity.

So the bottom line is that having the above gifts ours life should show some or all of the fruits.

You are absolutely right. No one goes to a prayer meeting to receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit. We go to take them to others, to use them in His service. We do already have them, even if we are not in a state of grace (one of the causes of abuses that happen) because they are given to us in baptism. They are for the service of God, and they can strengthen us in our walk with God so that we can get to heaven.

There is a qualitative difference, though, between these characterological gifts (fruit of the Spirit) and charismatic gifts. Charismatic gifts do not necessarily imply any maturity or personal sanctity on the part of the recipient. We need both types of gifts.

No one is going to be healed unless it's God's will. There is merit to suffering if you offer it up and suffering united with prayer wins greater favors from God.(That's why all priests should pray and offer penances for the conversion of their flock.)

Exactly! So, if a person is healed, then it is God’s will that they be so. If they are not, then He has a plan for their illness, and will perfect the person through it.

Tongues doesn’t edify anyone but the person speaking in them and could actually be demonic. No one can definitively tell this.

That depends upon which variety of tongues it is. There are some varieties that benefit others. That was the case on the day of the first Pentecost, don’t you think?

The walk of faith is the surest path to heaven which mean going to mass and frequenting the sacraments. It’s nice if there are good feelings attached to this but not at all necessary.

Frequent Mass attendance is not contradictory to a Spirit filled life that expresses the charismatic work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[guanophore]

I'm not recommending that you cut off emotions. I'm recommending that you do not elevate them in importance.

Good! Then we are in agreement.

 I'm not interested in bits of scripture, taken out of context, being used to bolster an argument.

This is good. It is a very poor way to understand the Teaching of the Apostles that is inflalibly preserved in the Church by the Holy Spirit. In fact, all the Scriptures must be taken in their proper context, and be understood in the light of Sacred Tradition, which is the lens of Apsotolic Teaching by and through which the meaning of Scripture is made clear.

if you have a ‘gift’ and another doesn’t, you feel pride.

I suppose that this is a very real possiblity. That is probably why God gave gifts to everyone, so that one person would not be at more risk in this way.

1 Cor 12:6-11
7 **To each is given **the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 **All these are inspired by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills. **

Clearly everyone has gifts, and the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. to each one individuallyl a portion is given, as the Spirit wills. Since they are given at baptism, every Catholic has them.

In theory: We are supposed to acquire the gifts fo the Holy Spirit. Maybe.

I think the Scripture and the catechism are clear that we don’t “acquire the gifts” in the sense that we go looking for them, but that they are part of our birthright. There is no need to go seeking after them, as they are instilled within us when we are washed in the bath of regeneration.

In practice: I’m not sure how Charismatic practices help this end, seeing as how someone like Padre Pio fasted and mortified himself; he was an ascetic. As did most gifted saints I can think of. Along they way, they acquired spiritual powers. They denied themselves and gained a sublime return.

How are the two opposed? Father Pio exercised the gift of knowledge powerfully.

... people having 'gifts' which, funnily enough, don't lead to anything beneficial in the long run.

If a person refuses to unwrap a gift, and use it, then of course the gift will not lead to anything beneficial, short or long term.

Yet Charismatic Catholics know better.

I think that some Catholics have learned to unwrap what was given in baptism. Not all of them would call themselves “charismatic”.