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Denise1957
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How is this a doctrine of the faith? Do you know what doctrines are?
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guanophore
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The New Testament, Denise, reflects the orthodox and Traditional doctrines of the Catholic faith. The whole NT was written by, for, and about Catholics.
ARe you honestly going to try to defend the position that an Apostle has commanded the faithful to do something contrary to the doctrines of the faith?
How is this Apostolic injunction any different than the command to “hold fast to the traditions”?
This instruction is given in the imperative mode. That means “that is an order”.
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Denise1957
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Here is doctrine as explained by William Most, and is posted on EWTN’s website. For Catholics not well-versed in doctrine, it should help to set the record straight. It says that the Charismatic gifts fall into the category of “extraordinary.”
ewtn.com/faith/teachings/spira4.htm
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vardaquinn
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It’s the Bible, from which we get our doctrines.
If you’re looking for a specific Catholic doctrine, something like the Real Presence in the Eucharist, that says: All Catholics should try to speak in tongues and prophesy, then you won’t find one. What you will find is: All Catholics should try to use the special charisms that the Holy Spirit has given them, and that the manifestation of the Holy Spirit is given to everyone for the upbuilding of the Church. Under that category, you will find writings of Church fathers (see St. John Chrysostom’s homily on Corinthinas), Doctors of the Church, and of course the Divine Word itself in Corinthinas 14 that urges all the faithful to speak in tongues and prophecy. It’s not essential, but it’s a great idea, and it would be ridiculous not to take advantage of them.
However. The charisms are not limited to these. It is the duty of each Catholic to use the charisms ("special gifts) the Holy Spirit has given them. We each have our own, in our own degree, according to what the Holy Spirit wants us to do and where we are in our own spiritual life. This charismatic dimension IS essential.
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Denise1957
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Vardaquinn, did you read the EWTN link that I just posted on the Charismatic gifts?
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vardaquinn
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And yet I’ve provided so many quotes from Vatican II, the Catechism, Church Fathers, and the Popes, the bishops, and above all the BIBLE that says that the charismatic gifts are given to each for the upbuilding of the Church.
The epistles of St. Paul, among other sources, tell us of charisms in the early Church. Vatican II recalls this teaching of the Apostle and applies it to the Church’s daily life. In the people of God, both the hierarchy and the laity share in charismatic gifts that enable them to perform ‘different works and offices’ for the good of mankind and of all Christians. Wojtla, Karol. Sources of Renewal The Implementation of Vatican II. 342-343.
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stevekochi
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exllent answers…some are very good…but this topic must be disscussed from its core…also read ucanews.com/2011/06/24/china-and-the-vatican-read-our-in-depth-12-month-report/
contains about how chinese deals with christians…
contains about how chinese deals with christians…
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vardaquinn
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“through receiving these gifts of grace [ex horum charismatum] …everyone of the faithful has the right and duty to exercise them in the church and in the world for the good of humanity and the building up of the Church.” Apostolicam actuositatem, #3
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Denise1957
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You have not shown that it is a part of Church doctrine that speaking in tongues and prophesying are an ordinary part of Catholic Christian life.
Rev. Willaim Most has written a good example of what the Church teaches on this issue (on the EWTN website). I’m going to take his word for it.
ewtn.com/faith/teachings/spira4.htm
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InquisitorMax
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‘The Spirit’ or The Holy Spirit are nowadays used to justify whatever novelty the speaker wishes to promote.
Traditionalist: ‘I object to this innovation’;
Liberal: ‘It is the Holy Spirit at work amongst the people’.
Traditionalist: ‘It has no precedent’;
Liberal: ‘It was done in Jerusalem 800 years ago’;
Traditionalist: ‘And it was stopped … why?’
Liberal: ‘The Magisterium / Conference Of Bishops / My Bishop allows it’;
Traditionalist: ‘That doesn’t mean we must or should do it’.
40 years later, Pope Pius XIII issues a Motu Proprio. The Barque of Peter sails on.
Traditionalist: ‘I object to this innovation’;
Liberal: ‘It is the Holy Spirit at work amongst the people’.
Traditionalist: ‘It has no precedent’;
Liberal: ‘It was done in Jerusalem 800 years ago’;
Traditionalist: ‘And it was stopped … why?’
Liberal: ‘The Magisterium / Conference Of Bishops / My Bishop allows it’;
Traditionalist: ‘That doesn’t mean we must or should do it’.
40 years later, Pope Pius XIII issues a Motu Proprio. The Barque of Peter sails on.
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whipp711
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Wow. What a thread.
As a psychologist, this type of quote…
As a psychologist, this type of quote…
usually motivates me to recommend doubling the thorazine meds.
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Denise1957
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Pope Pius Xlll? Hmmmm…
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Bigcat71
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For 37 pages this thread has wore on and on. On the one side the members and supporters of the Charismatic Renewal Movement quote scripture extensively, along the lines of the Adventists and Jehovas Witnesses, not as effectively as they do mind you, in an attempt to prove the validity, superiority and historical basis of their movement. On the other hand you have traditionalists and others saying a variety of thing concerning the place of charisms in todays church. There appears to be no happy medium here as neither side appears to be winning the argument at hand or convincing anyone as to the validity of their claims.
I will state for the record I believe in the charisms of the Holy Spirit. I believe that they exist, have always existed and always will exist. What I doubt and probably always will is the apparent belief that the Charismatic Renewal Movement is necessary for them to manifest themselves. In fact, what I see more and more from the members and supporters of the movement is a smug sense of superiority. Look at us, we are special. Our gifts have been unlocked. You need to do what we have done in order to release your gifts. We have the answer, we have the truth. We represent the original Church in the fullest sense of the word. We are indeed special as we walk hand in hand with the Apostles. It is disgraceful that you knuckle dragging traddie pharisees refuse to see that and humbly accept the truth and obvious superiority of our position.
And the really sad thing about the whole situation is that they bring this dispute onto a forum which is set up for discussing Tradional Roman Catholic spirituality What not start your own forum and the people who are interested can go there. Why try to hijack this one and tour it into charismatic central?
Could it be, as I suspect, that you loathe and despise the Traditional Mass and the people who adhere to it and to traditional Roman Catholicism? I think that is probably the real reason you bring your case here. That at least would make sense. After all the movement was founded during ecumenical meetings and prayer groups. Many protestants want nothing less than the destruction of the Roman Catholic faith in its entirity. They too hate, loathe and despise Catholicism. What better way to harm the faith than to plant a seed that extols the superiority of their particular beliefs into the Church, then watch it grow until it hopelessly divides the Church, as does appear to be happening.
Food for thought.
I will state for the record I believe in the charisms of the Holy Spirit. I believe that they exist, have always existed and always will exist. What I doubt and probably always will is the apparent belief that the Charismatic Renewal Movement is necessary for them to manifest themselves. In fact, what I see more and more from the members and supporters of the movement is a smug sense of superiority. Look at us, we are special. Our gifts have been unlocked. You need to do what we have done in order to release your gifts. We have the answer, we have the truth. We represent the original Church in the fullest sense of the word. We are indeed special as we walk hand in hand with the Apostles. It is disgraceful that you knuckle dragging traddie pharisees refuse to see that and humbly accept the truth and obvious superiority of our position.
And the really sad thing about the whole situation is that they bring this dispute onto a forum which is set up for discussing Tradional Roman Catholic spirituality What not start your own forum and the people who are interested can go there. Why try to hijack this one and tour it into charismatic central?
Could it be, as I suspect, that you loathe and despise the Traditional Mass and the people who adhere to it and to traditional Roman Catholicism? I think that is probably the real reason you bring your case here. That at least would make sense. After all the movement was founded during ecumenical meetings and prayer groups. Many protestants want nothing less than the destruction of the Roman Catholic faith in its entirity. They too hate, loathe and despise Catholicism. What better way to harm the faith than to plant a seed that extols the superiority of their particular beliefs into the Church, then watch it grow until it hopelessly divides the Church, as does appear to be happening.
Food for thought.
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vardaquinn
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We’re certainly not quoting just Scripture, and I certainly don’t see how quoting Scripture to prove a point could possibly be criticized, unless it in fact does not prove the point. Which nobody has even attempted to prove. In any case, I am hardly a member of the charismatic renewal movement. My experience with it is extremely limited. All I know is mostly from my own personal investigations into the validity of its claims.
I see this as well, and I am very irritated and frustrated by this.
Our spirituality is traditional Roman Catholic spirituality.
Absolutely not. I have a huge love for the TLM, and I try to attend it at least once a month. I believe I fully adhere to traditional Roman Catholicism. I’m sure most people in the world would deem me a traditionalist Catholic, if they didn’t know my views on the charismatic dimension anyway.
It was founded on a Catholic retreat in Pennsylvania. And I see nothing wrong with ecumenical meetings.
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vardaquinn
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@ InquistorMax:
I am not a liberal. I find it ridiculous that ultra-conservative Catholics deem anything they don’t like as “liberal”. It has huge precedent throughout Church history. Far longer than merely 800 years ago, try closer to 2000.
@ Denise: read my posts and read the quotes I’ve provided.
I am not a liberal. I find it ridiculous that ultra-conservative Catholics deem anything they don’t like as “liberal”. It has huge precedent throughout Church history. Far longer than merely 800 years ago, try closer to 2000.
@ Denise: read my posts and read the quotes I’ve provided.
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gtrenewed
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The first quote is from the OP - it doesn’t seem to me that he/she is part of the renewal.
Many of the traditional posters keep perpetuating falsehoods such as the above; even though they have been corrected over and over.
A few bad examples does not disqualify an entire group of people. There are many critics of the Catholic Church that point to bad examples of church leadership but that does not disqualify the papacy nor the priesthood. There are many critics of Christianity in general that point to Christians and say they act superior and “holier-than-thou”. This does not disqualify Christianity.
This is a tiresome arguement. Let it go. We are one in the Eucharist regardless of the liturgy. We each have our personal spirituality; no matter the language. We are Catholic and each has their place. We are submitted to the Pope; this should be the end of any arguement.
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Denise1957
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What falsehoods have traditionalists perpetuated over and over here? What is there to be corrected?
I liked Bigcat’s last post. The charismatics and their supporters here are extremely arrogant to come here and tell trads what it is that we are supposed to believe when they themselves have not been properly catechized.
It was mentioned that the charismatics should just start their own forum and I agree, but they are here to tell us what to do and what to believe, as if we know nothing about our faith. How rediculous! I see the same mentality that my Penatcostal family members had. They too had difficulty in seeing reality. I think that it had to do with all that speaking in tongues, as it tends to cloud a person’s critical thinking abilities. Take Sarah Palin, for instance. I like her as a person, but would not ever vote for her because she’s a Pentacostal. I believe that she would have difficulty making proper decisions.
I have never gone to a charismatic blog or website to verbally pound on them and tell them that they are going against the popes, bishops, and others if they don’t accept the Latin Mass and the traditional sacraments. I have my faults, but I have no interest in doing something like that. But I’ll not stop defending traditional Catholicism if they come here to tell us what to do and believe.
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gtrenewed
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We came here because of the OP, who to me does not appear to be Charismatic, asked the question. This is the first falsehood you are perpetuating - that Charismatics came here to “pound on you”.
Another is that we are arrogant. You do not know everyone Charismatic and so this is a falsehood.
You do not have to believe anything, but like you, we will defend the Charismatic Renewal against falsehoods.
You keep projecting your families Protestant Pentecostalism onto the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. This is an injustice that needs defending.
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Denise1957
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I never said that I know everyone charismatic. How can I know everyone charismatic? I only know the arrogant ones on this thread who tell me that I’m going against popes, bishops and Church teaching if I don’t accept that all Catholics should speak in tongues and prophesy. It’s just rediculous.
Regarding the projecting Protestant Pentacostalism onto CR, surely you are aware (putting aside my familial background) that CR had its start with the laying on of hands by Protestants. It’s documented, if you want me to provide you will a source.
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